 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Johnny Galaga
Date: 2020-04-14 03:58
If you write this for a bass clarinet:
![[G4]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/g4.gif)
Is that the same as this on a regular clarinet:
![[G3]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/g3.gif)
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Author: oian
Date: 2020-04-14 04:38
I play a Bb Bass clarinet. If I play the note shown in your top diagram (G) it will sound an octave lower than the sound of that note played on a "regular" Bb clarinet also a (G). This is only true if both of the clarinets are Bb instruments. So the answer to your question is yes, if I finger the top diagram and you finger the bottom diagram on a " regular" clarinet we will be playing the same note. With the same fingering the Bass clarinet sounds one octave lower than a regular clarinet.
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Author: Johnny Galaga
Date: 2020-04-15 02:01
Thank you. And if I wanted write the note in bass clef, is that the space just over line where the 2 little dots are?
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2020-04-15 08:11
>> But in the "French" system, bass clef isn't used <<
I've played pieces composed by two different French composers, both happen to be some of the best bass clarinet players in addition to being composers. Their music, hand written by themselves, was in both bass and treble clef, with the bass clef parts written one tone higher, same as the German system you described, and the treble clef parts were written a 9th above, same fingerings as Bb clarinet.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2020-04-15 16:55
clarnibass wrote:
> >> But in the "French" system, bass clef isn't used <<
>
> I've played pieces composed by two different French composers,
> both happen to be some of the best bass clarinet players in
> addition to being composers.
I don't doubt that at all.
I confess I used Walter Piston's Orchestration as a check on the terminology, since I couldn't myself remember which was which. The two names don't seem to have much to do with who the composer is/was or where the music was composed. César Franck used bass clef and, when he used treble, it seems clear that it's only a step above the intended pitch (e.g. Psyche). Richard Strauss wrote bass clarinet parts in treble clef, a ninth higher than the sounding pitch. Mahler also wrote, alla "French" notation, in treble a ninth higher. So, at least in those three examples the terms French and German seem contradictory, and I don't doubt at all that there are composers who use "German" notation but transpose the treble clef parts a ninth - I've seen a few myself, though I don't remember the composers or titles.
So I can't imagine where the two names came from, and it seems to have puzzled Piston, too.
In orchestral music written in bass clef you really have to look at the context and decide where the composer meant for treble clef notes to sound.
Just to satisfy my own curiosity, has anyone seen a piece for modern band (let's not go back to 19th century wind pieces) written in bass clef? I can't remember any in my experience.
Karl
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2020-04-15 17:34
I have an article about this on my website explaining how it's written when composers write for it in the bass clef because some composers understood it and some didn't. You will see some explanations of those that went from one clef to another without realizing the difference. As I explain, if it's written in the bass clef and then goes to the treble clef temporarily it should be played an octave high so it sounds as written as it does in the bass clef. Some got it, some didn't. I have a better explanation and examples on my site.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: rmk54
Date: 2020-04-15 19:27
As I explain, if it's written in the bass clef and then goes to the treble clef temporarily it should be played an octave high so it sounds as written as it does in the bass clef.
----------------------------------------
Unless you are playing Rite of Spring...
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-04-15 19:32
Strauss used the tenor clef and avoided all those problems!
see Death and Transfiguration
.............Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2020-04-15 19:33)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2020-04-15 20:30
Paul Aviles wrote:
> Strauss used the tenor clef and avoided all those problems!
>
>
>
> see Death and Transfiguration
>
I had forgotten that he used bass clef in Death and Transfiguration, which I played on bass, I think, about 50 years ago. I was thinking about Till, Don Juan and Don Quixote, which I've played and are entirely treble clef.
Where is the tenor clef in D&T? There are treble clef passages in the Kalmus part I'm looking at, and they seem pretty clearly to be written a step above the intended concert pitch. Do you have an edition that uses tenor clef?
Karl
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2020-04-15 23:58
Paul Aviles said, Strauss used the tenor clef and avoided all those problems!
I've played that piece a dozen times, not tenor clef. I've played every orchestral work he wrote, including his arrangements of his Rosenkavilier and the opera and never came across that clef. Syomphonia Domestica is also in Bass clef but he understands what to do when he goes high into the treble clef. If the tenor clef are in some scores they are not in the parts.
It is amazing how many composers sometimes got the rule about switching clefs wrong. Even Stravinsky in his earliere version of Petrushka. He's not the only one, I mentioned a few other example on my website page. It's possible some new editions have corrected some but not the ones i've played.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2020-04-16 09:56
>> has anyone seen a piece for modern band (let's not go back to 19th century wind pieces) written in bass clef? <<
Not for band, but the pieces I mentioned were composed in the late 80s and early to mid 90s.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-04-16 15:21
Unfortunately my experience with Tod und Verklarung was back in the 70's and I do not recall the publisher. It was on page two where the bass clarinet has the running triple figure up into the stratosphere. The reason that memory stuck out to me because I was hired to replace a dead bass clarinet player a week before a series of concerts and my first thought was....."what the hell cleff is that?!!?"
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2020-04-16 17:36
Paul Aviles, I can't imagine who the publisher was. I joined the BSO in 63 and the part they already had did not have that clef and I used that part all my career. That passage is at letter T and it goes from the bass clef to the treble clef for a few measures and then back to bass clef. It's even in the Strauss excerpt book #3 which I owned ever since was in conservatory. It could be that you're just mistaken or it was a very strange publication. It's a mystery for sure. Take care.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: rmk54
Date: 2020-04-16 18:50
Maybe he was given a bassoon part and didn't notice...
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-04-16 21:32
Definitely had the traditional solo introducing the last calm before the last series of "spasms."
Good thought though. A trombonist friend of mine identified the mystery clef for me at the time. I had just come off a run of "Fiddler on the Roof" and was much more cocky than knowledgeable. Now I'm just unknowledgeable.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2020-04-17 08:20
>> Strauss used the tenor clef and avoided all those problems! <<
Unclear if this really happened... whether it was him or maybe some publisher... but either way it's a great method. I always cut my hand off if two different fingers hurt.
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Author: rmk54
Date: 2020-04-17 17:25
Definitely had the traditional solo introducing the last calm before the last series of "spasms."
------------------------------------------
I wonder if the Honegger Symphony No.3 was on that program and you are conflating the two pieces. That work *does* have some tenor clef in the bass clarinet part, at least in the score.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2020-04-17 17:28
clarnibass wrote:
> >> Strauss used the tenor clef and avoided all those problems!
> <<
>
> ... but either way it's a great method. I always
> cut my hand off if two different fingers hurt.
I like that!
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-04-18 00:41
I think in the end that the transition from bass to tenor clef makes more sense, since a linear transition to treble would force you to sound up an octave higher than written.
Anyway....program:
Rossini - Die Diebisch Elster
Strauss - Tod und Verklarung
Shostakovich - Symphonie Nr. 1
There may have been one more piece but that also is lost to the sands of time.
I'm just a little surprised at the number of folks willing to believe it didn't happen
Nay sayers!
................Paul Aviles
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2020-04-18 08:12
>> I think in the end that the transition from bass to tenor clef makes more sense, since a linear transition to treble would force you to sound up an octave higher than written. <<
Have to disagree. Regardless of how the F (bass) clef would be written (and it's always just a 2nd transposition really), pretty much all bass clarinetists (at least 99%) are used to playing the G (treble) clef a 9th above, same fingerings as a regular clarinet. That's the most common and usual transposition and fingering. You can put this in the middle of any other clefs and transpositions and it would still be the easiest.
It's only less sensible to not use this clef/fingering and especially replacing with one that almost no clarinetist ever uses.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-04-18 16:24
I suppose what I meant was, if you have a passage that is running out of bass clef going up to ledger lines, the next notes to use on a treble clef would be close to the top of that clef (where the notes would be normally played). A tenor clef gives you a new staff to use before you run out of room.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2020-04-18 18:00
clarnibass wrote:
> Have to disagree. Regardless of how the F (bass) clef would be
> written (and it's always just a 2nd transposition really),
Piston says when a bass clef part shifts to treble clef, the transposition remains a 2nd. And in Death and Transfiguration, it is pretty clear that the treble clef transposition is a 2nd, not a ninth.
I haven't played enough bass parts that switched clefs to know if Piston was wrong historically or if the young Strauss was an outlier - his later bass parts stay in treble clef written a 9th above concert pitch. I have played more obscure pieces where I had to look at the score - the doublings, mostly - to decide what octave was intended. In general, if you've made a switch at bass clef F to avoid a third leger line, you're already at the top of the treble staff (F5) if you transpose a ninth, so within a very few ascending notes you'd again be in leger lines. So, it seems as if a 2nd would serve the purpose better.
In any case, using tenor clef instead of treble doesn't seem like a worthwhile solution to the problem of avoiding leger lines, and even assuming that there's an early edition of D&T out there that did it, it was happily not an idea that caught on.
Karl
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2020-04-19 08:45
>> Piston says... shifts to treble clef, the transposition remains a 2nd. <<
>> his later bass parts stay in treble clef written a 9th above concert pitch. <<
I guess we don't know for sure, but the original question sounded like it was referring to writing it, not how any specific piece is already written.
It reminds me when a friend, excellent instrument repairer, asked a company why they were using the pads they were using. The answer was that they have always used them...
If you need it to read the music of any piece correctly, yes just figure out how it is supposed to be played.
Beyond that, and that's the real question, it's best to consider what makes the most sense. It's worth knowing the history but it doesn't mean the way it was mostly done is necessarily the best.
>> it seems as if a 2nd would serve the purpose better. <<
The question is what is the purpose? I'd say it is to write it so it's the easiest for the player to play it. It could make sense to not use bass clef at all. Almost all bass clarinetists are... clarinetists. A low C bass clarinet is just one ledger line more than a soprano clarinet. Low Eb bass has no more ledger lines.
If you do use both clefs, and you want to avoid ledger lines (even though almost all of them are the same for soprano clarinet, where you'd always use them), then it's better to use the bass clef as "filler" and the treble clef as the main clef. i.e. use treble clef and change to bass for the lowest range rather than the opposite.
Clarinetists being used to treble clef with the clarinet fingerings outweigh all the other considerations.
Some bass clarinetists might be used to bass clef (2nd above) about as much, so no problem to use both, but why introduce a third transposition (2nd above in treble clef).
Or tenor clef which almost no clarinetist ever read.
IMO making it easier to composers, arrangers, etc. to write it was far less important even when everything was written by hand, but with most using computers now it's not even a question anymore.
Why is it such a big deal with bass clarinet but never even considered an issue with soprano clarinets, even though the written range is essentially the same (except one extra ledger line). Bass being more in that low range isn't a good reason.
There are a few exceptions I guess... but even then there are better solutions probably.
For the very high range, you could always add 8va, but clarinetists are really used to many ledger lines above the staff anyway.
Some doublers might not be used to ledger lines below the staff (e.g. sax players), but only if they only play bass and not soprano clarinet, and it's likely they would do better with that than bass clef.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2020-04-19 17:42
I'm speaking from 51 years experience as a profession bass clarinet player that has played all the standard repertoire many times over and a lot of non standard as well. Read my website page on bass clarinet, that's what it is, period. Case closed.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
Post Edited (2020-04-19 17:43)
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The Clarinet Pages
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![[B5]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/b5.gif)
would sound ![[A5]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/a5.gif)
. I say *by convention* because I've seen bass parts that I strongly suspected didn't follow the normal practice.![[G5]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/g5.gif)
sounds ![[F4]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/f4.gif)
. Band music, where bass clef isn't conventionally used at all for bass clarinet parts as far as I've ever seen, is always written this way (treble clef a ninth higher than sounding pitch).