 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: john gibson
Date: 2002-12-21 03:13
WOW...
Just got Benny Goodman's Mozart at Tanglewood.....Him playing the clarinet concerto.....Tell you what . I have a new respect for him.
I've alway preferred Artie to Benny when it comes to "playing". (and probably still do) HOWEVER....Got to give it to Benny for "doing" Mozart. Sabine and all the rest better sit back and listen. Benny, though technically good is best at "being up front".
He really projects. I have to give another listen before I can really give a "critique'...but it is more "listenable" than a lot of others......Later....John Gibson
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-12-21 03:32
john gibson wrote:
>
> Sabine and all the rest better
> sit back and listen.
Oh, I think they have. Most do it much better ;^)
But, then again, I don't really care for Benny Goodman. Give me Buddy DeFranco on the edge with Bebop any day if you want "hot jazz" ...
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Author: HAT
Date: 2002-12-21 14:47
Ahh. . .Benny is so easy to criticize. . .
But notice how you don't hear great clarinet players like Buddy DeFranco criticize him. Among other Benny fans (not of his classical playing)
Charlie Parker
Lester Young
Robert Marcellus
etc. etc. etc.
When folks criticize Benny, it's almost universally for something he DIDN'T do or something he WASN'T. Or for something he tried to do that didn't go so well (like the Nielsen concerto or his other classical playing after Kell's 'intervention.')
Try criticizing what he did best, like running those swing chords with his small combo or rehearsing a big band of great players into a tight ship that could compare with any ensemble in history.
Listen to 'Rachel's Dream' with the sextet from the 40s and try to name 5 people who could do it better. That's clarinet playing with a capital C.
While Buddy DeFranco may be the greatest clarinet player of the 20th century (it would be hard to argue with someone who makes that claim, anyway) it is pretty hard to argue against Benny Goodman as THE MOST IMPORTANT clarinet player of the 20th century.
Just one clarinet player's opinion.
David Hattner, NYC
www.northbranchrecords.com
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-12-21 15:25
Hey HAT,
"Don't care for Benny Goodman" doesn't mean I'm criticizing him - it's a personal thing. He had a great swing dance band, was a good band leader, but his clarinet playing is not my cup of tea. You've read a lot more into a simple phrase than what's there.
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Author: Mitch K.
Date: 2002-12-21 15:34
Are we not allowed to have strong opinions regarding players with big names? Is it not possible to find someone's playing distasteful due to, say, lack of legato fingers, or undesirable sound concept? There are a multitude of different styles, concepts, interpretations, and theories regarding clarinet playing. No one person is going to like all of them.
I think it was Ralph Vaughan Williams that said, "Good music is worth playing badly." However, there's a limit to that: do you want to hear at 10 year old, beginning clarinet player try and tackle the Tomasi clarinet conerto? I know I don't. On that same train of thought, when it comes to doing what he does best, I don't think ANYONE out-does Benny. I have a recording, "Hommage a Benny," played by Sabine and Wolfgang Meyer. They do a fine job (both are clarinetist I greatly respect), however Benny does Swing better than they do.
It's all a matter of taste, and we are all allowed to have it no matter how unpopular.
Happy Holidays,
Mitch King
P.S. I am NOT drawing a parallel between Goodman and a 10 year old. I only said that to illustrate my point.
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Author: HAT
Date: 2002-12-21 19:11
Sorry Mark, You are right. I read what wasn't there.
It's just that when I hear Benny do his thing, I find it hard to believe anyone, clarinet player or no, wouldn't like it.
And yes, Mitch, you are right too.
But if you haven't heard the sextet sides from the Charlie Christian/Cootie Williams/Slam Stewart era, they are chamber music at its best, for me.
Speaking of DeFranco (before) one of his rarest recordings "Mr. Clarinet" is in print for the first time in a long time from Verve. From 1953 with Art Blakey. Sensational.
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Author: ken
Date: 2002-12-21 19:47
I'm not sure I understand why there's a direct comparison between jazzers whose expertise and career fame was in "two" contrasting and irreconcilable styles? Benny, I suppose, was no Bonade, Wright, Marcellus (fill in the blank) but I respect if not admire his classical efforts and lifetime pursuit to become an "all-around" player. Achieving that feat is of course; a personal choice and more valid to some than others, but I think any serious musician would agree it's a worthy and noble goal.
And being fair on the issue I am not aware of Ricardo Morales or Larry Combs recently making a CD of "originally-improvised" Swing Jazz or Bebop standards...no doubt if they did the jazz aristocracy would rip them to pieces in the same fashion Benny is. v/r Ken
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Author: GBK
Date: 2002-12-21 21:01
It's so easy to take pot shots at those on the top.
Anyone remember the slings and arrows hurled at Bernstein and the NY Phil, Von Karajan, and even to a lesser degree Richard Stoltzman?
Each left an important mark and greatly advanced the artistry in their respective fields.
Will we ever again see anyone with the (combined) talents that Benny Goodman had? Not anytime soon... and we all know it.
What I truly liked about Goodman is that he believed he was better than any other musician of his time. The desire to remain the best gave him that inner drive, which was infectious to the other musicians around him...GBK
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Author: john gibson
Date: 2002-12-22 02:42
Ken....
I appreciate your post. Music....is Music....no matter what the format.....I started this post only to state that BENNY did a great job moving from Jazz to Classical. Not as good as those who DO classical for a living.....but man he did a GREAT job as "crossover"....still think Artie can/could outblow Benny any day. Matter of fact....I don't know that any one could out-do Artie.
Dude was good at technical stuff.....Was beautiful at free form...
and his tone was....THERE!
Gibson
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Author: HAT
Date: 2002-12-22 14:43
We can be grateful to Benny for his work in Classical music because of the incredible works he commissioned.
In addition, because his recordings of standard classical works, whatever their inherent worth, became popular by virtue of his presence on the record, making the clarinet into the kind of solo vehicle that allowed people like our current performing soloists to have the careers they enjoy.
Benny had a terrible inferiority complex about his clarinet playing in classical music. Enough so that he constantly took lessons from players he heard and admired, including
Robert Marcellus
Simeon Bellison
and most notably, Reginald Kell, who for some reason he decided to imitate.
I always felt Benny's original instincts in classical music served him best. His first recording of the Mozart Quintet with the old Budapest is well done and compares well with some of the best clarinet playing from the top players of that era in the 'straight' genre. Same for the Debussy with the NYPO and Barbarolli.
GBK, I don't believe Benny thought he was better than everyone. In fact, he constantly worked to make himself better. He always wanted to work with the best players who would challenge him, even hiring another clarinet player for his combo for a time when he considered joining the modern jazz movement.
He knew and admired the great modern players while he made the understandable realization that being Benny Goodman was a better gig than trying to compete with Parker and Gillespie. It made him even more rich, too. This allowed him to commision even more classical works.
He practiced the day he died, enough said.
Hattner
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Author: GBK
Date: 2002-12-22 16:24
There aren't enough adjectives to describe Benny Goodman the man, as he was one of so many contrasts.
He could be rude, infuriating, absent-minded, cheap, self-centered, ruthless and insecure.
He could also be stunningly brilliant, an insatiable workaholic, an ambassador, a great humanitarian, respectful, generous and loving to friends and family.
My favorite line about Goodman is when he took his band to Russia in 1962. When they returned to the USA, Zoot Sims was asked what it was like playing with Benny in Russia.
His answer: "Every gig with Benny is like playing in Russia" ...GBK
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2002-12-23 14:51
I learned the Mozart Concerto and Quintet from the recordings Goodman made at Tanglewood, which my father bought for me when I was a beginner. I recently listened to them again and was quite impressed.
As a jazz player, Goodman had an intense awareness of the harmony -- more so than all but a few "legit" players have -- and his phrasing was always based on the harmonic motion. Certainly there are some small technical flaws, and playing could be more subtle at times, but these preformances are required listening.
Goodman made some ill-advised classical recordings (e.g., the Nielsen Concerto), but the Tanglewood Mozart recordings need no apology.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: john gibson
Date: 2002-12-23 21:01
Ken...
You put it much better than I. Amen. I agree withm the technical flaws.....and need for some subtlety in places....I do however kind of like the "in your face" effort.....I too have the Tanglewood Sessions....wow.....
John
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