 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: julia
Date: 2001-12-27 04:41
I am an adult who has decided to take up clarinet for fun- I have played piano for years and recognize the benefit of using decent instruments. I am currently borrowing a Buffet R-13, after starting off on a plastic Pruefep (?) Ultima. Big difference in sound, not much in my playing ability yet. I am currently looking for a clarinet of my own, but have gone into information overload. Most folks are suggesting Buffet as a reliably good instrument.
I have been spending way too much time trying to figure out the difference between all the different Buffet models there are out there... I have been looking through Ebay and am to scared to bid on anything yet because I am not sure what is a good buy or not. There are a number of R-13s out there, not many E-12s, and a bunch of E-11's and B-12's. And then there are all those Buffets for sale that only say "evette" or "crampon" or have other people's names associated with Buffet. What should I be looking for? What is the difference between an "Evette" and a "Crampon" and a "Crampon a Cie"? I have looked at the Clarinet Association Web Pages and have been reading lots of bulletin board comments on clarinets. Is there some sort of web page that describes the different levels of Buffets and all the different types which have been manufactured? I think a good intermediate clarinet would work well for me- I do not really want to spend more than $500 on a good used instrument- what are some reasonable brands and models to look at? What would be considered an excellent buy on eBay, or some other source?
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2001-12-27 13:26
Hi Julia,
In my experience, asking this bulletin board for recommendations on a clarinet to purchase is not the way to avoid information overload ;^). I will try to answer some of your specific questions, however. Remember, however, that what you are about to read is my opinion. Others who respond to this thread will undoubtedly disagree. You will have to sort things out. Caveat Emptor.
First, there is a brief history of Buffet Crampon & Cie at the following address:
http://www.boosey.com/Instruments/Buffet/FrameBuffet.htm
Clicking the "instruments" button at the upper right of this page will take you to some limited information about each of Buffet's currently available models.
"Crampon & Cie" is part of the company's name, not a model name. (This misunderstanding is fairly common among newcomers, so don't feel embarassed.) Per the history, the son of the company's founder married Zoe Crampon and the name Buffet Crampon was born. "& Cie" is French for "& Company."
While there are many other good instruments and brands worth consideration if you have the time and patience and ability to judge the differences (and few beginners have this ability), given what you have said in your post, any marginal improvement they might provide over a Buffet is IMHO not worth the trouble of researching and trying all of them. In the computer industry there is (or, at least used to be) a saying, "Nobody ever got fired for recommending IBM." Again IMHO, the clarinet equivalent is: "Nobody ever got fired for recommending Buffet."
According to Buffet, among their current models:
B12 is a plastic student model
E11 is a wooden student model (effectively a wooden B12, but don't let that put you off),
E12 is a low-end intermediate model
E13 is a high-end intermediate model
I think a beginner can go a long way with a B12 (certainly a long way further than on most no- name plastic models -- I am guessing here but I suspect that your Ultima is either a Pruefer, in which case it is probably very old, or a cheap import probably from China, India, etc.) Most clarinetists eventually want a wooden instrument, though, so I will recommend an E11 (unless you have very large hands). Even though Buffet regards it as a wooden student model, many stores and musicians consider it the equal of most intermediates. IMHO, it is plenty of clarinet for an adult in a community band and I know professional sax players who consider it a good choice as a doubling instrument.
I wouldn't recommend paying extra for an E12 or E13 (i.e., only buy one if you can get it for the same price as an E11). I don't find the differences between the E12 and the E11 sufficient to warrant the difference in price and, I think, most people who would benefit from an E13 probably should be looking at professional models, instead.
Before Buffet adopted the B12, E11, E12 and E13 designations (around 1981), they used the name "Evette" to designate their student models and "Evette & Schaeffer" to designate their high-end intermediates. While there are possibly a few exceptions in the Evette & Schaeffer models, I think the following equivalences are generally accurate:
Evette (plastic) -- B12
Evette (wooden) -- E11
Evette Master Model -- E12
Evette & Schaeffer (and Evette & Schaeffer Master Model) -- E13
Considering your specific situation, here are my recommendations:
1. Buy a NEW E11 from a reputable dealer. A good price for a new E11 from a reputable dealer is around $600. Buying from a local dealer is best for obvious reasons but if no local dealer will sell one for around that price (or no local dealer is reputable ;^) ), contact one of the large mail order houses -- Woodwind and Brasswind, Muncy Winds, Fred Weiner, International Music Suppliers, to name a few.
2. If you are taking lessons, have your teacher (or a friend who plays well) play test the instrument to make sure it is working OK. Even new instruments can be knocked out of adjustment in shipping. If you are not taking lessons, sign up for at least a few so that the teacher can try out your instrument and, of at least equal importance, start you out correctly. (It is easier to avoid bad habits than lose them.) A second best choice here, if a teacher is out of the question, is to take your new instrument to a reputable repair tech and have them test play it.
3. (Very important!) Buy a good beginner's mouthpiece, either a Hite Premier or a Fobes Debut. (Either should be under $30 from one of the mail-order places.)
In your case, I would not recommend buying a clarinet off eBay unless you have a teacher, friend or repair tech who can evaluate its condition and the seller will allow you a week to return the instrument for a full refund (less shipping costs). If you have someone who knows clarinets very well who can help you and you feel you must buy on eBay, here is my opinion (based on following clarinets on eBay for a long time) on intermediate Buffets you will find there. These are simplified recommendations, given your background:
1. Plastic Evette: There are two versions here.
a. the label has "Sponsored by Buffet" in the center. These are older ones, do not buy at any price. Generally will not be worth the cost of fixing up.
b. the label has "EVETTE" in the center. $50 -- $75 (if it looks to be in good shape)
2. B12: $75 - $100 (If you are patient, you can find one in this range, though it will have "shiny" plastic. The newer ones (only a few years old) have "brushed plastic," they will go for more. If you really want a good B12, pay up to $150 for one of these. If you find one made of clear lucite, avoid it at all costs because I WANT IT. ;^) The last time one sold on eBay it went for over $700. More than I was willing to pay.)
3. Wooden Evette. There are three versions here.
a. the label has "Sponsored by Buffet" in the center. Avoid these. Period.
b. the label has "EVETTE" in the center. $100 -- $125 for either of the two versions here, "Made in France" or "Made in Germany." Those made in France are older but appear to be generally regarded as better-made. The newer German-made are quite similar to the early E11s. (E11's and E12's are made in Germany.) In this case you will probably find that the higher the serial number, the better. In any case look for serial numbers above D15000.
4. EVETTE Master Model: $125-$150. Look for serial numbers above D15000
5. Evette & Schaeffer and Evette & Schaeffer Master Model $150 -- $225. ONLY buy these if they have a K-prefix serial number and stay above around K16000. Only pay the higher price for an instrument that appears to be in good playing condition with no structural defects (cracks, chipped tenons, bent or broken keys).
6. E11 or E12 in good playing condition. $300-$350.
Some may regard my prices as on the low side. However, IMO, buying on eBay requires the buyer to accept most of the risk in the transaction (e.g., for a start, shipping costs and eBay seller's fees are often dumped on the buyer even if the seller has misrepresented the item). Also realize that any used clarinet you buy on eBay will almost certainly require fix-up work. Such work can take weeks to complete (before you can hold a playable instrument in your hot little hand) and add $100, $200 or more to the cost you pay.
Best of luck,
jnk
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-12-27 13:39
Jack has given you some good information on Buffet clarinets. I agree with his suggestion that you check out their website and read about each model for yourself. If you want a new clarinet, you might try woodwind and brasswind, or International Musical Suppliers (800-762-1116) for a good one at a discount price. Both these discounters have used instruments as well. The advantage would be the guarantee--and both will allow you to return the instrument if you don't like it. The E-11 is one I have recommended to beginning-intermediate players a lot. It has a nice tone and is a well-constructed instrument. When you decide you want a better clarinet, or can spend the money for the R-13, then you can move up. Or, if you have the money now for an R-13 and are serious about the clarinet, you should go ahead and get an R-13.
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Author: Blake
Date: 2001-12-27 14:12
Wow.. great summary from Jack - I found this web site to be helpful too from surfing around here on sneezy.
http://www.musichouse.com/Cat_Buffet/BuffetTITLEall.htm
It has a good summary of some of the technical and quality differences between the models in a way that makes more sense to me than the buffet web page on boozey. Only thing I would ad to Jack's is that the difference between the beginner buffet B-11 and B-12 is that the 11 doesnt have rings. Dont really think that makes a sound difference on a plastic horn... Blake Arlington, VA
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2001-12-27 15:14
Blake,
Do you mean B10 rather than B11? I had not heard of a B11 and just checked the Boosey website and didn't find one mentioned. According to them, the B10 has plastic body rings and no bell ring so it sounds like what you were describing. BTW, the other site you turned up looks like the Buffet section of Boosey's website before the recent "facelift." Thanks for pointing it out.
Best regards and happy holidays,
jnk
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Author: julia
Date: 2001-12-27 17:41
Thanks SO MUCH! I will be calling around to find a reputable used instrument dealer- Your summary was much more comprehensive than anything I could "piecemeal" together from searches. Especially the information on older models......
Thanks again,
Julia
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Author: Dixie
Date: 2001-12-28 06:33
I really appreciate Jack's explanation. I wish I had found this b-4 I bought on e-bay.
I am buying an Evette and the person is not sure whether it is plastic or wood. She is selling it for her stepfather. Fortunately she has already told me it was wood so if it is not I will not have to go through with the deal I hope. Are all Evette's that were made in Germany wood? Thank you for all your help and I hope someone can answer my question.
Dixie
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Author: Dan
Date: 2001-12-29 03:32
To Jack: thank you for the consise and informative explanation on the Buffet line. I printed your post and am sure I'll be referring to it from time to time.
Now, if someone would do the same for the Leblanc line, I would really appreciate that very much. I see so many older Leblancs for sale on ebay that I know nothing about.
Thanks again, Jack.
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2001-12-29 15:21
Buffet marketed an entirely different set of models in France when I was there in the 1968:
-> "Symphonie" = orchestral
-> "Continental" = chamber
-> "Super Dynaction" = jazz
I bought an A instrument that is probably in the chamber line - don't know - they wouldn't talk to me afterwards. Buffet sold me the instrument during their annual August shutdown when it appeared I was an Israeli, but became unfriendly when I turned out to be from USA. It is grenadilla, nickel silver keywork, does not have a very big sound, and was $147 at their office on Passage du Grand Cerf. It came without a case in a paper tube - this got me home with under a dollar left.
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Author: The Watcher
Date: 2012-05-03 08:01
Since this discussion last ended Buffet has made some changes to their line. They have ended their German manufacturing and moved everything back to France. The also somewhere along the line eliminated the E12 altogether.
I would like to know what everyone thinks about the changes made to the E11 and E13 now made in France.
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-05-03 13:13
The Watcher wrote:
> Since this discussion last ended Buffet has made some changes
> to their line. They have ended their German manufacturing and
> moved everything back to France. The also somewhere along the
> line eliminated the E12 altogether.
> I would like to know what everyone thinks about the changes
> made to the E11 and E13 now made in France.
This is not quite true. As has been discussed here recently on several ocassions there are now multiple versions of the E-11 being sold. Some of these are being made in the old Leblanc factory and are being labeled as the "E-11 France" and others are once again being made in Germany and sold simply as "E-11". Use the search functions to find threads discussing "E-11 France". You will find that many of the recent reviews have been less than complimentary.
Post Edited (2012-05-03 13:33)
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Author: dgclarinet
Date: 2012-05-03 14:08
Brenda, in 2001 said: "If you want a new clarinet, you might try woodwind and brasswind, or International Musical Suppliers (800-762-1116) for a good one at a discount price." Ah yes...the good old days. I miss them.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2012-05-03 18:30
....and Julia's email address is no longer valid.........
Bob Draznik
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