 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-11-24 13:25
Does anyone have experience using some synthetic material for tenons instead of natural cork? What were the results?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: stevesklar
Date: 2007-11-24 14:59
natural cork tends to be more flexible - it gives a bit
synthetic much more solid, less give.
i prefer natural due to that for tenons. though anything else is a prime candidate for synthetic.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-11-24 18:50
Synthetic cork is dire for use as tenon corks, either too spongy or too firm (depending on the type) to be of any use, and it's not easy to shape by conventional methods (abrasives).
Buffet and Schreiber made the mistake of using spongy synthetic cork (Arco) everywhere on their clarinets at some point during the '90s, and now only use it where it won't cause much grief.
'Arco' has some small cork bits in it here and there, and very spongy.
'Syco' is uniform in colour and very spongy.
'Rubco' or 'Gummi-kork' is high density rubberised conglomerated cork (like gasket cork) and is excellent under adjusting screws or anywhere else that needs a firm and hard wearing material.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2007-11-24 22:56)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-11-25 10:26
It's a bit rash (or ignorant) to include ALL synthetic cork under the same heading, considering the large variety that is available.
I agree about 'Arco', 'Syco', and 'Rubco'.
However very few technicians would even have heard of these names, let alone used them. (I imported mine a couple of decades ago from Switzerland.)
I also agree that the agglomerated cork such as 'Gummi-kork', (also known under quite a few other names) is unsuitable for most tenons.... not enough 'give', and too much friction. (But excellent for packing out a groove that is too deep for natural cork to work well in a tenon that is loose enough to tend to wobble)
However some technicians have been using and are impressed by certain models of the black synthetic cork sold by Kraus. This is not like any of the others. Personally I have not used it yet for tenons, mainly because it does not glue as well as natural cork.
http://www.krausmusic.com/sheets/shtsynth.htm#1176
Note: Kraus sells only to technicians.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tara
Date: 2007-11-25 17:45
Several years ago I had some kind of synthetic cork on my middle joint. It sort of fell apart and at the time my repairman suggested that my cork grease had something to do with it. Sounded strange to me, but I went back to regular cork and have been much happier since. I remember having a great deal of trouble keeping the synthetic "lubed" well (thus the grease). Not sure what type it was, but it wasn't for me.
I read the posts all the time, but don't tend to comment very often. THANKS to Mark and those who keep this board going!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-11-25 21:25
The problems synthetic cork (Arco) caused on Buffets was the tenon 'corks' compressed too much (on all clarinets where it was used) or came unstuck (on the B12), and when it was used on the keys it also compressed too much or became sticky causing open standing keys to momentarily stick to the body when it got contaminated with grease or dirt.
It was completely unsuitable for use on the RH F/C overlever (which is actuated by the LH F/C lever) and the LH 1 ring overlever (which connects to the thumb ring) as the underlevers chewed through it and into the glue stuicking it in place causing the thumb ring to remain down (giving throat F# instead of G), and the LH F/C lever felt too spongy and unreliable.
The only places where it was applied thinly and places where it was more acceptable in it's application were on some closed keys such as the speaker key, throat G# stopper, C#/G# key, the side Eb/Bb key, cross Eb/Bb and B/F# 'sliver' keys - though applied thinly (less than 1mm) it could become noisy.
When it was used in thicknesses of more than 1mm it was very soft - the Ab/Eb key had a thick piece under it which the stopper munched through, the trill keys had thick stoppers under them so if pressed too firmly they opened too much.
But it's largely a thing of the past and the use of Arco has declined, though it's being used on bassoons for padding the wing joint high A, C and D keys which have metal vent bushes which leather pads would stick to (or the bushes would cut through) and the spring tension would cause natural cork pads to disintegrate against the bushes. So it's ease of compression is to the advantage of bassoon makers and players in this application.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-11-25 21:47
A fine discussion, friends, a while back I was "hard up" for thin cork sheet for some student cl recorkings, so I checked Hobby Lobby and bot a roll of ?agglomerated, sticky? cork [for a song!]. Its adhesive was N G for cl use, so I removed it via HC solvent [fire-starter, clean C12-16 hydrocarbons]. Glueing it [Micro] on tenons, it was of the right thickness to require little sanding, and in most cases has held up well, when greased . What "category" might this fall into? , comments appreciated. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-11-26 00:04
There are many grades of agglomerated cork.
So without seeing it, further comment is hardly warranted.
However, as I indicated, the GOOD stuff does not fulfil the requirements for tenons particularly well.
It needs too much force to compress it. It cannot compress far, so is not good at accommodating discrepancies in fit. If you always use the same mouthpiece, and the fit of the cork is really good, then these two don't matter.
However that leaves the high surface friction. This really is rather a nuisance. More force is needed to assemble/disassemble, and more cork grease is needed, more often.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-11-26 01:32
Although it's not tennons, I have been reciently using a very dense synthetic fome I found at a hardware store for key stops and connections. Not a 'cork' of any flavor, but it works better than other things I have tried and is quiet. Clicking keys bother me a lot so this seems a good alternative. I will give it a try it on a mouthpiece.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-11-26 10:42
No idea. It was in the 'rubber/foam/silencing' section that had a number of silicons and gooey gel sheets, too. The sticker says 'EVA sponge'.
Post Edited (2007-11-26 11:02)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-11-26 13:28
Hi SkyG - EVA is an ethylene-vinyl acetate copolymer, a "sort of" an "acrylic" plastic, capable of being foamed [open/closed ??] like some of the polyolefins [PE ,PP and copolymers of E and P etc. Others, HELP ! E Pluribus Unum [one of/from many !. TKS for comments, Gordon, my "quite-good" cork sheet-roll is made up of very finely-divided cork particles, and seems to have adequate compressability to retain tight fit. Its wrapper is long gone, but will refind it in H L, and post its name. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-11-27 13:09
EVA sponge:
This sort of thing, used for making soft, 3-D construction toys, letters of the alphabet for kids, etc:
http://lianzhifeng.com/images/upfile/2006272234883069.jpg
http://www.lakewoodconferences.com/direct/dbimage/50308080/Women_s_EVA__Slipper.jpg
And used in mid-soles for shoes.
My guess is that Kraus's synthetic cork could be a version of this. Pretty sensitive to some solvents.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-11-28 20:02
Gordon, since you responded to my "agglomerated" cork post-mention, I went to our H L and found/bot [$6] one small roll of "finely divided" cork "self adhesive" entitled Hobby Lobby Rolls Rouleaux de Liege de Bricoleur, imported [from Portugal] by The Board Dudes, Inc. Irvine, CA 92606. Phone 949-419-0343, www.boarddudes.com. Have just recorked a Bb's tenon, OK so far. They also have a BIG roll, a lifetime supply for us?, forgot price, but low. Regards, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-11-28 22:06
Don- I have tried some self adhesive all purpose cork tape that sounds similar to what you are talking about. I worked ok for a week and then the glue started to loosen and peel away.
-
I tried the EVA Sponge on a mouthpiece and it seems to bond well. It did not dissolve with super glue or contact cement. Now I need to wait and see how well it holds up over time.
Post Edited (2007-11-28 22:07)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-11-29 03:22
When used on tenons, the synthetic cork would peel off leaving the glue in the tenon slot.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-11-30 09:39
Don, you mean the sheet in rolls at the bottom of:
http://www.boarddudes.com/cork_tile.htm
Thanks.
May be OK, but I have learnt to have a deep distrust of most self-adhesives.
Also, I will keep to the quality of sheet cork that I know and trust. There are quite enough sources already, in a large range of thicknesses. Contact gluing is not a problem.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-11-30 13:21
Yes, Sky and Gordon, I also found [quickly] that the self-adhesive was worthless/troublesome, and remove it by immersion in HC solvent [charcoal fire-starter], complete drying and using Micro Cork and Pad cement for good adhesion and life. Have replaced a number of student torn-up corks with good success. I don't argue it to be better than good sheet cork, well applied, but is easier for my quick repair jobs. Fine discussion, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-07-09 00:04
I Wrote: I tried the EVA Sponge on a mouthpiece and it seems to bond well. It did not dissolve with super glue or contact cement. Now I need to wait and see how well it holds up over time.
--------
This is an update on the findings. I put the sponge foam on a junker mouthpiece to see how it would hold up. The mouthpiece has been left out on the shelf for the past 8 months.
The foam itself has not had any change that I can see. Sometimes things like this can dry out from UV, etc. The contact cement has kept a strong bond and I really can't find any separation.
As for performance, it has a good feel putting the mouthpiece on and 'stays put' very well. Also, it needs nearly no grease.
In all respects, I find it to be much better for tenons than natural cork, I think I will take the plunge and put it on my clarinet now for actual daily use.
Post Edited (2008-07-09 00:07)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: shmuelyosef
Date: 2017-06-27 00:47
I have been testing the Valentino "cork" on my own clarinets for a couple years now and am quite satisfied with the results; I am now using this on other people's clarinets if they agree.
Several things that I have learned:
- 1. As mentioned, the "peel and stick" doesn't really hold up. I, too, started removing the adhesive and using proper contact cement. I have since discovered that just applying contact cement to the substrate and applying the Valentino directly works just as well. I have a middle tenon on my main clarinet that is now over a year with no visible signs of moving, chipping or wear.
- 2. One single scant application of grease is sufficient for the lifetime apparently. In general, I've found that if the cork (real cork in this case) is too tight, it needs grease all the time...for some reason, many repairers fit cork that makes joints very tight; the cork compresses and gets hard right away, requiring constant re-greasing, which deteriorates the cork (job security for repairers). I have found that the compliance of the Valentino cork let's me choose the net thickness I want to apply and use it as is. It comes in 1/64" increments.
- 3. If you have a clarinet with a deep tenon groove or badly fitted sockets, the Valentino is unsuitable. Somewhere between 3/64" and 1/16" the Valentino starts grabbing the socket and failing. It is best for really tight sockets (1/64" or 1/32"). For the thick ones I will continue to use actual cork.
- 4. I started out just trimming the end of the cork to make a butt joint (i.e. no sanded bevel) but this was very exacting, although the result was fine. Recently, I have been trying to just overlap it slightly, using my fingernail to press into the butt end and then a sharp razor to slice off the lapped piece flush. Seems to work splendidly, but I don't have more than 6 months experience on this with any clarinets (mine or others).
It does make assembling a clarinet much less stressful than with tight corks (as many clarinets seem to have). I bought a clarinet a while back that was overhauled by one of the very well-known names in the business (bought it direct from this individual) and I was afraid of damaging keywork all the time...
I also use the MusicMedic synthetic cork extensively in regulation points in both clarinets and saxophones, although I prefer natural cork (or felt) for places where it is a damping material (like under the larger key feet). The regulation can be set exact and stays perfect virtually forever with the MM cork. I have 10 years of history with my personal horns as well as customers'.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
