 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-10-29 06:01
Symphonies are business, and they reflect the current economic times. Good companies that projected annual increases in sales have met exactly the same problems as the orchestras. Business is always a fine balance between projected revenues and sales and real revenues and sales, along with trying to market the business in ways that are innovative. Sometimes a marketing plan that looks good on paper and has been thoroughly researchesd beforehand just doesn't pan out.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2001-10-29 06:16
Mark, that is true. But, are our orchestras marketing themselves well enough? Or, as many have written, is "classical" music experiencing a slow death? Certainly the major classical labels (with the exception of perhaps Naxos) have clearly been cutting back on new projects. Have the high ticket prices to live classical events (to cover necessary mandated operating expenses) made this just "music for the upper class only"?
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-10-29 06:43
Generally, classical music has been for the "upper classes" for a long, long time - music, opera, and ballet are prohibitively expensive to produce.
The "death" of classical music has been predicted over that same period. The end of imperial monarchies and the "court musicians and composers" and the churches getting out of the music business (in general) I think had a much larger impact than what we see today.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2001-10-29 07:05
One would have to agree that classical record sales are at an all time low - and not just since Sept.11. Musical instrument sales are slipping, and as we now see, our major performing organizations around the world have long since been experiencing very difficult times.
Is the audience for this type of music drying up as the population base ages? How do we rebuild a core audience which perhaps will contain some of the future donors and contributers that these groups will need to survive?
I often wonder if "the Greatest Generation" and the "Baby Boomers" will be the last group to actively support classical music?
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Author: Rene
Date: 2001-10-29 09:21
I can't speak about US.
But here in Germany we have an overhead of offers of classical music, as well as other music events. I live near Ingolstadt a town in the 100 thousand people range. We have at least 3 big concerting choirs, a lot of smaller ones, a very busy orchestra, some smaller orchestras, the Audi car company sponsoring high class concerts from abroad, international Jazz days, and so on. Moreover, almost every suburb as well as every smaller town in the area has a church choir, a mens choir and a brass band, who all want to perform. Then there are non-musical events like the theater with its three houses, magician days, festivities and so on. In short, there are two to three events worth going to every week.
Thinking about the Munich program makes me dizzy.
No surprise, a badly placed concert can be a financial disaster. Two many events share the same groups of people, who are willing to hear a certain type of music and want to spend money for it. Since I am involved in one group, I could tell you how much an oratorium costs. It is a fortune! Of course, most of the big concerts are sponsored by Audi or the town cultural program. Otherwise, only a very few would survive. The local suburb stuff is done on a volunteer basis.
Rene
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Author: donald nicholls
Date: 2001-10-29 09:36
well, as a NZer married to a German i met in the US, i can say that in Germany there is a huge support for classical music because it is an integral part of history and culture. In the US there are plenty of music lovers, and a huge number of talented musicians but i would have to say that, like in NZ, classical music is not really deeply part of the culture. By generalising like this i am bound to annoy someone.... so, to divert you another observation
....at a performance of "the Creation" last saturday, the Principal Oboe player turned to me and said "how does the audience manage to stay so old?". She said that as long as she could remember the audience had been predominantly "old". I told her that i could remember being 13 years old, going to a concert and thinking "oh my goodness, by the time i grow up the audience will be dead, and there'll be no one to play to!" But this never happened... SOMEHOW the audience stays at the same age- the amazing powers of classical music!
just keep playing the good tunes
donald
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Author: Daniel Bouwmeester
Date: 2001-10-29 09:46
In Switzerland, orchestras (even amateurs) get subventions from the national lottery. Orchestra music is probably as "unpopular" as anywhere else in the world, but the government would probably not allow their artistic "propaganda" tool to go bankrupt. Such as you wouldn't be able to fire a football team.
GBK I thought that the older someone was, the more interest this person had in classical music. That's what I've noticed when playing or going to concerts. I think actually that as the aged population increases the need for classical music will be greater.
I think education and mediatisation has a lot to do with how popular this music is. I see for example the example of US which has an important band music tradition in schools. There's a higher percentage of people that play clarinet in US than in Europe (excuding UK which have always had this band tradition). The proof can be seen by looking how popular this message board is.
In Geneva, our orchestra (Suisse Romande Orchestra) has been setting up a program to encourage youth to listen to their concerts, they have cheap rates, they go play in schools, they have special music programs in concerts (such as film music). http://www.osr.ch/jeunes/default.html
But as everyone know, a lot of musicians never have (and have had) any money, and have never been able to deal properly with it. BUT there are still professional orchestras and there are still people listening to this music, and I think it will continue this way. Unless of course we end up in a George Orwell world.
Regards
Daniel
Delft, Netherlands
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Author: Jim
Date: 2001-10-29 11:03
To add another sour voice to the topic, I was told that an executive with a major recording company said:"Orchestra want to record what has been recorded for the past 50 years. Conductors feel safe doing this and are supported by their boards. We canceld BSO because I couldn't stand another recording of the Beethoven 5 and a Schubert anything. Most of the new music is so disjunct that you lose your place while trying to hear what is going on."
Now like it or not, the caste system of classical music has been and probably always will be, our burden to carry. Don't talk. Don't whisper, dress in the code, go the library and listen to the program before the concert like certain critics seem to do. Too many "rules" for our casual society and too much expense for customer and supporters to bear.
Ten top orchestras can support the clasical music scene financially. Regional orchestras will survive, they always have and they always will.
As for "old concert goers," I have been playing concerts for over 50 years and the audiences have always been old. This isn't all bad. If you have a bad night, "Rite of Spring" reaction might not take place.
Hang in there folks, but it ainta gonna git any better!
Jim
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2001-10-29 13:05
Yes, I'm afraid it is also true in the US "Heartland" "River Cities" [NE Okla in my case], where the annual subscription costs seem to rise every year, even with some cut-back in concert "headliner" costs. The only full-houses we have had recently are for the service bands-orchs-vocals concerts, which being free, are "sold out" early. They are exceptionally good, with a wide range of music and patriotism, and are "popular" in the real meaning of the word. Many of us here are increasing our contributions [above ticket costs] in support of "live" music. I feel that active, free [or nearly so] participation by us musicians is required, in symphonies, community bands, church orchestras and small groups to keep our music alive and well. Just throwing out a few thots, will add after reviewing all of the comments to this fine thread. Don
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Author: ginny
Date: 2001-10-29 15:54
At first glance, I find it strange that the San Jose Symphony just declared bankruptcy and shut down. The last remaining classical station was the second most popular radio station in the area last year!
In some way this is no suprise. The musicians are paid as a part time job, at $22,000 a year. Tickets are around $30, some more and some less. So if they employ a hundred people (ushers, bookeepers etc.) wages cost $2.2 million and they have to sell nearly 74,000 tickets! That's a little under 150 performances with 500 people attending each.
Ginny
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Author: Werner
Date: 2001-10-29 22:12
This story went through my head by reading the subject:
In 1997 they tried here in Germany to shut down
the Thüringen Philharmonie Suhl and fired the complete
staff of about 60 members. Reasons as usual:
The City Suhl and the Country Thüringen were a bit out of money.
The reaction of the staff ?
They went into an hunger strike.
After 2 1/2 or 3 weeks this orchestra was in business again.
It would have been a too bad advertisement for the politicians
not to find a for the artists tolerable solution.
Later this orchestra was merged with the Philharmonie Gotha.
(now Philharmonie Gotha-Suhl)
The US situation is completely different of course ..
For the details - obsessed (only in German, sorry):
http://www.solidaritaet.com/neuesol/1997/16/musik.htm
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Author: Jim (E)
Date: 2001-10-30 04:55
I'm not sure classical music was any more popular 40 years ago when I became interested in it as a teen and young clarinetist. There are in South Jersey a number of community and pro orchestras and choirs performing classical and "pops" programs. I play in one, and sing on and off with 3 others. They generally gather audiences of 200 - 500. And yes, our players and audiences tend to be older. (I'm now beginning to catch up to them!)
Technology has certianally helped with the net providing info and forums like this one, and e-commerce providing easy sources of recordings and music.
I remember an interview in People or some other popular mag with Wynton Marsallis back in the late 80s after he had recorded several classical alblums. He said something to the effect that his love was jazz but he recorded classical to support himself. I remember thinking that jazz must really be a tough market if classical was better!
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Author: Ed
Date: 2001-10-30 16:07
I think that it is the job of educators and music lovers to try to cultivate music in our culture. Often, I have even seen music departments of the public school programs stop teaching classical in general music classes or performing groups because it is not what the kids want to hear. Yes, it is the easier approach. Young children would rather eat cookies, candy and soda than a rounded meal. Popular music may sell a lot, but just because McDonalds sells lots of burgers doesn't mean it is good food.
I think it is our job to try to bring quality music to the public. Teach them to not be scared of it, find ways to sell it. Often, we approach programming the same old ways and expect the audiences to come to us, some new ideas are needed. At the same time, I believe that even with an unsophisticated palate, people can recognize good music.
A few years back, I was teaching in a high school program. I had an electric bass player in the jazz band, whose tastes were the Allman Brothers and Grateful Dead. My jazz students also played in the concert band to help the ensemble and so they would get a well rounded education. After this bass player was in the program a few years, he was talking to me one day about a piece we had played while he was a freshman and going on about how it was the best piece we had ever played! It turns out it was on of the well known transcriptions for band of a Bach Prelude and Fugue!
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2001-10-30 16:42
We are in a recession and there is unfortunately no telling where it will lead. As a case in point, there were orchestras in big trouble during the 1958 recession. The Detroit Symphony Orchestra layed off most of their first chair players, then hired new people, such as (retired clarinettist) Paul Schaller, when things looked better the next year. The monolithic nature of the auto industry here makes the local economy swing more than in many other regions.
The labor relations situation is much more progressive now, orchestra management is less heavy-handed, and unions are generally in a better position. The bottom line though is that things are tight all over, and a lot of arts organizations will be struggling until the economy turns around. I hope they put language into their contract in Toronto to get that money back when things improve.
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Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2001-10-30 18:46
A couple of years ago I got into an e-mail dialogue with an administrator of the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra, and I asked him how it was that the city of London in particular, and England in general, could support so many top-notch orchestras (London Symphony, London Philharmonic, Royal Philharmonic, the orchestras of Birmingham, Manchester(Halle), Liverpool, etc.) ---- his answer was, "they can't!". He told me that almost all of the British orchestras were in a continual state of deficit operation and always near bankruptcy, and this was before the current world recession and the Sept. 11 events. So I suspect this precarious existence of our orchestras is old news, and probably a 'normal' state of affairs.
I know one thing: I can personally make more money playing a few weddings a year with a "Top-40" band, then I can playing every week with orchestras, concert bands, jazz bands, and pit bands for shows. Generally, there seems to be an inverse relationship between the quality of music and the financial rewards --- the lower you go culturally, the more money there is to be made. This is just one of those paradoxes of life we have to accept. We shouldn't give up the fight to promote great music and great musicians, but we shouldn't get depressed when we fail, as inevitably we will (most of the time).
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Author: Rob
Date: 2001-10-31 04:11
I believe that many arts organizations have done an excellent job of pricing themselves out of their own markets without providing any significant increase in value for what they charge. A $30 ticket may seem reasonable to some, but it is not reasonable (on anything other than an occasional basis) to most people with a family to support, a mortgage to pay, etc. I was also somewhat amused by the post which mentioned that the San Jose players ONLY earn $22,000.00 per year as a part-time position. Supporting organizations that pay at rates like that is something that the general masses masses cannot really be relied upon to do. While I agree that players should be justly compensated for their ability, talent, skill, education, etc. I think it is unrealistic to assume that people do not attend because of a lack of interest. Many people I know who would not seem to have an interest in classical music do have such an interest but they do not attend because of the cost. The reason the audiences are almost always "older" is because it is usually older people who have sufficient disposable income to spend on such non-essential (and entirely transitory) activities. It may also be comforting to everyone to remember that another business in this country that is almost exclusively supported by older and wealthy Americans is also hurting just as badly and that is the investment business, the businessin which I am employed. We lay off thousands so that those of us who remain can continue to receive our own disproportionately high salaries. Things are tough all over.
Personally, I'd rather buy a CD and a bottle of wine and listen to a program of my own choosing in the privacy of my home. It's cheaper, I can dress (or not) as I please, I can smoke (horrors!) and I don't have to listen to some philistine behind me telling his bimbo girlfriend or boyfriend how "Stoltzman really isn't that good, ya know".
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-11-01 09:47
"players should be justly compensated for their ability, talent, skill, education, etc"
I regard my playing as a hobby. I perform many nights per year as a hobby - for the fun of performing.
Perhaps the answer to the problem is for more players to regard their music as a hobby.
The hobby astronomer, gardener, cook, hiker......... may have a great deal of expertise. A luxury is to have their hobby shared and/or appreciated by others, but they never expect to be paid for that. The pleasure and rewards are largely intrinsic.
So we could decimate the number of professional orchestras. the others could play play for pleasure. Is there an underlying greed in expecting hobbies to become paid professions?
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Author: Rob
Date: 2001-11-02 00:07
Gordon (NZ) wrote:
"Is there an underlying greed in expecting hobbies to become paid professions?"
In America, there most certainly is an underlying greed to nearly everything that is done in a public forum. The thought process at work here in the USA suggests that if people are willing to attend, then they should also be expected to pay for the privilege, and the amount they are expected to pay is directly tied to the prestige accorded the event. If the price of admission isn't high enough, then the performers must not be very good; at least that's the way most people seem to think. Undoubtedly, America is filled to the brim with wonderful, dedicated and talented artists who willingly perform for nothing but the joy they derive, but they receive little respect or recognotion because most people think that if these performers were any good, they'd be charging lots of money for their performances, receive professional management, national performance venues, etc, as if all of that happens magically for anyone who has talent.
This all cheapens the entire notion of artistic performance as the dollars spent translate into an estimation of the quality of the artists performance, talent and ability. People think something is good because they spent a great deal of money to see it. This is perpetuated by the disturbing lack of adeqate arts education available to the majority of our nation's populace. True, there are a few urban centers where this is not always the case, but they are the exceptions here and not the rule. America is home to the most obscenely paid entertainers on Earth and many of them are sadly lacking in talent and ability. None of this should come as a surprise to anyone. If you can get enough people to say something is good, the majority of America will believe it without question and then pay any price for it. We are largely a nation of sheep-like psyches who do not want to do something so disruptive as to express an opinion of our own and risk having someone decide they don't like us. Were that to happen, America would cease to continue as the great please-love-me-slurp-fest it has become. How a nation founded by some of the most un-likeable, antisocial, independent and intelligent minds of their age could have given rise to such a complacent and conformist society, I will never know.
None of this comes as any surprise to me. We are being devoured in America by our politically correct culture and its unspoken (and unspeakable) desire to make everybody in the country feel good by providing public validation to garbage. Support for truly deserving arts organizations is only one of the social casualties here. The exercise of critical thought is dying too. We wouldn't dare tell an "artiste" they aren't any good. Someone may think badly of us, the "artiste" may not like us anymore, and (horror of horrors) we might damage their self-esteem. We have become a nation where every performance receives a standing ovation, regardless of quality. I find it embarrasing. It really is the thin end of the wedge.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-11-02 05:20
Wow - a mighty heavy statement, and I have no reason to disbelieve any of it because NZ tends to follow America a few years behind, and I see all the seeds of what you say are already growing strongly here.
Are we all heading down a road where we see (or pretend to see) BS as the only reality? And security consists of not having our BS shattered?
I am proud to be at the front line of the backlash, but it does not make me a rich man, nor establish many friendships.
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