 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Beppe
Date: 2010-06-27 13:56
Hello,
my question is quite unusual,
I'm researching about clarinet acoustic effects, in particular I'm looking for timbre effect using different clarinet and mouthpiece pitch settings.
I know that in America is in use prevalently 440Hz instruments and mouthpiece, but someone had never investigated in timbre effects using a clarinet at 440 and a mouthpiece at 442 set (I'm referring to classic setting with a buffet clarinet and a vandoren mouthpiece at different pitch or similar)?
Or viceversa using a 442 clarinet and a 440 mouthpiece?
Thank you
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2010-06-27 14:05
As far as I know, there is no "440" or "442" clarinet as such. In most cases, these subtle base pitch differences (8 cents if I got my math right) are achieved with different barrels and/or mouthpieces.
I don't believe that there's a significant timbre difference between these two pitches when the same model of mouthpiece is used by the same player.
--
Ben
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Author: djphay
Date: 2010-06-27 21:28
Beppe I don't think there's much difference. From my amateur perspective here in the UK (we also have pitch A=440) I don't know anyone who uses the Vandoren 13 series mouthpiece at all, although I know a few who use Hites, obviously American. But not uncommon to see UK players using standard Vandoren mouthpieces even though we play at 440.
Peter Eaton doesn't believe that a mouthpiece (or a clarinet for that matter) has a fixed pitch of its own and doesn't make any sort of A=440 model.
Most people play R13s but I never know if that's supposed 'officially' to be an AMerican pitched instrument...
David
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2010-06-27 21:29
In this thread:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=326982&t=326948,
I published some spectrographs of a Buffet RC clarinet with three different mouthpieces, a Vandoren M30/13, a Vandoren M30 (not a Series 13) with a Lee Livengood facing, and a Zinner blank faced by Lee Livengood.
The timbre change between these mouthpieces is no great, but clearly discernible in the frequency content data. Both of the Vandorens emphasize the higher harmonics when compared to the Zinner --despite their difference in tuning.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-06-27 23:22
My issue with the Vandoren so-called 440 mouthpieces (13 Series) has been aired before. The larger chamber makes a mockery of the 12ths, sending the clarinet and clarinetist into unneccessary spasms to compensate for this mess. I could only imagine how awful this would be to use a 13 Series on a European pitched horn (A=444 or so).
Just DON'T do it !!!!!
The trend was started because there is a sensation that the larger tone chambers of these mouthpieces produces a "darker sound."
Phooey.
....................Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2010-06-28 00:35
Beppe, I'm not sure I completely understand your post. Are you asking what we all think - our _opinion_ of what we think the differences in timbre would be? Or are you asking if anyone has done actual research to determine if there are measurable differences in timbre among these combinations? Or are you asking something else?
Thanks,
Karl
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Author: Beppe
Date: 2010-06-28 07:50
Bob Phillips you get my idea :D, i would your contact to discuss about other things about this argument. Do you have seen differents between 2 first harmonics power using 13 series?
kdk : I would ask both things, thank you
for timbre effects i'm referring to
- sonority ,
- harmonic QUALITY (no quantity),
-energy spectral density (or power density)
- Attach delay ecc...
Paul Aviles: you have completely right. 444 is german pitch, but I would tell you that many players around Italy and France buy a 440 professional instruments using 442 mouthpiece changing (or no) barrels size, this is a rooted inauspicious behaviour, they don't know really about 'dark' and 'bright' sound, and I don't tell you how many problems exist choosing a good mouthpiece here.
Thank you for aswers,
I repeat this forum is better resource online.
Post Edited (2010-06-28 08:44)
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2010-06-28 15:15
Beppe,
I had two posts in the above mentioned thread on dark/bright. In the last, I attached the spectrographs.
email me if you would like to share more data. (Click on my name in one of the posts)
Bob Phillips
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-06-28 17:21
I believe one of the Buffet models is supposed to be a Universal pitch model, that is it comes with a long and short barrel. It might be the Festival but I'm not sure. In any case I agree that I don't think it makes a difference in the timbre on the player. A good player will get the same timbre no matter what the pitch of the mouthpiece or clarinet, (barrel) is made for once they feel comfortable with their set up. I'm not sure I agree with Paul about the problem with the 12th's using the Vandoren 13 series. Although I don't use it myself I have had some students use them and haven't noticed that problem. I think it may be the way they learn to voice it. I've always emphasize voicing the upper 12th's lower to begin with to get a richer tone, unless they're flat to begin with of course, so we haven't had that problem. When I refer to voicing I'm not talking about a loss embouchure but using the throat and tongue. The same way I teach to play the upper register of the bass clarinet, G above the staff to C, so it doesn't squeak. Anyway, it works for me. ESP
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Author: Beppe
Date: 2010-06-28 17:39
Mixing throat and embouchure opening help voicing, but all mouthpieces checked were Americans 440 pitch? All Buffet clarinets ? And what reed generally you advise for your students?
Any information is useful for me. Thank you.
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2010-06-29 16:13
Perhaps a way into this topic would be to begin with the subtle differences between Bb and A clarinets, and between HP and LP instruments. Then the place of 442:440 can be properly ascertained.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2010-06-29 22:50
For electrontic testing varies Vandoren mouthpieces play on the flat side uusing a standard barrel with the Buffet R13's. The worst in my opinion is the Vandoren M13. With the standard buffet barrel and the M13 you will be tuning around 438 to 439, therefore you will need a shorter barrel.
It is interesting that several years ago the Vandoren M13 played perfectly at 440. For whatever reason, most likely a larger bore they now play slightly flat.
To answer your question about the timbra, there most likely won't be a difference. This of course depends on the persons experience, students may have a bit of an issue, but the pros should be fine.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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