 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: David Dow
Date: 2002-06-10 14:04
I own about four clarinets and two are very old but seem to reist just fine. I have never in 20 years found my instruments to blow out and yet this seems to be a common experience among pros. I use pretty standard set ups and this is 4 and 41/2 reeds by Vandoren with standard american mouthpieces. I wonder if blow out means the clarinet needs an overhaul, becuase,- it seems I am not one who has had this problem..... and my clarinets are 10 to 30 years old.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-06-10 14:41
"I wonder if blow out means the clarinet needs an overhaul"
That's what I think. Not just an overhaul, but a really good overhaul.
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Author: William
Date: 2002-06-10 14:41
I think that it is our own perceptive values that change, rather than our equipement. It is humane nature to change as one gains experiance and knowledge over the years and a distinctive indicator of that inherant change, for clarinetists, would be in what we believe to be the "good" sound and how we evaluate the sound of our own clarinets. It may be a case of simple bordom as we all need change in our lives to sustain interest. Can you imagine playing "Bolero" for the rest of your careers on every concert?? Wearing the same sports jacket or driving the same style auto for the rest of your live's??? To answer the question, I do not subscribe to the "blown out" or "swabbed to death" theory, but rather believe in a "need for something new" theory to sustain interest in one's life's work as a musician.
There is a joke about the musician (sax player) who, upon his death, standing at the "pearly gates", was asked if he preferred Heaven (sitting around on clouds all day playing the harp) or Hell (playing in Glenn Miller's band which was heard in the background playing "In the Mood." Of course, after little thought, the sax player chose the "swinging" Hell scene, and upon entering, was given his vintage Mark VI tenor sax and an eternal supply of the best reeds ever. As he took his chair in the great sax section, the band began playing the famous sax soli and--after the first four bars--began it's eternal four-bar repeat, over, and over, and over, and over..........well, you get the point.
Variety is the spice of everything we do--even our clarineting. Remember, there is always the harp.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-06-10 14:42
However there are probably SOME clarinets that have gone a little strange from the timber distorting to an oval shape.
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Author: David
Date: 2002-06-10 16:29
Don't think so. I've just retrieved my Bassi from my neice. I got it in about 1972 (and it was ancient then...), played it pretty constantly until about 2000, when I treated myself to a pair of Imperials, because I started orchestral stuff.
It still blows fine. Mellow low down, really bright up top, and rock-solid in tune. Bodged with a Boosey and Hawkes 926 mpc and a B & H barrel (unidentified, but probably a Regent, or Edgware at best).
For trivia fans, the B & H barrel is 65mm, while the genuine Bassi one in the box comes in at a stunning 60mm. Pre war, at that sort of pitch d'ya think?
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2002-06-10 17:32
David, my new Amati ACL 602 was supplied with two barrels: one is 60 mm, one is 59.5.
And regarding the original question, should anyone really care, put me down for a thoroughly meaningless NO.
Regards,
John
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Author: David
Date: 2002-06-10 19:29
Wow. The Imperials romp in at an arms-like-a-gibbon 68mm. Any advance?
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Author: Peter Spriggs
Date: 2002-06-10 20:03
David,
After over 25 years of selling new Buffet clarinets which are not "blown Out" to professional players, including yourself, who want to get better performance from their present clarinets which are "blown out", not only do I believe it, I KNOW IT!
There are some incredibly knowledgeable first rate players that believe a blown out clarinet, put away for a year or so, will regain it's "not blown out" characteristics. For those that may be replying to this that do not know what "blown out" means, it is primarily the loss of focus or intensity. A new barrel will sometimes bring a clarinet a long way back!
Peter Spriggs - The Clarinet Center
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Author: ron b
Date: 2002-06-10 20:49
Um, hummm... if a blown out horn might come a long way back (maybe , how far away was it blown and how much of it will come back with its new barrel. Whose barrel will accomplish such a wonder? Are they made of boomerang wood?
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Author: nzdonald
Date: 2002-06-10 21:43
yes, this has been really really really well discussed in the past
- i liked Greg Smiths comments on this
- and as i mentioned before somewhere, Joachen Seggelke made interesting comments about the quality of wood that has not been aged properly prior to use (like microwaved vegatables- eat soon not later).
those two between them know a hell of a lot more than most of us, but the fact is- if it still sounds good, why not play it? Yes, an instrument can "blow out" (it can also "blow in") but most of the time whe're talking a small difference that will only be perceptable to the most discerning ear, and maybe you will change with the clarinet and still enjoy playing it. i think my B flat clarinet has "blown out", but i don't have the money to buy another one, and mine is still better than a lot of the junk that people down here play (in nz you can't choose from 10 or 20- you take what they give you, this results in a zillion kids paying big $$$$$$ for bad horns, FRANKLY)
got to practise
donald
ps- my friend Elsa (China Phil) has a GREAT R13, it must be at least 10 years old and has played for hours, and it is NOT blown out, that's for sure. In another 20 years it'll probably still be better than mine.
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Author: jbutler
Date: 2002-06-11 01:08
I have to take a stance against the "blow out" theory. As long as the instrument can be brought back to specifications mechanically, the wood can be dealt with also. We know that wood over time contracts as well as build up calcium and other debris in the tone holes and area which is undercut. Removing this excess debris and build up, polishing tone holes and bore, and finally with proper oiling and waxing I think that the instrument can sufficiently provide a few years more service. I had almost given up on my 1968 Buffet R-13. I sold it and told the customer I would overhaul it before delivery. After the overhaul I was tempted to return her money and keep it. Man, it played like it was brand new. My opinion, I respect everyone's as well.
jbutler
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2002-06-11 03:08
I echo J B's comments re: blow-out [no], likely need of repair, refurbishing-restoring to original condition, including hot oil treatment of the wood and even reboring [yes]. I've seen quite a few older pro LeBlancs and Selmers, some of which were "low-mileage" horns , little diff. from newly broken-in. I admit to wondering if the blown-out theory may be one of several reasons for wanting to buy a brand new clar!!! Don
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-06-12 11:42
Perhaps it is the only term that will impress the wife when hubby wants money diverted to a new clarinet.
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Author: David Dow Symphonia nb
Date: 2002-06-12 12:38
I have taken a very considerable amount of time thinking and trying instrument and still can't believe they blow out. Thea King still uses her husband's clarinets from the 40s as well as a set from the 70s. I also think that poor instruments through overplaying or even overblowing may evoolve poor characteristics yet see no evidence that they die. My students generally find the r13s all resistant at first and even on my older models the resistance is quite bit/ and taking a stance I feel blow out is rare on a well cared for instrument.
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Author: nzdonald
Date: 2002-06-12 20:30
1) nobody ever said "all instruments will blow out" (every piece of wood is different, and has been prepared differently, and looked after differently)
2) the top proffessionals, when they refer to "blow out" are usually talking about an extreemly subtle change, not "oh my god, this clarinet was great yesterday, and now it's trash"
3) everybody seems to agree that clarinets "break in" at the beginning, it would therefore follow that for some clarinets "break in" means and improvement, but if the clarinet was considered to be really really good to begin with, the "break in" could actually mean a loss of some of the desired characteristics..... thus- "blow out" !!!!
Thea King would have taken over Thurstons Clarinets AFTER he had played them for ages, yes, if she then looked after them well you would not expect dramatic changes in their characteristics- but this doesn't really mean anything where the "blow out" thing is concerned.
lah de dah- i'm off to work, play good tunes everybody
donald
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Author: dAVID DOW
Date: 2002-06-12 22:47
Blow out usually refers to the dead nature of the tone and also the lack of life in the sound...this would mean something pretty drastic and maybe the instrument is dead....anyways its back to rehearsal and a recording session. Fred Thurston also would be a good case on point where instruments don't blow out! I feel they don't but some feel they do...Oh well its off to a recording session....
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Author: Gregory Smith
Date: 2002-06-13 03:37
Yes. No matter what you term it. Something happens.
Just because it can't be scientifically dechiphered YET doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
Some people like to stay with their same instruments that have changed over 20 or so years - even those clarinets with a ton of milage on them. They just get so used to them that they are unable or unwillg to change for whatever reason.
Gregory Smith
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Author: GBK
Date: 2002-06-13 03:50
Greg...Just curious, if you would care to share..
How recently did you purchase your last set of clarinets, and how old was the set they replaced?
Many of us would be interested in the frequency in which a top flight player changes equipment.
Thanks...GBK
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Author: James Garcia
Date: 2002-06-13 08:32
Hey Everyone!! It's great to hear so much talk about this. I was talking to Mr. Smith on the phone earlier this week about finding a new clarinet and we talked about blow out for a little while. He knows alot, I took notes. He told me that his clarinet is showing some small blow out signs. But I forgot to ask him if changing barrels would fix the blow out problem. Now recently I had been talking to another professional in chicago and she was telling me about how her clarinet was blown out and it was time to go out and buy another horn. When I saw her a while later I was surprised to see that she had the same horn. She told me that replacing her barrel seemed to be the fixer uper and that a new horn wasn't needed. Now in theory, since the barrel of the clarinet is the closest to the mouthpiece, the pressure of wind, ect..... wouldn't it be the first to blow out? I was told before that the barrel is where the focus comes from it woud make sense that change the barrel would be a good idea. What do you all think?
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Author: jbutler
Date: 2002-06-13 11:53
Do you ever wonder what happens to clarinets that are blown out?
I wonder if they wind up on the used clarinet shelf at the local music dealers for resale? Hmmm, if there isn't any value left in them, then why? An automobile is totaled in a wreck, it isn't fixed and sold as quality used goods. Perhpaps there is some fraud going on if indeed they are "blown out". Just a little mental musing too early in the a.m.
jbutler
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Author: Gregory Smith
Date: 2002-06-13 13:26
GBK:
About 6 -7 years - that's playing all day, almost every day. One notices a lack of resistance and focus compared to a new instrument which is the quality one has available to "push into" to help with the focus and core. This is so not to have to unnaturally compensate physically with the embouchure, wind, mouthpiece, reed, etc, to overcome the problem of a clarinet being worn to a certain degree. I'm not sure that the term "blown-out" isn't a little misleading as to the severity of the problem.
But the insideous nature of the problem doesn't easily allow one to keep perspective about this resistance over the long term.
Gregory Smith
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Author: Gregory Smith
Date: 2002-06-13 13:39
James. I would disagree. This is a temporary, incomplete patch. The changes also occur further down the instrument, especially in the upper joint as I understand it.
I am presently limping by with replacing barrels now and then until I find a new Buffet - but the problem is only half fixed with the barrel as I experience it.
In other words the clarinet would then not feel and be capable of all of the things a new instrument would be capable of. It would simply feel and sound like a "blown out" clarinet with a new, more resistant barrel on it. You would feel both phenomenon at once.
An analogy would be as if there were a mouthpiece that was inherently too free blowing for you. If you tried to solve the problem by putting a heavier reed on it, the end result would be a mouthpiece that performs as if it is too free with too heavy a reed on it! One can't change the formula or recipe so easily. These artificial compensations are easily revealed IMO...especially when comparing with the real thing - a new instrument and a barrel fit to that instrument.
Gregory Smith
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Author: C@p
Date: 2002-06-14 02:50
I was told that my 195x Evette Schaffer Master Model had wear and tear on the key joints, especially on the long rod that goes down to E3.
Could such wear cause the problem of lack of focus, extra rattle in the lower notes, or other signs usually associated with "blow out?"
C@p
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-06-14 13:13
ANY insecurity in the mounting of this key will cause problems, the most common symptom being that right hand E (which pushes the key DOWN on the upper pivot) works better than left hand E (because it pushes the key UP against the upper pivot.
This is because any slack in this pivot will affect the linkage via the 'crows foot' to the F/C key differently depending on the fingering used.
This common problem is exacerbated by the fact that the most common adjustment problem on clarinets is that the two pads involved close at the 'back' before the 'front' seals.
This is an area of adjustment that many repairers just don't seem to understand how to get right.
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Author: Bob
Date: 2002-06-14 15:58
Regarding the "wood" part of the question....then why do Cremonas and Stradivarii(sp?) (and wood Martins and Gibsons) get better with age?
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Author: Josh
Date: 2002-06-14 16:22
Maybe it has something to do with the fact that they don't have water running through them the entire time they're being played :P I'm pretty sure if you subjected a Strad or a Guarneri or an Amati or a Del Gesu or a Guadagnini to as much moisture as the bore of a clarinet is subjected to, in no time at all you would have a fabulously expensive wall hanging. (little NB: Cremona was the town in which these luthiers made the violins, not an actual maker.)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-06-14 17:20
Or perhaps it has something to do with the fact that those instruments use a sounding board made of wood to couple a vibrating string to the air. We do away with all that - we vibrate the air directly. Don't need no stinkin' bridge and sounding board ....
In other words - we don't use the vibration of the clarinet body to create sound - we use the air column directly.
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Author: Joe O'Kelly
Date: 2002-06-14 17:28
If anyone has any "blown out" clarinets I would gladly take them off your hands.
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Author: Bob
Date: 2002-06-15 12:10
>they don't have water running through them
This presupposes that water has something to do with "blowing out" a clarinet. IMHO the players who keep a clarinet long enough to
even consider the subject of its being "blown out" don't leave moisture in their horns long enough to do any damage. I,for one,admit I don't know if "blown out clarinets" or "heaven" exist.
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Author: JackOrion
Date: 2002-06-26 04:48
Is this something that classical players are concerned about, or do most jazz players feel that a horn can blow out? It's kind of like that old saying "It's in tune enough for jazz" and off you go....
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