 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2015-07-06 04:40
Following a comment on another thread, I gave some though to the playability of clarinets with leaky pads. I've had a number of instruments in for repair where the pads were so leaky that it is hard to see how the instrument was useable, and yet the owner had been playing them right up to the time when they were handed to me. In some cases the requested repair wasn't even associated with the pads, just a broken spring or a tenon cork or such.
I've played such instruments, and found them to be, in most cases, perfectly playable. I can always improve the playability of these instruments by pad replacement, but sometimes when I've pointed out the sad state of the pads to the owner I've been told to leave it alone, it works just fine. It leads me to wonder just how critical it is to achieve a completely leakproof condition. Obviously some leaks are more critical than others, but what I've seen puzzles me somewhat.
Tony F.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-07-06 05:18
I'm with you. Given the practicalities of life, clarinets are not going to always be in optimum condition any more than cars, houses, or computers. Still we use them, mostly without too much loss compared to if they were "perfect". Most of us get to choose only a thing or 2 to obsess over, if that.
So we suffer through never knowing about the $2 fix that would smooth out our engine, or how a piece of duct tape could quiet the annoying buzz in the furnace, or how a leveled pad would allow us to play more notes with less effort. But we get by, at least until we can deal with it.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-07-06 05:52
A leaky instrument may be playable, but the question may be, with what effort? Then the next question is, with the effort I'm putting into playing this instrument, am I getting a satisfactory result?
I can keep a car with misaligned front tires on the road, although I may have to keep my hands more firmly on the steering wheel than I might if the front end were in better condition. If the brakes are worn, I can still stop the car perfectly well by putting my foot down on the brake pedal a little harder than I needed to when the car was new. So, the car is drivable and the effort I need to put into driving isn't onerous. The car gets me where I'm going quite successfully.
A leaky clarinet isn't a safety hazard, so having it working at top efficiency isn't as big a deal as having the steering and brakes working well on a car. It comes down to how much effort the player is willing to put into overcoming mechanical inefficiency.
Karl
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2015-07-06 14:17
Fast staccato over the register break will never work with a leaky clarinet. Neither will fast arpeggios over tones where the resistance changes too much. The clarinet will squeak.
Playing simple melodies with a leaking instrument might be ok.
I have bought instruments 2nd hand that must have been a nightmare to play.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2015-07-06 17:06
Some of the leaky instruments that I wrote of belonged to professional musicians, who did not want the leaky pads fixed. Some years ago I was offered first refusal on a Leblanc LL that I had long cherished. It belonged to a musician friend who was retiring, and I had always admired the wonderful sounds he produced from it. When I finally got to play it I found that for me it was pretty well unplayable. The keywork was sloppy, the crows foot was all over the place and the moth-eaten pads leaked. Nevertheless that was the way he played until the day he retired. Go figure.
Tony F.
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2015-07-06 18:34
Tony, I refuse to believe he was not restricted. If leaky pads don't matter why have them seal at all?
Playing the Mendelsohn scherzo should pull down the trousers on any clarinetist with a leaky instrument.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-07-06 18:56
Perhaps very early music training should address this issue. But then your 7 yr old student might ask why her parents are asking her to learn on an out of tune beat up spinet. Which would be a fair question.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-07-06 19:51
From what I understand, Oehler system players favour the resistance from porous leather pads and according to one reliable source, makers use these leather pads for this very reason.
I think it may have been Greg Smith that said on here he had his Oehler system clarinet cork padded and made as airtight as his Boehm systems. But when it came to selling it, German potential buyers weren't in favour of it for that reason as they prefer squishy porous leather pads.
As I may have mentioned a while back, I repadded a Peter Eaton with cork and leather pads as it was lifeless and unresponsive with the stock neoprene covered cork pads as they leaked like a sieve, but cork padding it as well as addressing the small imperfections in the toneholes (which is part and parcel of cork padding any instrument) made it sing and upper and altissimo register staccatos were so much easier than how it was previously.
If you have a leaky clarinet with porous pads and the owner is there with it, see if you can get it airtight by wrapping cling film over the pads to create a better seal against their toneholes and get them to play it to see if they can feel the difference. I forgot to try this with the owner present as he was wondering how his clarinet would perform once all the leaks were dealt with.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-07-07 03:29
Thanks for adding that Chris. We dealt with that question some time ago and the idea of the "smoothing out of resistance" was brought up then. Of course I am a "air tight guy." The instrument DOES become as resonant as possible this way.
One minor contrary note. I have had several leather padded instruments that sealed just as well as cork (two of them being Wurliters!!!). The new Uebels are also "leak proof" and fully leather padded horns.
But back to the old thread. My favorite story in there was one gentleman that wanted perfectly sealing pads but insisted on the feel of a leaky clarinet. The final result was achieved when the tech (who posted the story) put a small drill hole through the clarinet under a key (it then "leaked" enough to feel right for the end user).
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2015-07-07 09:24
>> One minor contrary note. I have had several leather padded instruments that sealed just as well as cork <<
Different models of leather pads (and also some other pads) vary in how porous they are. Many leather pads are treated. I check many different pads with a magnehelic machine. They varied and some pads didn't seal no matter how hard I pressed, leaking through the leather itself and then from the sides. Some leather pads sealed as well as any pad.
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Author: EaubeauHorn
Date: 2015-07-07 19:19
If an instrument passes the "suction test" does that mean it is playing as well as it's going to?
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-07-07 19:35
EaubeauHorn wrote:
> If an instrument passes the "suction test" does that mean it is
> playing as well as it's going to?
No. It only means that resistance caused by leaky pads will be minimal.
There are other things than can interfere with optimal playing: anything that involves an open hole, like obstructions, a hole that's too small or dirt-clogged or a pad that doesn't open enough; a key that binds; a key that's sprung too firmly and is harder than it should be to open; lost motion (when keys move because of play in the action but the movement doesn't accomplish anything useful)...
Simply getting all the pads to seal and making sure there are no surface nicks in the pad seats to let air out doesn't guarantee ease of playing. A clarinet is a machine with a fair number of moving parts.
Karl
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-07-07 20:00
The suction test is easy, and (if it fails) can tell you that a clarinet has sprung a leak, so to speak, unless it's supposed to leak- like a few rare ones described above. I've found leaks on my own clarinets this way, and verified I'd fixed them after my own somewhat clumsy repairs. And it's the first thing I do when I suspect a problem, or when I realize I haven't tried it for a few months. It's just as important to regularly verify your clarinet is sealing, as it is to check the oil level in your car- though most owners of both never check either.
We discussed this subject at length a few months ago, particularly with respect to how tight a seal to expect... you may want to search for that thread... find "Coke bottle", lol. Consensus is that top joint should hold suction very well, bottom joint perhaps not so much. I've learned what my own horns are supposed to feel like, so I know when something has gone south.
But some here don't trust the suction test much. Pressure outward is more like playing than pressure inward. Even more thorough is the old cigarette paper on a stick schtick. Don't rely on suction 100%.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: EaubeauHorn
Date: 2015-07-07 23:23
Given that I'm learning on a 1950s plastic Bundy, I suspect that once I convince myself that I'm going to stay with it, I'll spring for a top level instrument. I've found that I can tell the difference between medium level and top level instruments to the point where it's worth it to get top level, even at lower stages of my progress.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2015-07-08 10:45
In addition to what Karl posted, another possible issue with the vacuum test is that a pad could seal with normal playing force, but some pads might not seal as "fast" as they can. This can cause problems in legato and.or how pressing the key feels, eventhough once fingering the note it does seal.
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