 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Sandra F. H.
Date: 2002-01-31 01:41
Do you play clarinet and recorder? What professional recorders do you use and where have you purchased them? Websites and links, please, too. Thanks
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Author: diz
Date: 2002-01-31 01:44
Ah, the best professional recorder (IMHO) is the Moeck - they're German, both baroque and "normal" pitch - lovely sound and fantastic keywork (on the tenors and basses).
http://www.moeck-music.de/
(there is an english area on this)
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Author: Robert Small
Date: 2002-01-31 02:43
Also look at Mollenhauer, Yamaha, Fehr, Kung, Huber, Coolsma, Dolmetsch, Rossler, Blezinger, Adler-Heinrich, and others.
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Author: Robert Small
Date: 2002-01-31 04:27
Here's a dealer with a nice catalogue to browse through. http://www.aswltd.com/index.shtm
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2002-01-31 05:19
There two types, English and German. German is better and called blockflute not recorder. You can find many good URLs using this key word.
Such as http://www.earlymusic.gil.com.au/history.htm
I have a Molenhauer soprano and Roesler Alto both made of rose wood. (Soprano is in C(Tenor too) and Alto in F. Fingering system seems to differ at a glance but really they are same, just transposed.) People with small hands, like me, may find tenors difficult to handle.
When I play my soprano at a park, birds, really abruptly, start to sing, very excited. Maybe they are mistaking me for opposite sex birds. I feel quite bewildered.
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Author: A David Peacham
Date: 2002-01-31 08:37
As a recorder player long before I took up the clarinet, I am surprised to read Hiroshi's comment that "German" recorders are better than "English". If he's referring to country of manufacture, no doubt he is right; if he's talking about fingering systems, then few recorder players would agree with him.
When the recorder was revived in the 1920s/30s, two fingering systems were developed. "Baroque" or "English" fingering was based on the fingering of old recorders. "German" fingering was "simplified" for use by young children - most notably, the fingering T1234xxx was tuned to F/Bb, whereas on Baroque-fingered instruments it is unusable, lying half-way between F/Bb and F#/B. Unfortunately, the "simplification" results in horrendous complications as soon as the music strays from the easiest keys. So far as I know, all quality instruments use Baroque/English fingering, wherever they are made.
Good-quality plastic instruments are made by Yamaha, Aulos and Zen-On; these are now considered to be better than any cheap wooden instrument. Quality wooden instruments are mass-produced by Moeck, who might be described as the Buffet of the recorder world. There are a number of craftsmen who make very high-quality wooden instruments, which can cost as much as a pro clarinet; the US firm von Huene (http://www.vonhuene.com/) are often considered the finest. Von Huene himself designed many of the instruments mass-produced by Moeck.
For solo/baroque music, I suggest a Moeck rosewood or blackwood alto. Some solo music uses soprano or sopranino, but these are very hard to play in tune (think Eb clarinet or soprano sax.)
For consort/renaissance music, it is best to stick to instruments all of one make; this is particularly true with plastic instruments. You also need to decide whether to go for baroque or renaissance design; the latter are louder and more authentic, but are harder to play and are useless for baroque music. A plastic consort set can be had quite cheaply, though the bass costs much more than the others, and the design will be baroque. Wooden consort sets are available (at a price) in both baroque and renaissance designs.
It is also possible to buy recorders designed specifically for modern music and for playing baroque music alongside modern instruments. Mollenhauer make two varieties of these.
You also need to decide on pitch; 440 and 415 are common, and other pitches may be available too.
A useful website is the Early Music Shop, http://www.e-m-s.com/.
Do wooden recorders crack? You bet they do. Do they need oiling? Well, that depends. Sounds familiar?
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Author: Robert Small
Date: 2002-01-31 15:27
German recorders are better? What's the basis of this? Swiss companys like Fehr and Huber are perhaps the most highly regarded but to claim something is the best is an exercize in futility. A waste of time.
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Author: Bob Arney
Date: 2002-01-31 16:18
I have a 30 year old Horner Tenor and I noticed Horner is not even given a mention. Are they still in business?
Bob A
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2002-01-31 19:58
Sandra -
I play as much recorder as I do clarinet -- sometimes more. A recorder depends on the voicing rather than a reed and embouchure, so the quality of the instrument is much more important for recorder than it is for clarinet. With a good mouthpiece, an experienced clarinetist can sound good on almost any instrument, but not even the best player can sound good on a lousy recorder.
The instrument to start with is the alto (in F -- pitched halfway between a flute and a piccolo). It's the great solo instrument. Kids start with soprano, but only because they have small hands. Almost all the best solo music is for alto.
With all respect to Hiroshi, diz and Robert, for a serious player, no machine-made recorder is good enough. Skip over Moeck, Mollenhauer, etc. and go to artist makers who do most of their work by hand.
I strongly advise you to start (rather than end up) with the von Huene Workshop, http://www.vonhuene.com/ . They stock Moeck, Mollenhauer and various other machine-makde recorders at good prices, but you need their own wonderful, fairly expensive instruments. Their basic "Rippert" baroque alto recorder at A=440 is $1,300, and it's worth every penny. I have seven of their recorders, from soprano through great bass, and each is a joy to play. An alternative is an alto from Tom Prescott http://www.prescottworkshop.com/ or Jean-Luc Boudreau http://www.boudreau-flutes.ca/ . I recently got a Boudreau alto that I like very much, and Tom is a great maker.
Don't be deceived, by the way, by the claim that the Moeck Rottenburg recorders were "designed by von Huene." There's simply no comparison.
If you want to play solos or trio sonatas with excellent players, you will need an alto at A=415, a half step below modern pitch. There's a lot of difference between 440 and 415, and except for Michala Petri, all professional players work at 415. There are many fine makers of altos at 415. Probably the place to start is von Huene's Stanesby model at $1,700, which has a strong voice and plays well in all registers. I played several of them at the von Huene workshop recently, and all were excellent.
If you're VERY serious, you'll want different instruments for music of different nations, since the tessitura and the tone colors are different.
German music (Bach, Telemann) call for a bright-voiced recorder that plays easily up high, such as those made by the same Denner family that made the first clarinets. Von Huene makes an excellent Denner copy at $1,700. Tom Prescott makes an equally fine one at $1,695, and Boudreau makes good ones, too. My Denner was made by Michael Grinter in Australia http://www.castlemaine.net.au/~grinter/recorder.htm , but he has a five-year waiting list. The late Frederick Morgan was a great maker, but you have to find someone willing to sell one of his instruments, which doesn't happen often, and Morgan was an intuitive maker who produced some duds.
French music calls for a dark, creamy sound, strong in the low register. French pitch was A=392, a full step below modern pitch. Although it's not listed on the site, von Huene makes a wonderful Shearer copy at 392, at around $2,000. I have a Prescott Bressan copy that I love. His price is $1,695, with "corps de rechange" (interchangeable center joints) to permit playing at 415 or other pitches, at $425 each. I've never played Grinter's Bressan copy, but people I trust have nothing but praise for them. I recently played a gorgeous 392 Bizey copy at Boudreau's workshop.
To do serious recorder consort playing, you'll need a soprano (in C -- same pitch as a piccolo), an alto (in F), a tenor (in C -- same pitch as a flute) and a bass (in F), all at A=440.
Baroque sopranos are too shrill -- even von Huene's. The instrument to start with is their Ganassi model, which is a transitional instrument with the full baroque range but a tolerable sound and plenty of power at the bottom end. The one-piece model is $700, but go for the two-piece at $1,000. Prescott also makes a fine Ganassi soprano.
For an alto, get a von Huene Rippert, a Prescott or a Boudreau, which you can also use for solo playing. The next step is a Ganassi/transitional alto from von Huene or Prescott. (I have a wonderful Prescott, and von Huene has recently made a significant improvement in their transitional alto.)
For a tenor, it's von Huene, and maybe Prescott, period. Nothing else is even close. No machine-made tenor is even borderline acceptable. Grit your teeth, get on the waiting list and save up the $2,100 or so they get for it. You'll use it for the rest of your life, getting joy from it every time you pick it up.
Bass is a problem. Von Huene made a single run years ago that was incomparable, but you can't get one. The von Huene workshop sells some usable basses by Moeck and Yamaha -- strong but unrefined -- not great, but the best available. You should buy through them, though, since the quality is variable, and they will send you a good one. (They're very good about sending instruments out on approval.)
Eventually you will want a great-bass (in C). I even have a contrabass (in F). Moeck, Yamaha or Paetzold are the ones to try. Get them through von Huene.
For VERY serious consort playing, you'll need renaissance recorders. I prefer Tom Prescott's instruments, but they use a different set of fingerings and are in mean-tone tuning. The von Huene renaissance recorders are excellent, but I prefer Prescott's. For the EXTREMELY serious, there's Bob Marvin, who makes entire consorts pitched at A=460.
Eventually, you will want a sixth flute (soprano in D), a fourth flute (soprano in Bb) (Boudreau makes an excellent one) and a voice flute (tenor in D) (all, of course, at 415). Von Huene makes a marvelous Terton soprano at 415 and a "Loeki" tenor at 415 that may be even better. I played one at his workshop last December that was as good a recorder as I've ever touched, but I couldn't justify laying out over $2,000 for a low-pitch tenor. By the time you want these, you will know the players and makers well enough that you can pick for yourself, deciding the model, wood, fingering and tuning you want.
Best regards. When you come to New York, lets do some recorder.
Ken Shaw
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Author: David Pegel
Date: 2002-01-31 22:30
I double on recorder as well. In fact, I play both for our church. I play a Yamaha (plastic) and am in fact rather impressed with it's quality considering it was really cheap.
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Author: Robert Small
Date: 2002-01-31 22:53
I don't want to get into a wrangle with Ken who has alot more experience with recorders than I do but I think you can find good playing recorders for alot less than a grand. How about the Swiss made Hubers? Huber is a family operation producing hand-made recorders. Their grenadilla alto runs about $600 and has an excellent reputation. How about Kung, another Swiss company, with pro model altos and tenors for well under a grand.? How about Fehr? More pricey but highly regarded. How about the Dutch company Coolsma? To say that Von Huene is the ultimate in recorders is like saying Buffet is the ultimate in clarinets. Anyone ever hear of Selmer, Leblanc, Yamaha, Patricola, Rossi, Peter Eaton, etc.?
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Author: Sandra F. H.
Date: 2002-02-01 03:12
Thank you all, and particularly Ken Shaw, for your time and information. A site: www.recordershop.com is interesting. Any more advise?
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2002-02-01 03:15
Yes I was wrong. English fingering system is called Barock and prefered by almost all professionals.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-02-01 14:35
Ken, havge you heard of my local NZ friend Alec Loretto, recorder maker who has for some time been lecturing worldwide on recorder making?
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2002-02-01 15:00
Robert -
You have to take what I wrote in context. Sandra asked about professional recorders, and that's what I wrote about.
I've played Kung and Fehr recorders, but not Hubers. The ones I've tried were OK, particularly for consort work, but you really can't compare them with hand-made instruments.
So much depends on the voicing of a recorder. You can't adjust with reeds and embouchure the way you can on clarinet. On clarinet, I think I sound pretty much the same on a Buffet, a Selmer, a Leblanc, a Yamaha, a Rossi, or a Bundy. On recorder, I make (and am able to make) only the sound of the individual instrument.
If you're starting out on recorder with a solid base on clarinet, you should definitely *not* begin with a handmade recorder. You need to do the scale and arpeggio work to train your fingers, and you need to learn to blow more gently and with more control. This can be done very nicely on, say, a plastic Yamaha, which as David suggests is really remarkably good, and perfect for learning on. Hand-made recorders require great control of breath -- a learned "feel" of connecting with the voicing of the instrument -- that comes only after playing for some time. A plastic Yamaha responds with a wider range of breath pressure than a von Huene. Much more than on clarinet, you have to accommodate to a recorder and coax the sound out of it, and while you learn to do that, you're better off with a recorder that doesn't require the sort of precision and feel you haven't yet attained.
If you're serious about recorder and decide to go further, you'll try other players' instruments, go to workshops where makers display their instruments and decide for yourself what you want.
During this period, you'll probably move to an intermediate recorder, such as a Moeck, and many people are satisfied with that, or don't want to spend twice the price for something better.
Hower, there really is a difference. For example, I've played a lot of tenor recorders over the years, and my von Huene tenor is MUCH better than any of them. It's the only tenor I would consider playing a solo on. I've never regretted the amount I paid for it.
Ron B suggested Nick Lander's wonderful site at http://members.iinet.net.au/~nickl/recorder.html . There you'll find names, addresses and web sites for probably 100 makers around the world, at various levels of quality and price. In the end, you go with what you like and can afford.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2002-02-01 15:08
Gordon -
I've heard of Alec Loretto, but I've never played one of his recorders. I don't get to New Zeland that often....
According to his listing on Nick Lander's site, he makes instruments only to order, so I have to assume he knows what he's doing. He doesn't appear to have a web page or an email address.
I assume he apprenticed with Morgan. What are his recorders like? Are there any recordings of people playing them? And, to get back to the subject of this board, has he made any clarinets?
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Robert Small
Date: 2002-02-01 15:49
Ken--I defer to your knowledge and experience. I am fairly new to recorders and and have alot to learn (I'm learning fast however). I have a Mollenhauer "Modern Allto" in grenadilla and a Mollenhauer "Denner" soprano in pearwood that seem to be very fine instruments. They're unquestionably a major step up from the plastic Aulos recorders I started on.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-02-02 08:26
Ken, I think Alec must be protecting himself from excessive correspondence. There are many references found by doing a Google search on ["alec loretto" recorder]
He used to make many recorders and also harpsichords, but has been making them less now that he has confidence that his European students can make them just as well. He developed hand operated machinery capable of quickly and exactly following templates to mass produce outstanding windways, which were historically rather hit and miss even with top makers. He has given classes in Europe several times per year for many years. I know his analytical knowledge and skills are extensive indeed, and I assume they are very highly respected.
He was a music lecturer when I was studying to become a school teacher. I remember him importing 100 plastic recorders simply to experiment their details to ascertain effects.
I thought he was largely self taught, with input from taking detailed measurements from top recorders from museums around the world, but he may have had a mentor or two.
Sorry to deviate so far from clarinet stuff. I'm proud of this guy as a fellow Aucklander.
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Author: Sandra F. H.
Date: 2002-02-02 12:52
This has been great, folks! Oh...decisions! I am going to try some things suggested here, and the links are great. Some of the teachers here are reviewing the BB, as well, because I recommended it. Gee...how do I do clarinet, oboe, AND recorder? Alec Loretto...student makers? Are the recorders available? Some concerns are, for me, if I utilize a fine recorder voiced at a different pitch from other recorders that people are playing what do I do besides transpose? What do we do for students or teachers who will have a mix of recorders? I'm used to transposing because of clarinetting, but what about some others?
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Author: A David Peacham
Date: 2002-02-03 09:08
Sandra, you can't use a recorder "voiced at a different pitch" from the people with whom you're playing. 440 and 415 are a semitone apart. If they are playing in C at 415, you'll have to play at B in 440. You might be able to do this between A and Bb clarinets. On recorders, you can't. The remote keys are just too difficult to play, and the cross-fingered notes sound too different from the plain-fingered ones.
As for playing "with a mix of recorders": if you mean by this that you will be playing recorder consort music, your best bet, as I said earlier, is a matched consort set. You are likely to get better results from a matched set of plastic instruments than from an ecletic mix of, for example, Mollenhauer soprano, Fehr alto, von Huene tenor and Moeck bass. Top-quality baroque instruments like von Huene aren't intended to be played in recorder consorts, they are intended to be played with harpsichord, baroque oboe, voice etc.
One other link you might find interesting - http://www.leecollins.com/custom.htm. This firm customises plastic recorders. I have no idea whether the results are as good as they claim.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-02-04 13:23
Another solution is to find your group and THEN buy a suitable recorder or get one made to your group's pitch specification.
I don't know whose site this is but it may interest you.
http://members.fortunecity.com/izakpolman/instrument4.htm
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2002-02-04 18:34
Gordon -
Glad to learn more about Alec Loretto. I'd love to try his recorders.
The site you suggest is run by Izak Polman. His list of recorder makers is anything but comprehensive and includes a number of makers who are no longer active (e.g, Phil Levin). Nick Lander's site is much more comprehensive and reliable. Also, Polman's ISP, Fortune City, dumps you into an endless loop of popup ads for casinos and pornography, which you can get out of only by closing your browser and going off-line.
David -
I play my von Huene recorders in consorts all the time. They're not just for solo work, and they can be played very gently.
David Collins removes the plastic "plug" that forms the windway on plastic recorders and installs a cedar plug. Opinions are divided on his work. I've played a couple and thought they were noticeably better than the original, and they don't cloud up with moisture as much, but it's still a plastic instrument.
I've gotten pretty much the same result by taking the plug out of a plastic recorder and taking the shine off the windway with 600 grit sandpaper. It also improves things to take the shine off the inside of the bore, round off the bottoms of the tone hole chimneys very slightly, take the shine off the labium and even off the outside of the instrument.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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