 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: SecondTry
Date: 2023-07-03 18:14
I'll bet some of you have at some point tried to saw, say, a piece of thin plywood that wasn't clamped down, either adequately or at all.
The wood started to vibrate with the action of the saw, and the cutting action quickly became orders of magnitude less effective. As many of us realize, much of the saw's energy got transferred into the movement of the wood, that had it been held stationary, would have instead gone into more efficient cutting action.
It's with this basic principle of physics and vibrations that ligatures confuse me.
If the goal is to maximize the vibration of the tip of the reed from the energy of our expelled air--and maybe this is not the goal--wouldn't clamping down the thick end of the reed with as much of its surface clamped, and clamped as tightly as possible, prevent the maximum transfer of our wind energy from the vibrating tip into the base of the reed, preserving that energy for tip vibration and sound production?
And yet in my own personal anecdotal trials, I've found that while too inadequate securing of a reed will generate the suboptimal performance we'd all expect, that too much clamping of the base is no good either, and that some ligatures designed to grab less of the reed base's surface area work well, perhaps better than ligatures that grab considerable surface area of the reed's base-doing so very tightly.
Perhaps some of the energy of our air needs to reside in places other than tip? Or perhaps I'm misunderstanding the optimal physics of clamping a reed for sound production.
What are your thoughts here?
TIA
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-07-03 20:28
When I saw off a portion of my reed while on the mouthpiece I’ll be sure to tighten it down.
On a serious note I have experienced both very very loose and very very tight working optimally for the transfer of energy to the air column. It seems to change when the embouchure approach varies. I’d recommend trying both and quite frankly as many variations in between as you can muster.
Use what works best for you.
……….Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2023-07-03 21:57
Paul Aviles wrote:
> When I saw off a portion of my reed while on the mouthpiece
> I’ll be sure to tighten it down.
>
Maybe when we're cutting our Bb reeds down to use on Eb clarinet mouthpieces?
>
> On a serious note I have experienced both very very loose and
> very very tight working optimally for the transfer of energy to
> the air column. It seems to change when the embouchure
> approach varies. I’d recommend trying both and quite frankly
> as many variations in between as you can muster.
>
>
> Use what works best for you.
>
Seems like the same would be true for all those ligature styles.
I would only add that the physical setup includes the reed itself, which is also variable - the way it's profiled and the stiffness of the cane it's made from are meant to affect how much energy is transferred to the air column.
Karl
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Burt
Date: 2023-07-03 22:19
I agree with Second Try's reasoning, and always tighten my ligature to the max. I'm not strong enough to break the lig or deform the mouthpiece.
Burt
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-07-03 23:02
Well Karl here is the great mystery that is the clarinet. I had gone to a German bore D4-2 Gleichweit and Legere 2.75 reed just before a medical issue that kept me from playing for a month. I only have that one 2.75 and used it every day. Up to that point I played with the ligature very loose.
Once I returned to clarinet, it was the exact opposite! I needed to tighten down like gangbusters. Fortunately the Rovner Platinum does both really really well.
Can I explain this………no. But this is what happened. Go figure.
…………Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Selmer Buff
Date: 2023-07-03 23:52
Your initial premise is false. Cutting a poorly secured board with a saw is a resonate system without feedback. It is 'open-loop'. It acts like a taunt string or a bell and vibrates when you smack it.
A clarinet reed on a clarinet, et al, is a closed loop system. There is feedback from the acoustic wave developed in the cylinder. When the reed starts to move, a pressure wave propogates down the tube that bounces off the opening (because of the sudden impedance change) and returns to the reed, reinforcing its movement at a particular frequency. If you were to simply clamp a reed in a vise and blow on it, it wouldn't do much of anything without the feedback.
Also, when a reed moves in one direction, the mouthpiece moves in the opposite direction. The amount of movement by either, is dependent on the force applied and the masses of the two pieces in motion. Newton's third law: for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. How well the reed, ligature, and mouthpiece are coupled controls this interaction. This system is not very linear with many second-order effects, so a simple explanation is impossible.
This simplifies the solution greatly: find your sound and enjoy.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: lydian
Date: 2023-07-04 00:01
The reason overtightening is bad is because too much force will start to deform the reed, affecting the shape and the seal. There is no mysterious physics happening. So apply as much force as possible without causing deformation. Luckily, firm hand tightening usually hits the spot.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: SecondTry
Date: 2023-07-04 00:26
Selmer Buff wrote:
> Your initial premise is false.
Maybe you're correct, but perhaps more aptly stated I failed to account for the fact that air column resistance is necessary for the reed to vibrate, so my analogy with plywood and a saw is limited but I'm not sure that it's (that) off. Both the saw and air column apply energy to a spring form, plywood and reed respectfully.
But even in the closed loop system you describe, the reed is bound to vibrate better when less of the energy available to make that reed move is transferred down to its looser base, right? Again, it's in open system analogy, but presented with two identical diving boards wouldn't the one with less than completely tight bolts at its base spring less than the fully secured diving board, given the same body weight applied to each and at the same distal point to where the board is attached?
In fact this might comport well with the idea that Paul, having taken a break from playing for a bit, and perhaps not at the peak of muscle tone (even though I doubt he lost much in a month) might find a more clamped down reed capable of vibrating more than a looser one given a similar strength air column.
As for Newton's 3rd law, sure, there's an equal opposite force applied to all things gripping the reed, which includes the mouthpiece ligature and player holding down that mouthpiece which is holding down that reed. But that mass is so much greater than that of the reed, I'm not sure its much to consider. Maybe that's wrong.
Lydian: I really doubt that a stronger ligature that is affixed to a relatively flat reed on a flat mouthpiece table would find that reed deforming much. I could see your point if the ligature clamped down over the mouthpiece window.
As I've read Karl say in the past, and laughed at in similar conclusion, I often find a thumb (while trying a reed) to be the ultimate ligature, much that I does tie up a hand and effect my clarinet play. 
Post Edited (2023-07-04 00:28)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: lydian
Date: 2023-07-04 01:02
SecondTry,
No ligature can apply perfectly even force. Just one spot of slightly more or less force can create a leak. Like you, I’ve played woodwinds for around 50 years on countless instruments using many different reeds and ligatures. One constant is that both under tightening and over tightening negatively affects reed response. I can do a simple pop test on an over tightened ligature, and they either don’t seal, or the tip is no longer perfectly flat. Regardless, if you experiment, you’ll find that too much force compromises the reed in some way mainly because cane simply can’t take a lot of force without changing shape.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: SecondTry
Date: 2023-07-04 06:52
lydian wrote:
> SecondTry,
>
> No ligature can apply perfectly even force. Just one spot of
> slightly more or less force can create a leak. Like you, I’ve
> played woodwinds for around 50 years on countless instruments
> using many different reeds and ligatures. One constant is that
> both under tightening and over tightening negatively affects
> reed response. I can do a simple pop test on an over tightened
> ligature, and they either don’t seal, or the tip is no longer
> perfectly flat. Regardless, if you experiment, you’ll find
> that too much force compromises the reed in some way mainly
> because cane simply can’t take a lot of force without
> changing shape.
Ok. I guess any improvement I get in reed stability through clamping has its limits at a point where reed deformity presents more of a negative.
I'll certainly concur, and the basis for this thread, that at a point, increased clamping does not, at the very least, improve things, is not also make them worse. 
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: spikey1973
Date: 2023-07-06 05:05
@ secondtry:
Quote\
As I've read Karl say in the past, and laughed at in similar conclusion, I often find a thumb (while trying a reed) to be the ultimate ligature, much that I does tie up a hand and effect my clarinet play.
quote..
maybe we should think about hiring someone like a golf buddy, but then a clarinet buddy that holds our reeds firm while we play..
or would that turn out to be something like our father in law pushing against that open door while you try to turn in a vice from the other side..
we all know that he can put in all the power he has, but he still won't be as half as good as you doing it yourself with that completely tired left hand that wouldn't be able to push a marble...
Anyway I agree, a simple thumb is a great ligature.. darn why can't we just have three of them..
kind greats
Matt
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-07-08 22:18
Well!...I'm going to start breeding pigmy boa constrictors......better get in there quick with your orders. They come in.....a sort of snake skin finish.....your old Silversteins can be exchanged at scrap metal value ...Ha-ha !
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-07-08 23:17
Oh!.....and mounting these ligatures could hardly be more straightforward.
Just disguise your mouthpiece as the rodent of your choice . These ligatures NEVER come loose while you're playing, because they think you're trying to eat their dinner .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
