 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Summer22
Date: 2018-05-23 02:50
Hi All -
I have been playing with the same Gigliotti P facing mouthpiece for the past couple decades (with a Leblanc Concerto). When I was playing a ton in college I used V12 4.5 reeds and liked this setup a lot. Now that I am playing far less frequently my embouchure isn't what it was in my younger days and I struggle to sound how I want with this closed facing / harder reed combo (and also don't feel like this mouthpiece is great for me with a softer reed). I only play a couple hours a week in a community orchestra now.
Which Vandoren mouthpiece is most similar to the Gigliotti P? The M13? Should I move towards an option with a slightly more open facing? I don't live in a location where I can easily go try all the M15/M30/5RV options in person so I'm not sure where to start in ordering a couple Vandoren options to try. I like the Gigliotti mouthpiece a lot in general but now that I'm just playing casually I'd like to be able to play on a slightly softer reed with a clear sound without too much effort. All recommendations welcome!
Thanks!
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Author: Ed
Date: 2018-05-23 03:35
In the Vandoren line, perhaps M13 lyre or M15. You might also try the D'Addario Reserve, which tend to play with a nice focus. If you wish to spend a bit more, I would suggest looking at the mouthpieces by Clark Fobes. He makes great pieces that are quite responsive.
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2018-05-23 04:14
M13 Lyre is easy to play. M15 is great but takes a little more effort to control.
Steve Ocone
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Author: vintschevski
Date: 2018-05-23 10:24
I would agree that the Vandoren M13 Lyre would be similar to the Gigliotti P, but I'm not sure that it would be any easier to play V12 4.5s on the Vandoren. (I've played both mouthpieces with 4.5s and 5s.) My humble recommendation would be to try the Krass V1 mouthpiece - so easy to play V12 4.5s on that and the sound is richer and projects better as well.
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Author: sonicbang
Date: 2018-05-23 10:38
M15 has a longer facing than the M13 or M13 Lyre, thus it can be played with harder reeds. Personally I think than anything harder than a V12 3.5 or 3.5+ on an M13 Lyre would make an airy or noisy sound. I think an M15 woule be somewhat more similar to the Gigliotti P. I played on all aforementioned mouthpieces a few years ago so I can compare them directly. Of course all of this is highly personal opinion.
Mark
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Author: vintschevski
Date: 2018-05-23 12:15
"Personally I think than anything harder than a V12 3.5 or 3.5+ on an M13 Lyre would make an airy or noisy sound."
That hasn't been my experience, V12 4.5s and 5s sound fine on an M13 Lyre, and Paul Aviles has in the past supplied this link to Eugene Mondie playing V12 5+s on an M13 Lyre:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yK4aXpjSxA&feature=youtu.be
The point I wished to make in my earlier comments is that I don't find the M13 Lyre any easier to play such reeds on than the Gigliotti P, but on the Krass mouthpiece it certainly is easier (for me, at least) - and the tone is even better.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2018-05-23 17:09
I don't think Summer is looking for a replacement for the Gigliotti P that will allow the harder reeds. He/she is looking for a mouthpiece that will accept and work well with something softer.
The P facing is long (for a French-style mouthpiece) and also quite close. You might find that you can get better results using slightly softer reeds with a Gigliotti P34, which has the same tip opening but has a curve that's a couple of millimeters shorter than the P facing. The shorter curve will provide a little more resistance and will be less easily closed off with a softer reed - maybe a 3-1/2 or 3.5+ (in a brand that offers quarter strengths).
The thing about moving from a Gigliotti to anything else, regardless of the facing, is that the internal dimensions are unlike most other mouthpieces on the market, so if you like the sound of the AGP, you may not, at least at first, like the difference. I left my AGP behind years ago, but it took a little attitude adjustment to feel comfortable with the result.
I think the M13 Lyre, M15, the d'Addario X0 or X5, as well as mouthpieces in the close-tipped range by people like Walter Grabner, Clark Fobes, Chris Hill and Bob Bernardo (to name the ones I've been playing in my post-Gigliotti years) will give you what you're looking for.
If you don't want to do a lot of trial testing and returning, you might be safest ordering a M13 Lyre and a d'Addario X0 and playing for awhile on the one you prefer. They're not so far from the close-tipped French style mouthpiece you're used to, and they sound and respond well with reeds in the 3.5 (medium hard) range.
Karl
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Author: Summer22
Date: 2018-05-23 18:37
Thank you for all the great suggestions so far! To clarify, I would love to find a mouthpiece similar to the Gigliotti P that will sound good with a slightly softer reed (e.g. V12 3.5 or 3.5+).
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2018-05-24 22:45
Facts - The mouthpieces were made called "P" were a 34 length and a 1.03mm.
He also had a "P long" which was 1.03 with a 40 length. Also known as 40 and 40. This was 40 in length and 40 thousandths tip opening. Which is equal to 1.03 mm's. Pretty cool!
How do I know this? I am very good friends with Babbitt, the makers of his mouthpiece.
So a close match is NOT the Vandoren M series as these are too long and the bores are too wide.
You should go with a custom mouthpiece. Not a Zinner either. D'Addaario bores are way too small and the sound is resistant.
Sorry to confuse you. I want to lead you in the right direction.
Feel free in emailing me for mouthpiece ideas. Possibly the newer Selmers, but you have to make some adjustments to play like or better than Tony's mouthpieces, which in my opinion were a bit buzzy. This is why I'm kinda recommending the Selmer's if you have them adjusted. It's a better mouthpiece and a better match than the Vandoren's. Since I've made my own mouthpieces since 1984 you can pretty much be sure I know what I'm talking about. The latest mouthpieces issued last August have sold over 800 now. Only 3 returns.
Or an older mouthpiece that can be refaced and reworked. I repeat, these were not a favorite mouthpiece for most players. I can reface something for you. The cost may be little to no cost. No I won't try to sell you my mouthpieces. I will set you up with a Tony G. copy. After all this is what you want! So why try to sell you something you don't want. I want to make you a clone and I may already have something in stock.
Cheers!
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2018-05-24 23:25
Bob Bernardo wrote:
> Facts - The mouthpieces were made called "P" were a 34 length
> and a 1.03mm.
>
> He also had a "P long" which was 1.03 with a 40 length. Also
> known as 40 and 40. This was 40 in length and 40 thousandths
> tip opening. Which is equal to 1.03 mm's. Pretty cool!
>
> How do I know this? I am very good friends with Babbitt, the
> makers of his mouthpiece.
>
Bob, I almost never disagree with you, and if Summer22 is interested in looking at a custom mouthpiece, he or she could do no better than to contact you.
Whatever Babbitt ended up doing after Gigliotti died, the original P facing was 38 (19mm) with a nominal 0.98 tip opening. The tips generally ended up being around 1.00 to 1.02. The one I played for years - the only one I've never had re-faced, measures dead-on at 38 with a tip of 0.039" which converts to 0.9906mm - pretty much his target originally. The P34, which was aimed at a market that didn't like the long curve, originally had the same tip opening but had a 34 length (17mm).
It really depends on when Summer22's mouthpiece was made whether it had moved from the original dimensions.
One of the significant differences between the Gigliotti mouthpieces and most others I've ever played is that the throat is visibly narrower in his design. It's parallel-walled, but they're closer together than almost anything else on the market. I assume (but don't know) that the bore starts out narrower than usual. Also, the baffle isn't as deep as it is on the M Series Vandorens or the d'Addarios. I think, only eyeballing it, that your Vintage Cicero, which I'm currently using and like very much, is similar in that respect. To replicate the sound and response of the AGP, a blank with similar internal measurements might be needed.
Karl
I don't know what Tai-Ling, Gigliotti's second wife did after he died - whether she had the facings changed or not. I haven't recently measured one of the newer ones.
Karl
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Author: klarinetkid
Date: 2018-05-25 06:51
My teacher, Edward Marks (former principal clarinet of the Philadelphia Chamber Orchestra) put us all on these- with a V12 4.5-5 they really felt and sounded fantastic. I couldn't imagine playing reeds that hard on my current setup, but I do think of my old P mouthpiece often and feel your pain!
Ramon Wodkowski makes a mouthpiece similar to the P facing- the 1B. You can read more about it here:
https://ramonwodkowski.wordpress.com/2017/07/27/wodkowski-mouthpieces-spotlight-on-the-1-and-1b/
I can't recommend Ramon's work highly enough. I've been playing on his model 1 mouthpiece for a year and find it to be one of the best mouthpieces I've ever played. If you follow him on Facebook you can find out where he is- he splits his time between the UK and USA. He also does mail-order as well- that information is on his website.
Good luck!
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2018-05-26 07:17
Maybe my measurements are off? Babbitt said 40 thousandths. So I think that is 1.03 mm's. He surely said 34 on the facing gauge and 40 for the long. But I could be wrong. Very unlikely. The info came from Jim Green. I've known him for 40 years at Babbitt. [edited - GBK ] He made the mold for Tony.
Cheers!
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2018-05-26 07:22)
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Author: Wes
Date: 2018-06-10 09:00
Hi Mr. Bernardo!
Thanks for all the interesting information that you post.
You were apparently a former employee of Rico when they were producing and selling the Mitchell Lurie mouthpieces. As a student of Mitchell Lurie, I bought a mouthpiece from his West LA home in the middle 1950s and still use it, with a few touchups over the years. I have three friends (one deceased) who were his students and also used his mouthpiece until recent years. They all sounded very good with them. Recently, they sell for low cost.
It would be appreciated if you have any comments on the above.
Good Wishes!!
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