 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: MarkB2014
Date: 2014-12-31 17:08
Hi all,
This is my first post here so I hope I can be of help to others and vice versa.
I have been playing for about 10 weeks, and have difficulty with two particular fingerings :
1. In the lower register, going from C down to to B results in what I can only describe as a mushy attack on the B note. It sounds like the note doesn't crisply start. This mushiness does not occur when I go from C to Bb to A. Any thoughts? The Bb key was bent at an odd angle when I bought the clarinet but I have since had it straightened professionally so I think the key is fine.
2. I have difficulty in the lower register going down from low A to low G# - the difficulty I have is that I am not pressing both the G# pinky key and the RH ring finger down simultaneously. Is this common and are the any ways to overcome specific difficulties that require these two fingers to work together better?
Thanks, Mark.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2014-12-31 18:16
Your first problem may be that the bridge mechanism is maladjusted and the top pad on the lower joint isn't seating properly. Put your fingers on the rings on the lower joint and check if that pad seals properly. If the lower rings are being held slightly raised from the corrrect position by the pad already mentioned this may be a result of the same maladjustment and could cause your second problem. It could also be a crows foot adjustment.
Tony F.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-12-31 18:45
I like the suggestion that it is a problem with the ring height for your second finger. Keep in mind though that when you adjust this height (making it lower for big fingers and higher for small/narrow fingers) it WILL affect the bridge mechanism adjustment and you'll have to tweak that as well.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-12-31 19:43
You'd be best off having a competent tech look at the adjustment of the whole key stack on the bottom section. If the Bb ring was mangled and straightened, it may well be a problem of misalignment, but it's hard for me to imagine why B would be mushy but not Bb or A, since the same rings and pad are involved. If the top pad isn't closing for B, it isn't likely to be closing for Bb, either. If the ring is so high that the 2nd finger isn't completely covering the hole for B, then it probably isn't covering well for A, either or for G and below, which obviously depend on all the holes' being completely closed.
Your problem with G# may, as Tony suggests, stem from the same misalignment. It *may* be that the bridge key is set too low to allow any of those rings to come down all the way, or it *may* be that the RH B ring is set too high or the Bb ring was reset too low (and is preventing everything else from closing).
All of these are interrelated and someone who knows what he's doing should re-regulate the whole stack. If the "professional" who straightened the Bb ring didn't know enough to check to see if everything else was right once he reset ring, he may not be the one to take it back to, but maybe he was in a hurry.
Karl
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Author: MarkB2014
Date: 2014-12-31 20:45
Hi all, many thanks for the replies. I will check out these suggestions and then perhaps have the entire lower key section and bridge re-aligned. I might also take it to a local teacher and ask her to play the same sequence and see if she encounters the same issue. I am a beginner so it could be me, but I don't think it is me to be honest.
Just on the second part of my query, to clarify (apologies, I wasn't terribly clear) - it's not the mechanism of the clarinet that is causing me the issue in going from A down to G# - it's that my RH ring finger and pinky don't seem to be able to descend in tandem and both close the last hole and push the spatula to its lowest point in exact time - it seems to take longer for the spatula key to fully depress and I'm wondering if most people adjust for this and bring their pinky finger down a little ahead of their ring finger? It's the one note that is causing me a wild bit of frustration. Note that I have very short pinky fingers too. Is it simply a matter of 'keep doing it over and over slowly until you get it'?
Thanks, Mark
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-12-31 21:07
MarkB2014 wrote:
> Is it simply a matter of 'keep
> doing it over and over slowly until you get it'?
>
By itself, this is rarely a solution in itself. What's missing is that you have to figure out why the problem exists. Then you have to change something. Repeating the same action over and over and expecting a different result is non-productive.
Where is your pinky when you start your motion to play G#? Does it start higher than the ring finger? Does it start straighter than the ring finger?
Keeping your pinky ahead of lower than) your ring finger may work, but it's the kind of thing you'll have trouble actually doing in practical situations. In any case, the Ab/G# spatula is already higher than the ring or the tone hole for your ring finger, so if the two fingers are together, the pinky will make contact first. The Ab/G# pad opens when you press the key, so it doesn't really have to be fully depressed to produce a G# or Ab. Are you saying that G sounds first and then G# after it? Or do you feel continued movement after G# sounds?
In general, hand position and finger shape have a lot to do with many coordination issues. In particular, fingers that are extended straight out (fully or even hyper extended) take longer to bring down - they have to first unlock.
So, BTW, can the key positions themselves affect this. See if the teacher you're planning to ask has the same problem or not.
Karl
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Author: MarkB2014
Date: 2014-12-31 23:04
Karl, I think you are on to something there! Because I have such short pinky fingers, the default position of my RH pinky is straight and locked - as I have been primarily practicing scales which hit the E and F spatula keys, my finger has got into the habit of staying straight and locked, because when I bend it, it just catches the edge of the E and F spatulas and doesn't feel secure. So that means when I go to hit the G sharp spatula key, I have to bend it, move it to the left and move it down to depress the key, all of which takes a lot longer than just dropping my ring finger down.
As there are no alternates fingerings for low G sharp (?), either I have to adapt, or find something to extend the spatula key for F (which is the longest reach), which would then stop me from locking my pinky straight. Of course my hand position could be the issue, and the tension in my hand, so I have ordered a strap, just arrived, and will try to see if this works. Also, the thumb rest feels too low for me, so I might benefit from one of those adjustable ones.
Thanks, Mark.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2015-01-01 00:20
I agree with the advice above, and especially Karl's advice -- which you'll notice always begins with a question? It isn't enough to know that something is amiss, you'll almost always have to figure out why and how it's wrong.
To solve the A-to-G# finger miss-coordination issue, which is incredibly common among early players, I would recommend this:
Start on the G# with your fingers as you'd like to have them
Go up to A
Back down to G# attempting to return them as they started.
Starting on the note/fingering that has more fingers depressed and returning to it increases (in my experience) the fingers ability to learn what you'd like them to achieve.
It's additionally possible that your ring finger and pinky are arriving at the exact correct time, and that your ring finger (lacking independence) is does not arrive and cover the hole -- but slides into place.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-01-01 01:04
Tobin wrote:
> ability to learn what you'd like them to achieve.
>
> It's additionally possible that your ring finger and pinky are
> arriving at the exact correct time, and that your ring finger
> (lacking independence) is does not arrive and cover the hole --
> but slides into place.
>
This is something I've often noticed with students. When they throw their fingers out straight as a default position, they tend not to come straight down over the hole but instead with their fingers still at an upward angle, contacting the back of the hole first. I've watched bagpipe players finger this way, apparently as a matter of convention, and they seem to be successful at covering the holes, but the holes on a bagpipe chanter are a good deal smaller than the ones on a clarinet, especially on the bottom section.
This is slightly different, though, because the finger that Mark says is starting straight (and locked) and is late to the G# party is his pinky, which doesn't need to cover anything.
For Mark, it is very possible to have an extension made of almost any key you like. But be careful because adding to one can interfere with your getting to another.
Karl
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Author: MarkB2014
Date: 2015-01-01 01:51
Hi again all,
So I checked out the advice from Tony F. It seems that on the RH, depressing the first key does seal the pad on the upper joint properly, but then depressing the nest key, the B key, it requires some force to make the upper pad seal, and then depressing the third key on its own causes the top pad not to seal at all (doesn't even come close!). So the issue get progressively worse as you go down the keys. If depressing any of these keys on their own is supposed to seal the pad on the upper joint, then definitely a problem with the mechanism and /or key height. So thanks Tony F, you were spot on. Going back to my tech on Saturday to get it sorted.
There has also been great advice regarding my g sharp pinky issue. I put a new neck strap on tonight and the easing of hand tension helps a bit to allow me to move my pinky a bit better. The issue is actually two fold, having tested tonight - the pinky doesn't quite come down in time, plus moving the pinky causes the ring finger to misalign with the bottom hole and I then have to slide it into the right place, causing a big delay in trying to get the note out.
So thanks again to all. But the way, if I wanted to extend the F spatula a tiny bit, say 4-5mm, how would I achieve that?
Thanks, Mark.
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Author: gsurosey
Date: 2015-01-01 05:09
I have a similar problem with the rings on the RH of my A clarinet (the middle finger B is the most difficult to play cleanly if I'm not attentive to the maladjustment of my rings). If I was to take the ring key off and hold it up, I can see that the rings are bent slightly in the center so that the middle ring is lower than the other two (basically, it's slightly concave instead of flat). It's slight enough where I can still play it, but I have to make sure I press down a little harder than I want to. As soon as time and funds allow, I'll get it adjusted (as well as having the same rings on my Bb clarinet raised - whoever had these clarinets before me must've had larger fingers than me, which isn't much of a surprise).
----------
Rachel
Clarinet Stash:
Bb/A: Buffet R13
Eb: Bundy
Bass: Royal Global Max
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Author: MarkB2014
Date: 2015-01-01 15:19
All, Happy New Year and thanks for your posts. So just to confirm, I checked again this morning and the issue is absolutely clear now regarding the softness in the attack of the B key on the lower joint (apologies, I'd said Bb inadvertently before). The tips/pads of my fingers are very small, which means that they do 'go through' the centre of the lower rings quite a bit, meaning that they fail to depress the ring to its full extent. This in turn means the corresponding pads on both the lower joint and the pad on the upper joint (operated by the bridge key) don't actually seal.
And this is where it gets interesting. Because I have been compensating by placing my finger tips further across the ring (to the far edge of the ring) to make sure the finger tip depresses the rings to their full extent, this has led to my other problem with my not making contact with the correct position when depressing the last ring when trying to play G#.
When I get the height of the middle and last rings raised, it will sort most of my issues. Then it will just be a matter of practicing starting from G# and going to A and back to G# (as suggested - thanks)
It goes to show that a clarinet's ring heights are very personal to the size of your fingers/shape of your finger pads. The smaller and 'pointier' the pads, the more they fall through the rings and stop the rings going down to their full extent.
Hopefully this full explanation will help others in the future on this forum. What a great forum! Glad I joined!
Mark.
Post Edited (2015-01-01 23:08)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-01-01 22:25
I would also humbly suggest you should ALWAYS have curvature to ALL your fingers to include the pinkies (to avoid all said problems!).
For the right hand the SUPER EASY fix is to have the thumb rest lowered physically on the horn so that the plate is actually more in line with the bottom edge of the first tone hole (as you look at it from the side) OR even past this point to be closer to the middle between the tone holes for 1 and 2. This does mean more "reaching" to get at the top trill keys, but this is a MUCH easier fix. You may not even have the strain that causes you to use a neck strap with the thumb rest repositioning!
I'm sorry, I need to add a more important issue:
How you support the clarinet with the thumb can affect SOOOOO much about strain and how you approach the keys. I would recommend ensuring that your thumb be at a minimum STRAIGHT out (perpendicular to the ground) at the very least as you support the horn. Elsa Ludwig-Verdehr would insist her students actually had their thumbs pointing somewhat UP (that is: following a line from the base of the thumb toward the tip, your thumb actually points slightly toward the ceiling). This attitude of the thumb helps greatly in distributing the weight of the horn through your wrist and arm rather than just at the thumb joint which happens if you just let the thumb "sag" under the weight (causing GREAT strain at the wrist).
Using Ludwig-Verdehr's thumb position you actually may be able to keep the thumb rest where it is AND get you fingers in the correct CURVED attitude.
............Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2015-01-01 22:37)
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Author: MarkB2014
Date: 2015-01-01 23:28
Hi Paul, strange coincidence - I was testing different thumb positions, angles, etc, and even turned my thumb rest upside down to change the height. I found it best when I reverted the thumb rest back to its standard position, and to help me to angle my thumb upward, I added a rubber thumb rest cushion which I cut at an angle. This allows my thumb to extend at a slight upward angle and helps a bit.
Mark.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-01-02 01:56
GOOD!!! Keep in mind though that it WILL feel like you've lowered your thumb rest with this "up" position.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2015-01-02 03:52
Mark,
Have you considered using something like the Ridenour thumb saddle? I tried one when I was having problems with thumb strain. I'd already tried moving the thumb rest around and although it helped it didn't fix the problem. The thumb saddle was a huge improvement, and has the benefits of being inexpensive and is interchangable between instruments.
Tony F.
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Author: MarkB2014
Date: 2015-01-02 13:14
Hi Tony,
From what I've read, one of the benefits of that thumb saddle is that it extends the 'pinch' distance, ie the distance from thumb to fingers, and this helps to keep the hand more comfortable and the fingers more curved. Would that be right? I have searched for UK suppliers and can't seem to find any. I'll keep looking today...
Thanks, Mark.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2015-01-02 17:35
Hi Mark,
That's exactly what it does, makes the whole business a lot more comfortable. I got mine on EBay, but if you were to Email Tom Ridenour direct I'm sure he could sort one out for you. try this website.
http://www.ridenourclarinetproducts.com/
Tony F.
Post Edited (2015-01-02 17:36)
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Author: MarkB2014
Date: 2015-01-02 18:07
Hi Tony, I ordered one up today from the US. There doesn't seem to be a supplier for these in the UK. It'll take a week or two to get here but I have a feeling the wait will be worthwhile...thanks for the tip. Every little helps. The more comfortable I am the more I will play!
Plus I am seeing my tech again tomorrow and will hopefully get those key heights raised so that those pads on the upper and lower joint seal properly when I press the last two rings.
Mark.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2015-01-02 20:27
Sounds like a plan! Let us know how it works out.
Tony F.
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Author: MarkB2014
Date: 2015-01-03 22:37
Hi all, a quick update...
I brought my clarinet back to the tech. A few adjustments were made as follows:
- The rings on the second and third holes on the lower joint were raised quite a bit.
- The corresponding upper pad on the lower joint was reduced in height a bit.
Both of these have completed sorted the issue of the poor attack on the B note (when descending from C).
So thanks very much for that guidance.
The difficulty I have with going down from A to G# persists (the G comes out first, momentarily, followed by the G#), and as suggested, I will practice going up from G# to A and back down, rather than vice versa, and see how that works out. And of course I have the Ridenour thumb saddle coming in the post. I guess our individual finger structures make some finger movements/combinations more difficult than others...
Nearly there!
Mark.
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Author: MarkB2014
Date: 2015-01-11 01:48
All,
A quick update to finish the thread and help others as promised...
I received the Ridenour Thumb Saddle, and for me it makes a real and significant difference. It does increase the 'pinch' distance between thumb and forefinger, unlike many other thumb rests which tend to alter height and/or thumb angle. It makes the whole hand more relaxed, allowing the fingers to maintain a nice curve. This has in turn made the fingering of the transition from A down to G# much easier. The advice I received in terms of starting from G# and going up to A (and then back down to G#) rather than vice versa has also been helpful and has taught my pinky and ring fingers how to work in unison.
Hopefully if anyone else has these issues this topic/post will help.
I've just bought an alto sax too. Good grief. Here we go again...
:0)
Thanks all,
Mark.
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