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Author: ClarinettyBetty
Date: 2016-02-16 20:00
Hello all,
I have recently (one week ago) starting to practice with double lip. I LOVE my sound and the ease of leaps, etc that I have when playing double lip. The lip pain is minimal right now, as I practice with Ezo and have pretty good chops.
However, I've noticed that after about 20 minutes of playing, I experience a soreness in my jaw. It stays there for about half an hour after I play, then goes away.
My question is: Is this normal? Will the muscles strengthen and hurt less and less--or am I doing something incorrectly and causing potentially long-term problems? I have had lessons with an acclaimed double-lip playing orchestra player and he says my embouchure is perfect.
So what's with the jaw pain?
Thank you!
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-02-16 20:49
My guess (and only because I do something similar when trying to play on the softest reeds that I can) is that you unconsciously jut your lower jaw forward to align you lower teeth with your uppers.
I think you might be able to achieve what you want without the jutting, if that is what is happening.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2016-02-16 21:30
On Tom ridenours YouTube page, there's a series of videos on playing double lip. I watched them again last night.
Paul's guess above could very well be it, without seeing what's happening. The symptoms you have certainly sound like symptoms of jutting your jaw out in double lip.
Check out Tom ridenours double lip videos. Ricardo morales also has a video about double lip, but I think it's more on his views of double lip as being the preferred method of playing instead of HOW to do it. But worth checking out as well.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2016-02-16 21:45
The quick answer is that the jaw pain you're describing isn't an automatic result of switching to double lip.
Paul is right that you may be jutting your jaw forward. Try concentrating on your jaw position and see if you're positioning it differently from the way you did with single lip.
The basic structures involved in an embouchure don't really change between single and double lip, or they don't (I don't think) need to. Try consciously starting with a comfortable single lip embouchure and then, without moving anything else, bring your upper lip in and over your teeth. Let the relative positions of your upper and lower teeth/jaw determine the mouthpiece angle. Jutting your jaw forward, if you are, will almost certainly push the mouthpiece and instrument outward. You'll probably be more comfortable at first with the same instrument elevation you've always used with single lip.
You may also be clenching your jaw to compensate for any feeling of instability of the instrument, especially as you play through the throat register when the whole weight of the clarinet tends to be balanced between your right thumb and your upper jaw. Don't be too heroic about not supporting the clarinet on your knee (obviously, sitting) or with a strap while you build your upper lip control. If you're unconsciously gripping harder with your jaw to keep the clarinet still as you move over the break, the tension could explain pain.
BTW, don't buy into any dogma you may have read about how much upper lip to take in. When I was starting to play double lip I heard everything from taking a "thin membrane of lip" to taking an amount equal to the amount of lower lip you take in. Your lip and jaw structure should determine what's comfortable. There are some players who can't comfortably cover their upper teeth at all. It sounds like you can, but you have to experiment to find the most comfortable, tension-free way of doing it.
Karl
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2016-02-16 21:51
It could also be possible that you're using muscles you haven't used much before to support the MP so you don't cut through your lip. If that's the case, it may just take time for them to strengthen.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2016-02-16 22:21
What part of the jaw? There's a condition called TMJ. (temporomandibular joint) It's located near your lower ear lobes. Hopefully that's not where your pain is.
Maybe have a dentist check you out in 2 or 3 weeks. Double lip playing isn't for everyone because of the jaw position, such as the type of bite. Bring your horn with you to the dentist. Pain sucks. One of the reasons Steve Barta left the Baltimore Sym was because his lip would never heal; according to my friend Chris Hill. He suffered for many years. I know Steve, but we never talked about this. I didn't know he suffered.
As far as setups the mouthpiece is so dang critical with single and double lip playing. The tip opening and the facing need to fit correctly. Needless to say everyone is different.
I live with a mirror in front of me when I practice. A large mirror, not just to see my mouth and my ugly face, but also to see where my finger placements are. A mirror is often your best friend when making a major change such as playing with a double lip. Take note of where your jaw is going. Sometimes you may need to add an extra tooth pad to your mouthpiece. Pretty much every double lip player I know uses tooth padding, and often a bit over sized. I don't, Gennusa didn't, Tom Ridenhour does.
Edited after 1 AM - I need to explain my thoughts a bit. I did go overboard here, over reacted probably? But maybe not...
This is probably not a TMJ case, but it worries me when a person on this site reports to the clarinet board of having jaw pain when playing. Something doesn't seem right. If the word "Muscle," is used I wouldn't worry.I offer very similar as the GREAT Eddie Palanker. Jaw pain is most likely bone! I've been through a pile of surgeries, 9 I think, maybe more, several broken bones from sports, that's separate from the surgeries, I grew up playing hockey, so perhaps I'm a bit too over concerned with injuries?
Just be careful if the jaw pain doesn't subside in a few days. I recently had to take off serious playing for about 2 years for 2 elbow surgeries. The surgeries were easy, the 2 hour rehab sessions sucked, 7 days a week for many, many, months, actually more like years.
One thing that also bothers me here is a few comments about holding the clarinet on the knee or knees, between the knees with double lip playing. I have to ask why? This can, well actually it will, effect the intonation if the bell is resting on the knee(s). Some players have drilled a hole(s) in the bells of the horns on the sides, to help with this tuning problem. Actually a pretty smart move. Maybe a 1/4 inch hole or 2. If your right thumb can't handle the weight use a strap and change the thumb rest? Please notice the "?" Recently I've noticed Sabine Meyer using a strap more and more. I'm very strong, but due to the right elbow surgeries and being asked to play the dang 30 to 35 minute Mozart Concerto I'm probably going to go to a strap. The right forearm is still a bit weak after practicing 3 or 4 hours a day and I have trouble sleeping. It's nerve damage related, not muscle related.
So lets not dismiss pain. Pain is real and if it doesn't go away in 2 or 3 weeks we need to address it. Thanks for listening. I wish everyone great health pain free - playing on any instrument. Bob
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2016-02-17 13:13)
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Author: Wes
Date: 2016-02-16 23:15
Once I attended a master class given by Richard Stoltzman. During the question period, I asked him if he would play for us the same phrase with his double lip embouchure and also with a single lip embouchure. He did this and sounded good on both. However, I thought he definitely sounded better with the single lip embouchure. To each his/her own!
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2016-02-16 23:24
Wow Betty.
Some of these answers above strike me a bit like the kinds that come from those who (if I may be metaphorical) when they hear "hoofs," think "zebras" not "horses"---or to restate, as they say in medicine, go with the obvious first.
You just started with double embouchure. Your using your mouth muscles in subtly different ways than you did under single embouchure. While it's possible that it's a sign of "ingrown toenail pain," my money's with....... (drum roll)
muscle fatigue.
It's good and smart that you're using Ezo to relieve pain and discomfort while you practice the embouchure, but I suspect you've (sarcasm gasp) ever ever so slightly torn some of the muscle in your mouth and its healing.
...its what bodybuilders do every time they work out...give themselves a controlled herniation, following by muscle repair....
Elevate, ice, motrin (oh wait, can't elevate and ice)....motrin if pain becomes bad.
I can't believe some of these answers. This isn't rapid onset after years of double embouchure play. This is, "I just tried this new sport, and boy am I sore."
Rest, control your acclimation to double embouchure, "take 2 asprin, and call me in the morning"...which you won't have to do because you'll probably be fine.
Of course if the pain persists, worsens, etc., seek medical help.
Kudos to Ed for being the voice of reason.
Post Edited (2016-02-16 23:25)
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Author: SarahC
Date: 2016-02-17 00:22
Muscle fatigue is very different to pain in the jaw.
Pain is a sign that something is happening that shouldn't. Fatigue is a different issue.
Only u can know for sure what it is.
If it is just that fatigue of muscle feeling, then u can do steength training so to speak, like people do at the gym,
If it is your body crying from a misalignment issue, then that needs to be addressed as it will get worse.
women are more apt to get these sort of issues than men. (I can tell a story of a male piano teacher at the most prestigious music uni in my state, that ruined every single female pianist for the rest of their lives!!!! The male students needed medical treatment, but we're able to recover with physio, and of course changing their technique.
As mentioned about jutting out the jaw is one of the most common causes of jaw pain, try pulling your jaw in, and playing that way (even over compensating).
You can use a double lip without moving the jaw position. If your normal posture hasn't caused pain, try starting with your normal position and pulling the top lip in, without moving your jaw.
There are flute players who get injuries from using the jaw moving technique to switch between high and low notes (this was very popular technique in French romantic school I believe)
Remember pain is always a message from your body that something isn't right.. it is only u who can truly know and put your body back into alignment.
(I have seen lots of damage done by people ignoring pain, including teachers who told me to push thru pain, causing long lasting damage!)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2016-02-17 00:29
WhitePlainsDave wrote:
> You just started with double embouchure. Your using your mouth
> muscles in subtly different ways than you did under single
> embouchure. While it's possible that it's a sign of "ingrown
> toenail pain," my money's with....... (drum roll)
>
> muscle fatigue.
Dave, I don't remember reading anything about ingrown toenail pain here. OK, so it's muscle fatigue.
Is that the whole answer?
Well, maybe. But then you (or, at least, the OP) may want to consider why the muscles are fatigued. Is the fatigue endemic to covering the upper teeth with the lip? The mechanics of the embouchure shouldn't change in a major way just because you cushion your teeth with the lip. I play double lip. I have never experienced jaw pain after 20 minutes, nor did I when I made the switch. Maybe I was unique. Have other players who read the OP experienced this? So far no one has said so.
Muscle fatigue and accompanying pain come from stressing muscles in new or greater ways they're not used to. Assuming that's the case here, the stress might be coming simply from the change. Or it might be coming from some other change, perhaps a totally unnecessary one or even a destructive one, that snuck into the process. I have to disagree that we're hearing "hoofs" and thinking "zebras." We're hearing "hoofs" and asking "why are there horses galloping down mainstreet?"
> but I suspect you've (sarcasm gasp) ever ever so slightly torn some of
> the muscle in your mouth and its healing.
I haven't actually seen an answer to Bob's question about where the pain is. Apart from having to ask why sarcasm seems appropriate, I don't think if the pain is actually all the way back in the joint area (which is what people usually mean by jaw pain) that any muscle injury as severe as a tear can be explained by the new contact between the teeth and the lip. There may (very likely is) force being applied in a new, perhaps unnecessary, way that is causing pain unnecessarily. If the pain is centered somewhere closer to the front, you may be right. But there's still no reason endemic to a double lip embouchure itself to be stressing anything in the musculature enough to cause tears. Abrasions to the soft tissue inside the lip itself aren't jaw pain, and the OP says he's only experiencing minimal lip pain.
To the OP: sure, you might find the pain diminishing and eventually disappearing just by persisting and strengthening the muscles supporting your embouchure. But, you asked whether or not jaw pain is "normal" and the simple answer is it isn't necessary, whatever normal means. By the way, what does the player you had the lessons with say about it? Did he experience the same pain when he switched (assuming he didn't start double lip in the first place)?
Take Dr. Dave's advice, "Elevate, ice, motrin (oh wait, can't elevate and ice)....motrin if pain becomes bad." It can't hurt you, although I'm not sure how you elevate a jaw with or without Motrin. But do consider what you may be doing differently to stress things that you don't do when your upper lip is in front of your teeth instead of over them.
Karl
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Author: SarahC
Date: 2016-02-17 01:07
Karl - I must confess before I listened to m body, I got jaw pain with flute... Like a lock jaw sort of thing when changing registers (which I had been taught to use my jaw for.. needless to say, once I realised to listen to pain, I was able to develop a relaxed embouchure).
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Author: SarahC
Date: 2016-02-17 01:08
Not saying that to disagree with u. I agree with everything u r saying but I have been there re pain! Just not on clarinet!
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Author: ClarinettyBetty
Date: 2016-02-17 01:28
Thank you all for your suggestions. In response to some queries, yes, I am already holding the clarinet in between my knees for stabilization. As for the sarcasm comment, the reason I posted this is because the pain in my jaw feels much different than pain I've ever felt before.
I went to the practice room during lunch and experimented with my jaw position, playing single lip and slowly switching to double. It appears that I was, ever so slightly, protruding my jaw. I'm talking--millimeters. But it was enough to make a difference! I will continue to monitor the situation; hopefully the slight protrusion was all that was wrong. I appreciate the helpful advice!
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Author: SarahC
Date: 2016-02-17 01:40
Betty! I am so happy u have been able to eleviate the pain! Hopefully that was all it was! And it won't come back! Our bodies are such amazing things!
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2016-02-17 03:39
What's EZO? I found dental cushions called that, but I don't really know what those are either.
BTW, I agree with all the possibilities suggested above. When I started with double lip I only got pain in my upper lip where it was now cushioning the teeth. I'd continue until it hurt too bad and then would switch back to single lip. Eventually the single lip usage became unnecessary, though the lip pain remained considerable for a long time, like a year, until the lip calloused over. Still hurts some when I get diligent about not supporting the bell, or play standing. Anyway, that's a thought - play until it hurts, then switch back to single lip. But I don't recommend that for a joint problem.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2016-02-17 03:58
EZO pads are denture pads. They're gauze pads impregnated with beeswax. You cut a piece off one of the pads big enough to fold over your front teeth, let it soften in your mouth for a minute or so (the beeswax has a very low melting point and softens at oral temperature), then fo,d it over the front teeth. A package will last for years because you only use a small chunk at a time and the pieces can be reused.
Last time I bought any, they were hard to find locally. I had to Google them and mail order a couple of boxes.
Karl
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2016-02-17 07:16
Karl..your points are well taken.
I think the TMJ suggestion through me for a loop. Sure it could be TMJ, although highly unlikely (like said ingrown toenail causation), and surely the problem might be multifactorial, but muscle pain from initially applying muscles in every so slightly different ways playing double lip, i.e. sore muscles, i.e micro tears in muscles that rest heals naturally, seemed the best thing to rule out first.
That the subtle change in jaw position the OP reports, that doesn't compromise embouchure, may prove enough to ease pain--all the better--and doesn't after the fact change the fact that the best advice is to rule out the most obvious thing first--and that's what I saw as most obvious.
As I'm sure you appreciate, switching (or perhaps I should say changing) to double lip is not a "switch," so much as a process involving acclimation.
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Author: SarahC
Date: 2016-02-17 16:06
you can also use florist tape to cover the teeth, slightly cheaper alternative.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-02-17 16:14
And since we've gone back to the teeth coverage, my favorite is to take the leather patch from a pair of jeans (various thicknesses - I choose my jeans based on what thickness of patch works for me!), cut out an appropriate size to go over my lower teeth and have a covering that will last almost a year before I even need to cut another from the initial jean purchase.
Oddly, even though I now use a VERY light embouchure I still need a lower teeth covering (I think my lower teeth must be exceedingly sharp).
....................Paul Aviles
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