 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: bigleagues00
Date: 2002-12-12 01:01
last time, i asked for stuff about webers concertino and got some good feedbacks. now, i'll try it again with brahms sonata in f minor. anybody have anything to tell me about this? i would like info about da piece of music, but am really more interested in historical backgrounds and stuff since i already know how to play most of it. oh, and ive already read sherman friedland's article and found it somewhat helpful. but i'd hafta say mr. friedland and i r two very different personalities and i really do not like his responses and have dissagreed with him on more than one occassion. nothing personal. i respect mr. friedland very much and would still reccomend his articles to anyone who havent read them.
anyway, back to da sonata...
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Author: GBK
Date: 2002-12-12 03:01
bigleagues00 said:
"... but i'd hafta say mr. friedland and i r two very different personalities and i really do not like his responses and have dissagreed with him on more than one occassion..."
Sherman Friedland writes with accuracy (both musical and historical), and has ideas which have been formulated after many years of research, teaching and performing.
As his opinions are not the absolute gospel, they certainly are insightful and thought provoking.
As related to Brahms, I would be most interested to see on which topics and responses the two of you disagree about.
Perhaps that is a good place to begin...GBK
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Author: Simon
Date: 2002-12-12 03:48
Perhaps you can tell us about your musical achievements so we can get things in perspective . Nothing wrong with a differing view, however needs to be constructive and tonnes of experience to back it up .
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Author: Craig
Date: 2002-12-12 10:48
Back in August 200O I gave a lecture at Monash University (Melbourne, Australia) "Exploring Brahms" which discussed both Sonatas in some detail. During the lecture I performed the sonatas on a copy of Muhlfeld's Ottensteiner clarinet and gave a summary of current research into Brahms performance practice. There was also a section where I attempted to demonstrate the practical applications for performance of a careful structural analysis. This was all followed up by a couple of recitals in September that year. Our performance ended up sounding much more free and open than many I have heard...
Anyway if you are interested in my lecture notes email me privately. I don't wish to put them on the internet.
Craig
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Author: bigleagues00
Date: 2002-12-13 01:27
it appears as if this thread is becoming personal, which was not my intent of creating it. i just want to see if anyone had any historical background on the piece.
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Author: Simon
Date: 2002-12-13 02:17
Apologies wasn't meant to be personal.
I find this forum to be of excellent value as it offers advice for players of various backgrounds and experiences and at the same time stimulates discussion.
Mr Friedland's input to this board is invaluable.
Let us all be constructive!
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-12-13 03:10
bigleagues00 wrote:
>
> it appears as if this thread is becoming personal, which
> was not my intent of creating it.
If you're going to "play in the big leagues", bigleagues00, be prepared to back up what you say. If you're going to disagree with Mr. Friedland's views, that's fine, but you must have some basis if you're going to look intelligent.
Discourse and argument, along with asking for your bona fides, is not a "personal" thing. For all we know you may have published some very important papers on Brahms and we'd like to know about it (your "posting style" might just be an affectation to throw us off, for all I know).
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Author: jez
Date: 2002-12-13 17:42
Let us not be too hard on bigleagues00. I too frequently find I disagree with Sherman Friedland's opinions and welcome the opportunity to have some debate about them.
For example in the current instance his discussion of the Brahms F min. seems to gloss over the problem of the infamous C to E flat leap without addressing the most obvious route to success, that of the fingering for the high E flat. He tells us how to play the easy note (LH) but doesn't say how he fingers the problem one, leaving us to assume that he uses the 'regular' fingering;
TR OXX XOkOk
I can't make it work with this and prefer;
R (no thumb) OXX OXOk
or,
just the speaker key and the G# key (my favourite E flat)
If however bigleague is really just after "historical background" then I can't see what more he wants than Mr Friedland's excellent introduction.
jez
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2002-12-13 19:27
There is, it must be said, a couple of little problems with Sherman's introduction. Sherman wrote:
<<<
These works were composed in 1894 and were first performed privately by Brahms and his favorite clarinetist, Richard Muhlfield in November of that year. Brahms at the piano and Mr. Muhlfield "On clarinet" as they say much to the dismay of purists. Present at the reading was Clara and Robert Schumann, and Joseph Joachim. (Would you have fainted dead away or not??) The first public performance was in 1895.
>>>
Yes, I would have fainted dead away. Robert Schumann died in 1856.
Sorry, Sherman, couldn't resist it.
Also, the clarinettist's name is usually spelt Mühlfeld.
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Author: bigleagues00
Date: 2002-12-13 23:21
da fact is dat friedlands article did not help me much in my study of da sonata. n lyke i said, i disagreed witH several of hiz viewz. he sayz da 1st mvt is ridiculous if plaid 120 to da qrtr, but while i agree dat itz better if plaid slower, its definatly ok to play it at 120. he alzo dinks da worst source of mistake dat possibly could made is da 3rd not of da second theme. he sayz dat note should be played as writtn n not plaid wit an attack or staccato. i personally feel it would sound borin if plaid dat way. n lyke dave peacham said, how did friedland get da fact schumann wuz dere at da performanz?
now, all dose were about hiz article on da brahms f minor. but derez more articles wit stuff i didnt lyke.
for example, try dis article http://www.woodwind.org/clarinet/Friedland/Article092.html
why cant he just answer da q? also, here ya get da feelin hes showin off his experienz n feelz hez too good to be answer q's from a kid.
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Author: julia
Date: 2002-12-14 01:10
bigleagues--
What's wrong with the article that Mr. Friedland wrote that you reference? I think he more than adequately answered the student's question. Simply because it is a dose of reality, doesn't mean that the question wasn't answered.
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Author: Jesse Rogers
Date: 2002-12-15 13:54
Robert Schumann (1810-1856) was not present for the first reading of the Brahms Sonatas in 1894. Clara (1819-1896) was present (Brahms, by Walter Niemann pp 122) when the Cl. sonatas, trio and quintet were performed at her (Clara's house) with Muhlfeld on the Clarinet. Niemann cites the diary of Clara's grandson Ferdinand as a source of what was played and who was there.
Jesse Rogers
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Author: Mike
Date: 2002-12-19 19:16
Schiffrin has a really great recording of both sonatas.
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