 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Lorie
Date: 2001-09-13 00:36
Okay - I went to New Orleans, had lots of fun, heard GREAT players...but the highlight of the trip was my birthday - August 17th, my husband bought for me a new Buffet Vintage. What a great horn. I had it only 2 weeks and 2 cracks appeared in the upper joint and one in the barrel. I was only playing it 10- 15minutes a day. I thought that this horn was made of wood more from the center of the tree - and therefore more dense - and a bit older. Any thoughts out there??? BTW - the company I purchased it from has agreed to take it back and send me another. I just hope this one sounds as good as the one I bought.
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Author: Fred
Date: 2001-09-13 01:24
My sympathy to you.
Have you considered switching to a Greenline since they are in the swapping out mood?
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-09-13 02:20
Lorie wrote:
>
> BTW - the company
> I purchased it from has agreed to take it back and send me
> another.
The <b>have</b> to either repair or replace it - it's guaranteed for a year not to crack.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-09-13 03:21
Yes, as Mark said, they have to replace it for you. I understand how you feel about hoping it will sound as good. All I can say is, if it doesn't--send it back and ask them to swap again.
BTW, I love my greenline R-13. You might like one.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-09-13 03:53
If your Dealer is authorized Buffet they can get enough of Vintage horns for you to "audition". (Lisa Argerich went to Libertyville to select for my trial, now Buffet is in CA). Insist on a representative selection. Get your dealer to ask Buffet for some help (on shipping costs). mw
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Author: Lorie
Date: 2001-09-13 10:25
I'll keep you guys posted on how this goes. I had a student who bought a regular wood R13 that cracked in both the upper and lower joints within a month of purchase. I went with him to get another horn, and it came down to a Festival and a Greenline R13. After playing both in a blind test, the Greenline actually sounded the best and had, by far, the best intonation. Mind you, we had to go through about eight until we found this one - but it is a realy beauty! I never thought that I would find a Greeline that I really liked (narrow-minded though I am). I may end up with a Greenline, too. Who knows...
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Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2001-09-13 18:21
Gee, all these cracks in new wood clarinets ---- another argument for playing old wood clarinets that have gone for many years without cracking?
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Author: Robert Small
Date: 2001-09-13 19:11
Is it my imagination or are almost all the stories about cracking clarinets talking about Buffets? A respected repairman I know told me that Buffet kiln dries their wood while Selmer, Leblanc, and some other makers let it age and dry naturally over several years, and therefore Buffet clarinets are more prone to cracking than some other brands. If I were in the market for a new clarinet today I would probably look at the greenline. Or maybe a good used instrument about five or six years old. I believe most cracking occurs within the first year or two.
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Author: Lorie
Date: 2001-09-13 23:22
In a graduate level class I took last Spring, the instructor told us about a fire at a storage facility in Germany where most of the clarinet makers had stored their African blackwood and grenadilla to age. Once that supply was gone, the new horns were made with new, green wood...and it is cracking. Supposedly the Vintages, Festivals, and Prestiges are made from older wood from the center of the trees - but who knows. I know that it is difficult to get the wood out of Africa these days.
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Author: mercedes
Date: 2001-09-14 06:51
I have a Buffet Crampon Clarinet made in Paris at around 1934, I've played it since 1990 and It has never cracked, has an incredibly beautiful tone and was obviously made with great care from very good grenadilla wood.
This store that your husband got the clarinet from must've not stored it well or they probably bought it from someone that din't take care of it. Or maybe the German
models were made with green wood.
Check out the Buffet Crampon web page.
My question is, how much is my clarinet worth? Any ideas?
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2001-09-14 08:20
I wondered there might be a huge climate difference between New Orleans, where the instrument had been climatized, and where you brought it back.
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Author: Dee
Date: 2001-09-14 10:55
mercedes wrote:
>
> ... This store that your husband got the clarinet from must've not
> stored it well or they probably bought it from someone that
> din't take care of it. Or maybe the German
> models were made with green wood.
Not necessarily so. There will always be a certain percentage that crack even if the wood is perfectly cured, stored and handled in manufacturing and even if subsequently stored and maintained properly. At this time there is no way to look for the hidden flaws or weaknesses in wood.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2001-09-14 16:07
Do you blow 98 degree hot air into a cold clarinet to warm it up before playing it? Or was the instrument quite cold when you played it, causing the interior to try to expand while the exterior was still cold? Just wondering how important it is to warm up the exterior of a wood instrument before playing it. Good luck!
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Author: Dee
Date: 2001-09-14 16:33
Wes wrote:
>
> Do you blow 98 degree hot air into a cold clarinet to
> warm it up before playing it? Or was the instrument quite
> cold when you played it, causing the interior to try to expand
> while the exterior was still cold? Just wondering how
> important it is to warm up the exterior of a wood instrument
> before playing it. Good luck!
Some time ago now, I ran the calculations of the max possible thermal stress induced by playing a cold clarinet. It is well below the strength of the wood even using the weakest direction of the wood (since wood has grain, it is unequal in the different directions) unless there is a flaw in the wood to start with. If there is an inherent flaw then nothing will prevent it from cracking sooner or later.
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Author: Peter
Date: 2001-09-15 03:26
I have never heard of so many cracked clarinets, and certainly of so many cracked Buffets, but I can tell you this:
Francois Klock, Buffet-Crampon's woodwinds manager is a truly great person to deal with and customer service minded to a fault!
I have never had a clarinet crack, although I recently sent a German, grenadilla "F. Arthur" "A" clarinet to be overhauled, and Raymond Lim, one of the best repairmen I know of (who works for Sam Ash Stores in Miami Lakes, Florida,) found a crack in the (irreplaceable) barrel. He was able to fix it, but I am looking for another original barrel for it.
I have serious reservations about the German Buffet clarinets. I really don't think they are of the same quality or in the same class as the Paris ones.
I don't know if this is true, but I understand they are made in Germany by Evette, which owned Buffet-Crampon before Boosey and Hawkes bought it, and (Evette) was considered a quality brand. In fact, I seem to remember that Buffet-Crampon had been considered Evette's "lesser" brand, which is difficult for me to visualize, judging from Buffet's extremely excellent quality since I have known of them.
I don't know if it would be proper to publish his contact information in a public medium as this, and even so, I may be over-extending my boundaries here, but if you have a problem with anything Buffet-Crampon that you have not been able to resolve with your retailer, please contact me at ppscs@bellsouth.net and I will contact Mr. Klock with your e-mail address and try to put you in direct contact with him.
A couple of people above this tout the merits of purchasing clarinets several years old. I am a great believer in this. Most of my clarinets are more than just "several years old." I find the quality of the wood they make clarinets out of today to be vastly inferior to that used many years ago.
Never mind weigh it, you can hold a fifty-+-year-old (or older) clarinet in one hand and a "newer" one in the other and literaly feel the difference in the density of the wood.
There are those of us who know that if you really pay attention you can, both, feel and sense a lightweight, porous, thin quality to today's instruments that was not there in the not so recent past.
I hear corporate music people say that today's woods are better for whatever inbred properties are inherent in the newer trees planted for the purpose. The fact of the matter is that the real quality wood of the original large trees (which were at least, hundreds of years old,) is gone and what they have planted to replace them lacks the proper density, never mind the girth necessary to make the heart wood the same quality as the old, naturally grown trees.
The newer wood is more cost effective, but that does not necessarily make a better clarinet. Most often it does exactly the opposite, it makes for what I call a "toss-up clarinet." Maybe it will be good, very possibly not.
How many will be returned? Very likely very many less than should be returned. The fact of often having to deal with either a mail-order outfit or a far-away retailer makes it more difficult to return one than if you had purchased it at your local music shop, and a surprising number of people let minor flaws slide, rather than go to the trouble of returning an instrument. They (whoever "they" may be,) often count on this factor!
At any rate, whether it is a good instrument or not will ultimately be decided by the individual purchasing it, who may or may not be qualified to tell one way or another.
Good luck with your instrument.
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Author: Jim
Date: 2001-09-15 04:47
To scientifically compare the density of 2 clarinets, one would need to know the difference in the weight of the keywork (both the alloys used and the shape of the castings would make a difference) as well as the wall thickness, and the moisture content of the wood of each horn.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-09-15 09:50
I just done a pinning of 15 cm cracks on both sides of a rather new Selmer bass clarinet.
Rumour has it here that of 7 recently imported top pro make of oboe (forgotten the name) 5 split.
Are bagpipes having a splitting epidemic too?
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Author: donald nicholls
Date: 2001-09-15 13:38
well, it's said that "if it's going to crack, there isn't much you can do to stop it" but on the other hand..... my A clarinet only cracked (after about 10 years of full time use) after i played it outside in a very cold wind (orchestra pops gig).... my old Buffet B flat cracked only after i allowed it to get really really freezing cold ("my bad").... and i know as a FACT that the Bass clarinet that Gordon just described fixing (big cracks) was left in a freezing cold room in the middle of winter for a couple of weeks (without being played) then moved into a warm room next to a gas heater (the player, who doesn't own the instrument by the way, won't admit to this). So it's the cold huh? Another thing i've heard mentioned is that not playing an instrument for a few days ENCOURAGES the crack that is waiting to happen. Or how about this theory... over-oiling can cause a layer of dirt in the bore that causes oil/moisture to be unevenly absorbed into the wood....
.... and if you want to buy a clarinet with old wood, try Jochen Seggelke- he can make one for you with wood that has been aged for 50 years!!!!!!!
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Author: Lorie
Date: 2001-09-15 17:06
Ya know - that thing about the temperature and humidity differences may ring true. I am in North Carolina and our area is humid, but not nearly as much as New Orleans. The horn came originally from Woodwind and Brasswind - which I think is in Indiana... So Indiana to New Orleans (in and out of the heat and humidity and air conditioning between the Embassy Suites and the Hilton Convention site). That's a lot of temperature and humidity change. Then an airline flight to North Carolina. I know about never playing a "cold" horn. And I was good about playing the horn every day for 10 - 15minutes at a time. The first crack was apparent in the second week - and it was at the very top of the top joint. And it was WIDE. I just hope that the replacement horn (not horns) they are sending are as good as this horn I am sending back. What a beautiful, sweet sound and such a fabulous feel. Oh, well. I guess I will just have to hope for the best.
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Author: Daniel
Date: 2001-09-16 05:42
I was reading the Boosey & Hawkes warranty on cracks. What i don't get is this:
Schreiber bassoons have a 10 year warranty against wood decay and cracking.
*Student* level oboes have a 10 year warranty against cracks.
Greenline instruments have a 3 year waranty against cracking/breakage.
Plastic clarinets have a 5 year warranty against breakage.
Yet all other wood instruments (meaning all solid wood clarinets, and intermediate/professional oboes) have only a one year warranty.
Why don't ALL wood instruments get the same length warranty? I can perhaps understand bassoons getting longer coverage, because they're made from maple and have a tendancy to rot. But why do student oboes get a 10 year warranty? And why do all wood clarinets (except Greelines) only get one year? If the Greenline is supposed to be so much more resistant to cracking, then why do they give them longer coverage over instruments that are solid grenadilla?
I've never had any problems personally with cracking. But i'm trying out three very nice Vintages, and knowing many people who have had problems with newer horns makes me a bit weary.
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Author: Terry Horlick
Date: 2001-09-16 07:55
>Never mind weigh it, you can hold a fifty-+-year-old (or older) clarinet in one hand and a "newer" one in the other and literaly feel the difference in the density of the wood.
Differences in weight could also be due to differences in bore size, wall thickness, and key alloy as well as density differences.
What is the thought about those fuzzy "Pad savers"? Are they holding moisture against the bore for long periods of time? Should they be avoided?
I have been playing old Buffets for a while (a 1954 or so R-13 and now a 1925 FB Buffet Crampon). The 1925 horn has a short and thin bell with a crack in it... who knows how long it's been there, but the bodies of neither clarinet have cracked and I don't expect them to. I also have a 1969 Evette Master wich I bought new... again no cracks. I now look for old clarinets if I need one. If you must buy new, the Greenline is tempting. On the other hand do LeBlancs, Selmers or other brand soprano clarinets have this problem?
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-09-16 10:48
Donald: HI! Fancy meeting yhou here. Interesting information. If a certain person knew about that he would not have cooperated with the repair expense - always looking for an 'out'.
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Author: Dee
Date: 2001-09-16 12:42
Daniel wrote:
>
> ... Why don't ALL wood instruments get the same length warranty? I
> can perhaps understand bassoons getting longer coverage,
> because they're made from maple and have a tendancy to rot.
> But why do student oboes get a 10 year warranty? And why do all
> wood clarinets (except Greelines) only get one year? If the
> Greenline is supposed to be so much more resistant to cracking,
> then why do they give them longer coverage over instruments
> that are solid grenadilla?
Actually manufacturers will normally put the longest warranties on the items *LEAST* likely to fail. Those most likely to fail will get the shortest warranties that the customer will tolerate so that the makers can limit their financial risk.
If they could sell without warranties, they would. But customers demand some type of warranty or they will buy from someone who does offer it and generally the laws require some type of warranty these days.
What puzzles me is why the bassoon has such a long warranty.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-09-16 14:37
AND ... then you have Curtis Mathes. mw
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Author: Peter
Date: 2001-09-17 02:28
Hey Jim: You are absolutely correct about the "scientific comparison" of the wood of two clarinets, but once you have been around a few clarinets and paid attention, you can tell the difference just by the feel of the wood. Most especially if the clarinets are the same make and model.
In good, old, aged grenadilla, like they used even up to 40 years ago (and back,) there is a heavy, solid feel to it that tells the whole story. Try it sometime. If you haven't already, you might be surprised at the difference, if you have, then you should know the difference!
Gordon: You've been busted! I hope Donald isn't supposed to be a friend, and/or the clarinet's owner did not read that!
Hey Lori: As I said before, under circumstances other than carelessness, its all in the quality of the wood.
You'd be surprised how many people don't notice a split (especially if it's a small one) inside their instrument. I'll bet you a dollar to a doughnut that for every instrument returned, there should be several more accompanying it, but aren't, due either to the flaws not having been noticed, the instrument's owner figuring they are at fault, or that it's too much trouble to return it.
If you carried your instrument around New Orleans, but kept it in its closed case during the changes in temperature, that should not have affected the instrument to the point of causing cracks, as the natural insulating qualities of most instrument cases will generally offset the time it takes an instrument inside it to reach an average ambient temperature. Unless it is a really drastic change, like going from 80° to -40° at a whack! Or vice-versa.
That's one reason cheap cases are expensive and good cases are very expensive!
And if you carried your instrument in the passenger cabin of the airplane, that should also not have affected the instrument negatively. However, if you did not, or when the instrument was shipped to you in New Orleans, if it traveled in the cargo compartment of an large airliner, that could have helped.
Airliners fly at 30,000+ feet altitude and the cargo compartments are neither heated nor pressurized. Anything spending any amount of time at those altitudes and under those conditions is subject to freezing temperatures, then quick "defrosting" upon reaching someplace like New Orleans, especially in the summer.
Unless you are in a real rush to get a wooden instrument in your hands, you are better off requesting Fed-X ground shipping. I ship and receive items daily, and while they can be a few pennies more expensive, it has been my experience that they are also much more reliable (time-wise) and careful of your package than anyone else I know of.
I have always tried to think of my instruments, but have never taken exceptionally good care of them, and thank God for small favors, I have never had a crack in one, except for the one I previously described in my "A" clarinet barrel, which happened just recently.
Over time, I have bought several good, vintage clarinets at diverse NC flea markets (of all places!) and have never had a problem with one being or becoming cracked from the humidity up there, or travel back to where I now live in South Florida (aka: Humidityville, USA.)
Terry: You are also correct in the thing about wall thickness, etc. That is another way manufacturers are cheapening the product: By manufacturing their instruments using less wood. I know you did not mean it in that respect, but you did bring it to mind.
As much as I like Leblanc products (we own three Leblanc clarinets and various accessories) try holding a 50 year old Normandy 4 in one hand and a new one in the other, then write back to me again!
As to the "pad savers," depending on how long I have played the instrument, I first dry it with one or two cotton or silk pull-throughs, gently pulling each through the bore two to three times. Then I put in a "pad-saver" and leave it in place for about 1/2 an hour, to an hour or so.
I never put a wooden instrument away with the "pad-saver" in place. If you really want to save your pads, use pad papers and gently dry them after each and every use. It's not gadgets, but good maintenance habits that save you trouble and repairs.
In 1969 they were still manufacturing to older standards, so it's not surprising the Evette was good for you.
My son Daniel is a second year clarinet student and in his first year of saxophone. Having done guitar, bass and piano, he is already planning on flute being next. He now plays piano for jazz band, and clarinet for wind ensamble and marching band.
From the begining, I made him treat his Selmer 1400 as if it was a good, wood instrument. In all things except oiling the bore, of course.
This induced him to develop good habits in taking care of a forthcoming, better quality, but more maintenance intensive instrument. Had he been allowed to become slack from the begining, with a relatively care-free plastic instrument, the bad habits would have carried over to the wood instruments and, undoubtedly, caused their early demise.
Today he has two wood clarinets (a Noblet and a Sterling) and two plastic ones (a Selmer 1400 and a Buffet-Crampon.)
The wood ones he uses to practice at home and for the school's indoor concerts, etc. The Selmer 1400 stays at school all the time and has been weatherized with synthetic pads and corks, so he can use it outdoors, even under the rain.
The Buffet he plays regularly in wind ensemble and sometimes carries it to and from school.
My own carry-around preference is a Selmer 1401 that I sometimes sit on top of Grandfather mountain or Wiseman's View (there you go Lori) and play.
And the moral of this story is that my other seven clarinets don't go outside of climate control unless it is important for them to do so. They are too expensive and nobody is going to pay for them but me!
Enjoy.
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Author: David Dow symphony Nb
Date: 2002-04-25 11:06
There is nothing wrong with a clarinet that cracks if it plays nicely and you are happy with its qualities then have it repaired. The next instrument that doesn't crack maybe may not have the playing chacteristics of the one you own, and could become a total let down. This is more often the case then not...beware of snap judgements....
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Author: David Dow symphony Nb
Date: 2002-04-25 11:10
My two Bb clarinets , a Selmer Recital has one crack that was repaired(less than an inch) and my A which is old as the hills has never cracked. In Canada the weather is so wild that clarinet players here consider it the norm.
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