 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2020-09-09 00:28
My alto sax student was playing a passage that went basically up a C7 chord to C6 and back down. She played it with the bis Bb and the normal C (LH 2nd finger). I noticed it wasn't really smooth and suggested she use the RH side key for C. She asked if it would be in tune, since she had the bis key pressed along with LH 1st finger B. I had never really thought about it - I'm a clarinetist at heart and don't often use the bis fingering unless I'm thinking about it.
So my quick question is, *should* that fingering (bis,LH1, side C key) be in tune? The quick answer should have been to just try it. I tried it on my alto and the C sounded fine. Then she tried it on hers and it was noticeably flat. Is it really instrument specific? Is mine the aberrant one for being in tune?
Karl
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2020-09-09 00:36
You can't use the Bis Bb fingering with the side C key as that will make the side C fingering flat - it's not designed to be used this way.
Although it's better when there's Bb-C or C-Bb to use the regular oxo|ooo for C and the side Bb fingering for Bb.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2020-09-09 00:38)
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2020-09-09 00:58
This might sound dumb, but I have never heard of the side Bb key on sax (or clarinet) being called "bis". What does that stand for?
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Author: Chris_C ★2017
Date: 2020-09-09 01:41
bis is French for the letter "b". Used in European documents for an update to a document for example - version 3bis.
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2020-09-09 02:15
Thanks Chris. I'm in Canada 43 years and didn't know that. Do know a lot of Spanish though........
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
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Author: brycon
Date: 2020-09-09 03:00
I very rarely use right-hand C on saxophone (I think of it more as a trill fingering). On my Selmer, it's very flat. Moreover, depending on the volume, the middle-finger C, which is sharper, can be flat as well (so flat that I often use the Bb side key to raise its pitch). I'd finger the passage as Chris says.
Post Edited (2020-09-09 19:12)
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Author: smokindok
Date: 2020-09-09 04:06
Just to be sure there is no misunderstanding...
Tom H said:
"This might sound dumb, but I have never heard of the side Bb key on sax (or clarinet) being called "bis"."
The bis key is not the side Bb key. The bis key is a little key located between the LH1 B key and the LH2 A(or C) key. It is fingered using LH1.
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Author: smokindok
Date: 2020-09-09 04:19
Chris P.'s assessment of the fingering is correct, in my opinion. (As a doubler spending much more time on saxes than I would prefer. Or at least used to before the theaters closed due to the virus.)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2020-09-09 04:32
Chris P wrote:
> You can't use the Bis Bb fingering with the side C key as that
> will make the side C fingering flat - it's not designed to be
> used this way.
>
OK. My pre-1950s Conn is the outlier. It actually does play a very good C that way.
> Although it's better when there's Bb-C or C-Bb to use the
> regular oxo|ooo for C and the side Bb fingering for Bb.
>
That's the way I've always done it and would do it. This girl started out (at my recommendation) with a real, very good sax player and seems to have become very committed to the bis key. Unfortunately, her sax teacher went digital with COVID-19, and since I'm still teaching this one girl in person (with appropriate distancing), her mom asked me to teach her sax also (in separate lessons). This isn't really the forum to discuss good sax habits, but suffice it to say I tend to approach sax technique as if it were a clarinet.
Karl
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2020-09-09 04:38
Tom H wrote:
> This might sound dumb, but I have never heard of the side Bb
> key on sax (or clarinet) being called "bis".
It's not the side Bb, it's the little key right under the LH1 B key. You hold both keys down with LH1 to play Bb, mostly in passages that use Bb and not B-natural.
Karl
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2020-09-09 04:41
brycon wrote:
> I very rarely use right-hand C on saxophone (I think of it more
> as a trill fingering). On my Selmer, it's very flat.
Interesting. The lower octave (C5) is flat on my instrument as well, but RH C6 really sounds fine. [shrug]
Karl
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2020-09-09 04:53
I've been playing saxes semi-professionally for 40+ years and have always used the side C fingering more often than the l.h. middle finger. YES the side fingerings should be perfectly in tune. Often they are flat because the key cup heights are set too low, even with no cork bumper at all (i.e. metal-to-metal contact of the key and body of the instrument). I often file some metal off the "leg" end of those side keys to allow them to open higher.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2020-09-09 11:18
If the side C is flat next to the B or open C#, then open both the side C and Bb keys together. The side C fingering on my Yamaha 875EX alto is on the flattish side, but can be sharpened by opening the side Bb along with it.
I primarily use the Bis Bb fingering as that's a nice clear Bb (x'oo|ooo) and has the same venting and clarity as the side Bb (xxo|Side Bb ooo) compared to long Bb (xoo|xoo) which is slightly veiled, but is useful just as it is on clarinet for any arpeggios or passages containing F-Bb or F#/Gb-A#/Bb.
Open C# is often flat on some saxes and that can be sharpened by holding down LH3 and the 8ve key which opens the lower 8ve vent. And open C#-D can be played with C# as 8ve oox|xxx and then put down LH fingers 1 and 2 for the D if you're going up, otherwise use the palm Eb key for the D if that's the highest note in the passage as that's much smoother and you're still keeping the same tone quality as the other lower register LH notes.
Just like on clarinet, prepare for leaps across the registers for smoothness instead of all fingers off, all fingers on for C# to upper D and higher which can make things sound lumpy. No-one wants lumpy, or a flat open C# next to a heavy, percussive upper register D.
Those fingerings won't work on most soprano saxes (except Yamaha 475, 675 and 875/875EX sopranos) and Selmer SIII altos where C# has to be played open because of the compensating mechanism to flatten high C#.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2020-09-09 21:54)
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Author: Djudy
Date: 2020-09-09 15:00
In France, 'bis' is an encore (musical performance) or a second of something (as in a street address that has 2 entrances, the regular one and the 'bis'). A fingering called 'bis' makes more sense in this interpretation.
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Author: AndyW
Date: 2020-09-09 21:21
playing C5 in an ascending arpeggio with the side key puts your fingers out of position for the following E5.
o x o C6 leads nicely to a ‘front’ E6 (if your arpeggio is going that high or higher)
I’d play the C7 arpeggios with side Bb and o x o in the left hand for the C.
I grabbed a soprano sax, adding bis key to a side-key C lowers its pitch by around 20 or 25 cents in both registers (with no voicing correction).
-A-
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