 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-01-28 14:37
Again a thread about two different subjects (although related).
First about clarinet pads. As I wrote a few weeks ago I am going to start repairing my instruments myself and will start with my plastic old Eb Vito clarinet. I am ready to order pads, and for the practice I will try cork, leather and skin pads.
I asked MusicMedic and they said to order skin pads about 1.5mm bigger than the measurement of the pad cup. For example, for a 6.5mm cup I need to order an 8mm skin pad.
I asked Windcraft the same and they said to order the same size or slightly smaller than the pad cup even for all pad types, including skin.
Is it possible that MusicMedic and Windcraft measure their skin pads differently, or am I missunderstanding something.
The second question is also related to repairing. I thought about buying cheap old clarinets and saxophones to practice on. I put an add and got a reply from someone that is selling a Jupiter Jas-767 alto lacquered, with some keys that fell apart (but he kept them). Does anyone have any idea what price shoud I pay for that saxophone? He told me a price but said it is flexible and it was obvious the price was high on purpose.
I tried to look on eBay but it is almost always a starting bid which tells me nothing about the real worth.
Thanks very much.
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Author: pewd
Date: 2006-01-28 14:58
search ebay 'completed listings' to see what they actually go for.
there are some switches on the left side of the screen after you return search results. check 'completed listings' and search again.
a jupiter with keys falling apart? i wouldnt pay much unless i knew all the parts were there and it was repairable. one sold 2 weeks ago, in good (apparently) condition, for $150.
i haven't overhauled a vito clarinet lately, i think (memory's fuzzy) that most of the top joint pads are 10mm. i think you also need 1 or 2 9mm, a 12, and probably 15, 16, and maybe 1 or 2 17mm's . maybe a few 1/2 sizes in there. thats for a Bb. Eefer pads are smaller.
i agree with the 'same size or slightly smaller' , i just measured a few pad cups, they show 9.97mm and have 10 mm pads in them. thats measuring the outside diameter of the cup.
hope that helps.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: Fred
Date: 2006-01-28 15:08
Some pads are designed to fit completely within the inside diameter of the pad cup. Other pads are beviled so that the playing surface of the pad extends to the outside diameter of the pad cup. Is it possible that you were given advice on these two very different pad styles?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-01-28 15:28
Cork and leather pads fit inside the pad cups, so measure the internal diameter when ordering these.
Skin pads have a shoulder which fits into the pad cup, but order skin pads the same diameter as the outside of the pad cups.
But beware - some skin pads that do have the same external diameter as the pad cups won't fit into the pad cups as the backing can be too large if the pad cup metal is of a thick gauge, so if you're measuring the INSIDE diameter, add only 1mm (and NOT 1.5mm) to this measurement when ordering skin pads.
I think your best bet is order leather pads (either brown or white), which will be the same diameter as the inside of the pad cup, and repad your Eb with these throughout.
I wouldn't attempt cork pads at this stage, they're more difficult to seat and have to be absolutely perfect - free from defects and then ground perfectly flat (I use 3 different grades of pumice block to grind mine flat) before you can use them, and knowing Vito Eb clarinets have some small pads, these are more difficult to grind a flat surface on than larger cork pads.
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Author: johnsonfromwisconsin
Date: 2006-01-28 16:16
Fixing keys that fell apart often require hard or silver soldering. I'm an amature at repair and find this well beyond what I'm equipped to do.
-JfW
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-01-28 16:51
OK thank you everyone for your help.
I think I won't buy that Jupiter since I doubt I can get a low enough price. He said he wants $220 for it but that the price is flexible. If I can get a really low price then I'll cosider it.
About the pads, Maybe I wasn't clear that I will use all types of pads (leather, skin and cork) for practice. The main goal of repadding the Vito Eb is practice and not to imediately make it the best clarinet it can be.
Is it possible that MusicMedic and Windcraft measure their skin pads differently? MusicMedic was very clear about ordering skin pads 1mm-1.5mm bigger than the cup size. Windcraft just told me to order about 0.5mm smaller when I asked about all pad types, and never said something is different about their skin pads.
Wondering if anyone has any experience ordering from those suppliers?
Thanks.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2006-01-28 18:38
All of the previous advice given so far is very good, Clarnibasss. I would recommend additionally that you practice, initially, by using only one kind of pad. For example: learn to install, impeccably, double skin pads on regular clarinets. If I've overlooked someone else's suggestion I apologize. Then do the same with leather... etc. It's difficult enough getting one kind "just right" without breaking your concentration with different kinds of approaches/thinking. Some folks like to keep a notebook of progress, tips, mistakes, successes. Some don't -- just remembered that, but whatever works best for You is the way to go.
At least for me anyway, *one thing at a time* works far better than trying to "master" several things at once. Get one thing down right and the next challenges will be progressively easier... I guarantee it!
Otherwise, I think you are on the right track. I would look for a sax that's in decent enough shape that, when you're finished with it, you can sell it for enough to get your money back as well as pay for the materials you've put into it. Find something that needs all new pads, perhaps a few springs, but NOT with keys and mechanism "falling apart". You want encouragements, not disappointments.
- r![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif) n b -
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Author: Gandalfe
Date: 2006-01-28 18:48
I think experimenting on instrument repair could be fascinating. But the cost of the tools necessary to do a good job can be prohibitive. Or so I've heard.
Jim and Suzy
Pacifica Big Band
Seattle, Washington
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2006-01-28 20:16
-- "I think experimenting on instrument repair could be fascinating. But the cost of the tools necessary to do a good job can be prohibitive. Or so I've heard." --
The most important tools are:
A set of those very small screwdrivers that almost every hardware store is selling for peanuts.
Q-tips/cotton buds for cleaning in and around tone holes.
Toothpicks for those inaccessible places.
A pair of cheap tweezers for positioning the pad.
A tube of micro cement, glue stick/hot gun for gluing the pad.
A BIC cigarette lighter for heating the pad to remove the old pad/reposition the new pad.
Steve
PS Those screwdrivers are pretty good for pushing the springs back into place as well.
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Author: bwilber
Date: 2006-01-28 22:59
I have gotten a bunch of old clarinets and put pads in them and even straightedn the keys and I got them to seel just fine. It's taken me several months to "get it" as far as seeing bent keys, etc. I learned early on that it doesn't work to get pads that are larger than the cup size. For one thing, it's impossible to get them into the cups and even pads that fit perfectly are hard to get out without destroying them. What I do is to put the pad into the cup and put the key back on the clarinet to see if it covers the hole and then I proceed with cementing it in. I also learned that because I am not an expert, that if I want to resell it on ebay that people want a clarinet that's been done by a professional. I recently sold one that I thought was in good shape and the buyer said it had bent keys and couldn't play it. I was very upset by this because I thought it was in good playing condition. How do professional's learn their craft? Is it by going to a special school or is it by apprenticing? Just curious. Thanks.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-01-28 23:35
There are college courses in instrument repair, or if you have a repairer locally, there's no reason why you can't ask them for advice.
At least with this kind of course or work it's more skill orientated rather than theoretical - if you have the aptitude there's no reason not to persue a career in it. I have, and I enjoy my work. I don't think I'd like to be sat at a desk pushing bits of paper around, I'm not academic in the slightest and have got to where I want to be in my career by the quality of my work - I can see progress happening while I'm working, and the end results do indeed speak for themselves.
If I had the qualifications to be a surgeon I'd do that, or a mechanic, but this is what I like doing.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-01-30 13:27
stevensfo gave a list of "the most important tools" with an seeming implication in the context of this thread that with them one could do a "good job".
I actually find that quite disturbing. I think it would be very rare for me to do a "good" job with just those tools listed. The clarinet (and much more so, a sax) would have to be already in excellent condition apart from the pads, and most clarinets (even more so saxes), even when brand new, are not.
Changing pads and corks is typically a smallish to quite minor part of doing "good" work on a clarinet or sax.
Claribass, most technicians, when choosing a pad size for a clarinet key cup, probably do as I do... Reach for the container of pads that one suspects may fit, test a sample pad in the cup, and change to a size (or two) larger or smaller (&/or change thickness) as required. Any other method is likely to produce regular anomalies.
I have not bought from Musicmedic but have bought from at least 7 pad suppliers to the repair trade. I have never heard of any pads being measured in any other way than across the largest diameter. As has been suggested however, one cannot reliably measure the outside diameter of a key cup, and expect the cardboard part of a bladder pad to automatically fit well without jamming. Musicmedic is a conscientious business, and I cannot imagine them deviating from industry standards.
The felt may overlap the cardboard slightly more, or slightly less in different models of pad, and the thickness of metal of the key cup is also relevant. It is not always desirable for a bladder pad to reach the full diameter of the outside of the key cup. And the sizing of pads by the manufacturer is not always an exact science. Indeed, some really odd anomalies have arisen in the past (and may still do) when stockists buy pads in imperial sizes, and then resize them as metric, or vice versa.
Even with a pad such as a leather or cork one, whose measure typically matches the INSIDE diameter of the key cup, I often have to reach for a size one larger or smaller than what I measured the inside diameter of the key cup as. BTW if you are using cork pads, IMO it is really important that they fit FREELY into the key cup. And unlike one adviser further up, I do not find I have to smooth bought cork pads. They are already VERY smooth; the trick is installing them level, and making sure the key cup is correctly aligned over the tone hole.
"MusicMedic was very clear about ordering skin pads 1mm-1.5mm bigger than the cup size." I think you will find that they were referring specifically to BLADDER pads for CLARINETS, with the measurement taken of the INSIDE of the key cup.
" Windcraft just told me to order about 0.5mm smaller when I asked about all pad types, and never said something is different about their skin pads."
Their statement would apply for almost all leather skin pads on all instruments, and membrane skin pads on flutes. I think that if you check with somebody KNOWLEDGEABLE there - perhaps you were dealing with a sales clerk - you will find that membrane pads for clarinets are a different matter. Perhaps there was a misunderstanding about what instrument was being repadded, or just an oversight.
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