 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: MSK
Date: 2012-11-14 18:15
I'm a fairly advance amateur who plays in a community orchestra. In the last few months, I've been having trouble with my 1971 vintage Buffet R13 playing flat. I have to push in all the way, which is not typical for this instrument. I've used this clarinet for over 30 years and am accustomed to pulling out a bit. It was last overhauled maybe 5 years ago. I haven't changed mouthpiece or reeds recently. Suggestions? Thanks.
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Author: Merlin_Williams
Date: 2012-11-14 19:34
Did they change the thermostat setting in your rehearsal hall?
Jupiter Canada Artist/Clinician
Stratford Shakespeare Festival musician
Woodwind Doubling Channel Creator on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/c/WoodwindDoubling
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2012-11-14 19:55
My first question would be to ask what you are suddenly flat *to.* If the only place where you notice it is in the orchestra, get hold of a tuner (if you don't have one) and see if you're suddenly flat or something has recently made the orchestra's pitch rise. Has there been a personnel change somewhere in the woodwind section, especially one of the principals, who could be pulling the section's pitch up?
Dirt in the register tube could make the clarion register go flat (but not the chalumeau where the register key is closed). If you're judging by the pitch of A or Bb (long B4 or C5 on your Bb clarinet), that's a possible explanation. Check the tuning with a tuner in different ranges and/or check the register tube for lint.
You didn't mention if you've changed barrels recently, but that's too obvious so I'll assume you haven't.
You haven't changed reeds, but have the reeds changed? One of the consequences of too soft reeds is flat pitch. Wouldn't matter if you've changed or the cane has just been coming through softer lately.
Just a few possibilities. Thee are others, but they get less likely as they become more unusual.
Karl
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2012-11-14 20:31
Then, define "flat". Is it five cents, is it twenty cents?
(And yes, as Karl said, flatness/sharpness is always relative to one's group)
--
Ben
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2012-11-14 20:38
I can relate to your question because I have an R-13 that's about the same age with similar issues. The biggest problem is in the chalumeau register from C to open G, although the clarion and altissimo registers are usually fine. On occasion, I'll open extra keys to bring up the pitch on these notes.
If this is the range in which you're having a problem, having upper joint key heights raised a little can help. A slightly shorter barrel might also help, although with a Fobes 65 mm, mine is still a little flat in this register.
Instruments can change a bit over five years, and it might be worth taking it back to have it checked over.
There has been a lot of discussion on this board recently about bore shrinkage, and it's possible that this is part of your problem. You could look into having the bore reamed (if it's necessary), although there are risks involved.
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=359145&t=359082&v=f
Do you oil your clarinet? I've noticed some improvement after starting again to oil mine about a year ago with Bore Doctor (there are also many other good organic bore oils out there).
You might also find this article about oiling helpful:
http://www.naylors-woodwind-repair.com/lifeeverlasting.htm
Post Edited (2012-11-14 20:40)
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Author: Wes
Date: 2012-11-14 23:46
A 1971 Buffet I bought as NOS in about 1992 has always been a little flat needing a 64mm barrel although it raised a tiny bit after playing it in the 90s. The original 66mm barrel has never been high enough in pitch and I now have a 65mm Chadash barrel on this fine instrument, playing great at A440.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2012-11-15 00:18
It does sound strange that your instrument suddenly playing flat. I too assume you are talking about flat to a tuner, A440. I suppose it is possible that the bore changed but even that seems strange from one year to the next unless you left it in an enviroment that could have changed it. Your best bet is to get a shorter barrel, there are many good ones on the market but you really should try several because every barrel will play slightly different and tune differently, just like mouthpieces and clarinets.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: MSK
Date: 2012-11-15 00:54
I have checked with my tuner, and it is definitely me, not the group. We did have an amusing incident where the oboist's tuner got moved to A 448 and everyone had trouble tuning, but that was on isolated incident. I have to work really hard to adjust with my embosure or chalumeau is about 10-15 cents flat when pushed in completely. Clarion is OK pushed in completely. I used to pull out about 3 mm. I'm still using the original barrel. With a ruler, it measures 66.5. The rehearsal space is a cooler of late, but that is true every year. To clarify: I have replaced reeds as needed, but with the same type. If I were to get a different barrel, how much shorter? I'll also see about getting key height adjusted.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2012-11-15 01:12
Have you tried getting someone else to play the instrument (preferably with your mouthpiece) to rule out any change you may have made unconsciously in your playing?
If you can confirm that the setup currently plays flat and didn't before, I'd have a tech check it out first before I changed much. A barrel may in the end be the easiest solution but a good tech looking at the clarinet might turn up something no one here has thought of. A clarinet that's being played regularly shouldn't change like that. Ed's idea about possible changes in the bore is one of the "other" possibilities I mentioned at the end of my other post, but detecting changes in a polycylindrical bore can be tricky and reaming it carries serious risks, especially if the repair tech isn't really sure of him/herself.
Karl
Post Edited (2012-11-15 01:12)
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Author: Ron Scholer
Date: 2012-11-15 10:39
With older Buffets I used 65mm barrels and had to pull out just slightly.
Have you changed MP's.? The Vandoren M13ths play flat. I heard the M-30's do too.
BA, MA, MSE, MST
Post Edited (2012-11-16 05:08)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2012-11-15 13:23
The Series 13s (M13 etc.) play flatter than traditional Vandorens. They're designed to play at A=440, which is nominally the pitch most American orchestras claim to use. The Series 13 mouthpieces were designed for the American market.
Karl
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Author: Alexis
Date: 2012-11-15 14:12
sometimes pulling your lip in too far can make you flat?
has your embouchure changed at all?
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Author: MSK
Date: 2012-11-15 20:20
In response to comments here, I've tried some experimentation with other mouthpieces and clarinets. My intonation on my A clarinet is normal. I'm way sharp on my son's plastic Artley, which I believe is how I remember it from high school marching band. Guessing this means my embosure hasn't changed much. Mouthpieces definitely changed intonation. My usual set up is with a Vandoren B45 which runs flat on the clarinet in question (but didn't use to). My old 2RV runs about the same. An M13 lyre and my son's Fobes Debut run even flatter. An old Selmer HS** was least flat, but sounded stuffy. Monday I'll see another clarinetist with sufficient skill to play test my clarinet to double check whether it is me or the instrument.
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Author: Ron Scholer
Date: 2012-11-16 02:04
Let us know what you find out! This is an interesting puzzle to solve.
BA, MA, MSE, MST
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Author: MSK
Date: 2012-11-26 22:41
I've had two other clarinetists play my instrument, and it was flat for them also. It's on its way to Wesley Rice for servicing.
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Author: reed and MP dude
Date: 2012-11-27 15:09
When you get it back let us know what the deal is. You said it was hard to play. Seems like a leak somewhere, but that wouldn't cause the horn to go flat.
KDK and Ron were wondering about your mouthpiece, but you've been using the same setup.
Often repair men have really cool tools that can measure the bores and maybe make some adjustments.
If it's still flat after getting the horn worked on pick up a barrel. Some of these guys on this board make barrels; professional barrels and I'm sure they can fit your buffet accordingly.
A and Bb r13's new.
Bb r13 1963 backup
Vandoren 56
Ciaccia custom mouthpiece
1.07mm facing amazing mouthpiece
2 Kaspers as spares
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Author: MSK
Date: 2012-12-15 20:28
Well my flat clarinet is now fixed, although the mystery is not completely solved. I had it completely overhauled which included resurfacing 9 tone holes. The horn plays the best its ever played, as this overhaul was by a clarinet specialist rather than the local music store. It's much less flat than before, but I still found it helpful to get a 65mm barrel.
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