 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Carol
Date: 2002-08-22 03:53
Probably a dumb question, but musically speaking, what is a Jelly Roll? (As in "Jelly Roll" Morton, or the song Jelly Roll Blues)
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Author: JackOrion
Date: 2002-08-22 04:18
Jazz slang can have a number of meanings. Jelly Roll is mostly used as a dedication to Morton himself. If you want to dig further the term jelly roll was sexual slang for the female anatomy...since you asked.
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Author: Ken
Date: 2002-08-22 04:24
This is an abridged biography of the life of a Jelly Roll...musically speaking.
One of the most important players in the evolution of jazz music, Jelly Roll Morton (1890-1941) helped introduce improvisation to the already established genre of New Orleans ragtime piano. Although Morton claimed to have invented jazz (the honor arguably goes to his contemporary Buddy Bolden), Morton was perhaps the most important jazz composer and arranger of his time.
Morton was born Ferdinand Lamenthe Jr. into a New Orleans Creole family. Morton was drawn to the unrefined ragtime music which was then popular within the brothels of New Orleans’ Storyville District. Morton was impressed by the amount of respect and admiration performers like Buddy Bolden and King Oliver were receiving for their music.
In 1908 Morton moved to Memphis where he earned money performing in minstrel shows and comedy skits. Despite his lack of focus, he continued to play piano and soon began recording piano rolls. What made Morton unique was his idea that a piano player should be able to imitate the complex sound of an entire jazz band.
Morton’s first published recording was "Jelly Roll Blues" (1915). From 1917 to 1922 Morton lived in California where he dedicated his life to gambling and pimping instead of music. He soon lost all of his money and moved to Chicago where he began recording for the Paramount and Gennett labels. Although, among his peers, Morton was considered less talented than contemporaries like Fats Waller and Luckey Roberts, he made others believe differently thanks in part to his own self promotion.
Morton disappeared during most of the 1930s but reemerged after writing an angry letter to Down Beat magazine, which had claimed that W.C. Handy was the originator of jazz. Morton claimed that he had invented the genre in 1902, and the controversy led to an invitation from the Library of Congress to record his music and his life story. In 1939 Morton was asked to record for RCA Victor, and continued to perform live as a solo pianist. In November of 1940 he returned to California where he died one year later of heart disease. v/r KEN
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-08-22 04:32
Ken wrote:
>
> This is an abridged biography of the life of a Jelly
> Roll...musically speaking.
>
Attribution?
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2002-08-22 04:55
I believe you will find that "Jelly Roll Morton" was originally Ferdinand J. La Menthe, or perhaps some other similar surname. Even well-researched sources and authorities disagree. The surname "Morton" is said to be a corruption of "Mouton," improbably reported to have been adopted by Ferdinand to avoid being presumed to have French ancestry. How anyone could think "Mouton" would not be a French name is a mystery to me. Where and exactly when he acquired the monicker "Jelly Roll" may be lost on the cutting-room floor of history. "Jelly Roll Blues" was titled by Morton, who wrote the piece.
In recent times, researchers have never been able to fully verify the colorful whirlwind life that Morton earlier claimed, but many of his wild tales of travels and professions (brothel pianist at age 12 or 17, night club owner, cardsharp, procurer, etc.) are known to be true, while others seem impossible to deny. Hence, it is now believed that he was not an inveterate liar, as many had once thought. His calling-card identified him as "The Inventor of Jazz." This may carry more truth than puffery, for Morton does appear to be the first composer in the Jazz idiom to actually transcribe his music in traditional notation.
Hope this helps.
Regards,
John
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2002-08-22 05:17
I hereby confirm JackOrion's comment re defining a jelly roll. It's a soft, round, sweet thing. This is why I presume, not taken from any source I have seen, that he may have acquired this nickname while practicing one of his less savory professions. Furthermore, to add to Ken's statement that Morton died of heart failure, he claimed to have been suffering from the effects of a Voodoo spell. And while my conclusion is that 1890 was in fact the year of his birth, as listed by almost all sources, Morton himself claimed at some times to have been born in 1885. This may have been a youthful ploy to make himself seem older.
And Mark, as far as my attribution is concerned, I did some reading on Morton a while ago and what I posted is my synthesis from memory of several sources, all from the www.
Regards,
John
amateur historiographer
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Author: diz
Date: 2002-08-22 05:27
Jelly Roll - I had one with my coffee at breakfast today.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2002-08-22 06:18
GBK: Thanks for that link. Most of the "Jelly Roll" information seems immediately convincing and consistent with other similar slang usage. Heading over to the Morton reference, I believe the anecdote on his use of "Jelly Roll" in referring to himself is a plausible tale of its origin as Morton's name. It certainly wouldn't have been out of place for a procurer, either.
Here's hoping we don't get deeply into the etymology of the term "Rock and Roll."
Regards,
John
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Author: beejay
Date: 2002-08-22 09:22
I once had a record that had a beautiful blues sung in English and Creole, which contained the words "My momma told me to be a good girl. Ain't nobody's going to get hold of my jelly roll, no not to save your soul." If anyone can tell me what that song is called, I'd be very grateful.
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Author: drc
Date: 2002-08-22 12:35
A song with very similar lyrics begins simply "I ain't gonna give nobody none of my jelly roll." I believe it's called "Jelly Roll Blues," but it would take several days to find my record and be certain.
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Author: Don
Date: 2002-08-22 12:39
Beejay: The song, "I Ain't Gonna Give Nobody None of My Jelly Roll," is a traditional jazz standard, recorded by the Firehouse Five in the early 1960's and probably countless others before and since. Its lyrics vary depending on the whims of the singer, but almost always include, "I wouldn't give you a piece of cake to save my soul!"
When a man performs the song, he usually sings, "My moma told me today / Before she went away / To be a good boy, and / She'd buy me a toy / Cause I'm my moma's pride and joy!"
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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2002-08-22 13:42
As long as we're avoiding the etymology of the term "rock 'n' roll," we should avoid the etymology of "jazz" as well. Shall we just say they are similar.
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2002-08-22 13:56
As Bessie Smith sang it:
I need a little sugar in my bowl.
I need a little hot-dog between my roll.
(What you doin' down there -- ya look like a snake.)
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2002-08-22 14:23
Lawson, " ---Clarinet" pg 184 seems to credit him with "the high clarinet playing harmony above the melody [line]", what we [I] think of as "standard Dixieland music". Don
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Author: Bob Arney
Date: 2002-08-22 15:18
What a shock to hear that Al Gore did not invent Jazz, along with the internet.
Bob A
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Author: Bob
Date: 2002-08-22 16:37
Mouton may indeed be a french word but I have also heard it used by native Italians and it refers to a woman of ill repute. Many of the old blues and jazz lyrics refer to subjects and topics that I personally wouldn't dare describe here. The "original" use of the term jelly roll,however, referred to a confection something like a pancake that was spread with jelly and then rolled up...at least that's my experience.
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Author: Ken
Date: 2002-08-22 19:41
Mark, I cut/paste the posted biography as a quick and helpful reference…no Biographer attributed. To be honest, I've read better. From my personal (amateur) historical study/research of Jelly Roll's life and times, familiarity with his music (performing and arranging) and colorful hand-me-down tales from colleagues and mentors it's reliably accurate. It did contain disparaging remarks revealing his boisterous side.
Although a jazz founding talent and idiom cornerstone I myself, am convinced Jelly Roll was as much a masterful media opportunist and prankster (if not con artist) as a brilliant musician/entertainer. Numerous past music legends, Hollywood personalities, politicians and even famous clergy routinely generated fictitious self-propaganda and wild claims about themselves to fuel their own careers and create mystique. Some others who come to mind are Mae West, 20-30s religious celebrity Amy Sample McPherson and more recently, the late comedian Andy Kaufman.
Quoted as arriving in New Orleans in 1902, Jelly Roll wasn’t the "focal point" in sparking the jazz revolution as he proclaimed. It’s clearly documented by real jazz historians the early development of jazz was a compilation/convergence of multiple styles of music and cultures; Afro-French heritage from the Creoles, ragtime, blues, Afro-American spirituals, tin pan alley, folk and even marches were all contributors. Jelly Roll WAS a pioneer in utilizing prearranged, semi-orchestrated effects and the first to begin writing out individual parts for each instrument. (i.e. Red Hot Peppers). But, bands/Leaders such as Buddy Bolden, Johnny Stein, “Papa” Jack Laine, Nick La Rocca, Tom “Red” Brown and Louisiana Five were already well-established bands performing in taverns and brothels in Mobile and New Orleans/Storyville.
However, if I had a traditional jazz hero, idol and monumental influence to complete my musical existence Jelly Roll would be right at the top. On my current trad CD, I reverently paid tribute to his music featuring 4 of his repertoire classics; Black Bottom Stomp, Panama, Freakish and Sweet Substitute. What an indescribable joy it is to play his tunes...definitely the cream in the Creole! v/r KEN
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Author: GBK
Date: 2002-08-22 20:02
Ken wrote: "...On my current trad CD, I reverently paid tribute to his music featuring 4 of his repertoire classics..."
I've had the pleasure of hearing Ken's cd, and want to add my praise for his fine renditions of the above mentioned tunes (as well as the 13 other dixie/trad tunes which are included).
Ken is a fine clarinetist and he (and his group) should be extremely proud of this first cd.
Thanks Ken, for keeping this important music alive - I look forward to hearing more...GBK
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2002-08-22 20:59
Bob, thank you for expanding my knowledge of conversational Italian. Curious wordplay, since from the French, Mouton translates into English as "sheep." I note that you refer to "a woman of ill repute." Among certain of my French-speaking friends (lots of those in and around New Orleans), such a person might be referred to as a "lady of negotiable virtue."
Ken, thanks for sharing your understanding of ol' Jelly Roll. I've not heard some of those selections you mentioned in far too long, and I see a new CD in my future.
Thanks to others for contributing to this interesting (to me, at least) thread. And Carol, thank you for having asked.
Regards to all,
John
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Author: Bob
Date: 2002-08-22 23:04
John: the main reference to "mouton" (sp?) I have is from a documentary titled "Timmy and Lucile" which is about an Italian couple from Chicago. Lucile says that one of her female relatives called her a "mouton" when she was young and it really hurt her feelings.
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Author: John Kelly - Australia
Date: 2002-08-23 00:04
As Mark Pinner points out it's a jam sandwich. Jelly to the average Aussie is the wobbly stuff kids eat.
Jelly to a jazzman is JR Morton.
The other Jelly Roll has a sexual connotation, but being a well brought up lad, I never did figure out which part it referred to. Same as that Seinfeld episode where where he can't think of his girlfriend's name "rhymes with a girl's body part" Was her name Jelly Roll too?
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-08-23 00:47
I think at this point we've gone past the answer and the history of "Jelly Roll" Morton. We'll leave the inquiries into the etymology of words related to the jazz scene (and, indeed, the word "jazz" itself) to more scholarly sites. Indeed, a simple search in a general search engine such as Google would have answered that particular question much more succintly and quickly.
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Author: Carol
Date: 2002-08-23 03:05
Mark Charette wrote:
> a simple search in a general search engine such as Google
> would have answered that particular question much more
> succintly
Mark, I really apologize for asking. I knew it was dumb question. It won't happen again.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-08-23 03:15
Carol wrote:
>
> Mark, I really apologize for asking. I knew it was dumb
> question. It won't happen again.
No apology needed, and not a dumb question. It's just that sometimes questions are better answered via other means than a BBoard.
And sometimes you get more than you bargained for!
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Author: Bob
Date: 2002-08-23 15:29
Mark wrote: a simple search in a general search engine such as Google
>would have answered that particular question much more
> succintly
Although I am a big user of Google and others I would like to point out that what one reads is not always the truth. As Mark Twain or some other commentator said, "All I know is what I read in the newspaper." Some still think he was not jesting. Who really knows the origin of his nickname...and if Jelly Roll was quoted by someone, who is to say that JR was not just messin with the suckah.
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