 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: OmniClarinet314
Date: 2024-10-20 05:12
Do any of you have experience judging at TMEA (Texas) All-Area auditions and know whether or not tone quality matters for Bb clarinet? I heard from someone that it doesn't and I want to know if he was speaking nonsense or not.
This was what he said: "the judges will not take off points simply for having a less than professional instrument. That would be discrimination and lead to a huge scandal. IIRC they are actually told to not choose simply based on tone quality and rather to give points for other things for this reason. I’m not saying that there aren’t some judges out there who don’t follow these rules, but 90% of the time what they care about is technique and how you can balance your tone and work with what you have. "
Is this true? Someone with a worse tone quality can beat someone with a much better tone quality? I think he actually misunderstood what he was told.
Post Edited (2024-10-20 06:17)
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-10-20 12:14
Bare in mind that the judges are there to select players not instruments and they're going to be damn good at determining where the shortcomings of one ends and the other begins...... That IS their job!... Nobody's going to fool them into believing they're good just because they ( or better said their parents) can afford a professional instrument. The instrument does NOT make the musician. The judges are looking for people with promise in hitting home runs..... it's the swing and the accuracy.... not the bat.
If you want to worry about anything.... worry and work on your pitch.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2024-10-20 18:44
Tone matters...everywhere, for everything, every time. (As does rhythm, tonguing, technical abilities, etc.
This part, "...the judges will not take off points simply for having a less than professional instrument. That would be discrimination and lead to a huge scandal..." seems a bit of a non-sequitur per the title of the post.
I also see where the statement "...they are actually told to not choose simply based on tone quality..." makes sense. It would be silly to judge based solely on tone quality.
If two people were close on everything, but one had worse tone than the other - yes, it could be a deciding factor. As could technical ability or any other factors - so yes, if a person had great tone on a long note G, but was deficient compared to the other folks in other areas - Yes, a person with better tone might find themselves lower-placed than a person with worse tone. The judges are looking at a "whole package" by comparing certain pieces of that package.
(And what Julian said.)
Preparation conquers all these fears. My best advice is to simply be confident and honest about your own abilities, don't be out to impress...be out to show an honest representation of who you are (musically).
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: pewd
Date: 2024-10-20 20:07
I've judged Texas all-region auditions many times.
Tone quality is VERY important. As is not missing any notes or rhythms. And playing the etudes within the specified tempo ranges.
Remember, the judges can not see you - we don't know what type of clarinet/reed/mouthpiece you have. We don't know what the student looks like. We can only judge based upon what our ears tell us. What type of clarinet you have isn't so important - you can sound great on student model instruments if you work hard.
Students with poor tone quality do not do well at the auditions.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2024-10-20 22:08
I don't see a huge difference in tone between my R13 and my Selmer plastic one....It's much more about the player. As far as tone goes, you also have different mouthpieces and reeds, some people even say ligatures.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
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Author: OmniClarinet314
Date: 2024-10-20 22:53
"I've judged Texas all-region auditions many times.
Tone quality is VERY important. As is not missing any notes or rhythms. And playing the etudes within the specified tempo ranges.
Remember, the judges can not see you - we don't know what type of clarinet/reed/mouthpiece you have. We don't know what the student looks like. We can only judge based upon what our ears tell us. What type of clarinet you have isn't so important - you can sound great on student model instruments if you work hard.
Students with poor tone quality do not do well at the auditions.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas"
I don't think I've seen anyone make TMEA All-State on a student model clarinet. All-Staters use an R13 or better.
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Author: OmniClarinet314
Date: 2024-10-20 22:59
"I don't see a huge difference in tone between my R13 and my Selmer plastic one....It's much more about the player. As far as tone goes, you also have different mouthpieces and reeds, some people even say ligatures."
It's probably 10-20 clarinet/90-80 player, but I would have been a lot more confident in my playing if I had an R13. I sounded a lot better on my R13 than on my $1k high school clarinet. I'd hate thinking it was me and not the clarinet. It wouldn't do good for my ego when I was working really hard to improve. Good thing it isn't true.
Post Edited (2024-10-20 23:03)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2024-10-21 00:02
I'm confused. Your profile says you've posted 30 times, so I searched for the ones previous to these four. The first of your posts that appears in a search for OmniClarinet314 posted in November of 2017, 7 years ago. You were more concerned then about reeds and fuzzy throat tones, etc., but you mention All-Area groups and TMEA district and all-state groups.
(1) Why are you still worrying about TMEA auditions? Are these high school groups? Were you auditioning for them in 6th grade? Or is your concern with TMEA more recent than 2017?
(2) Why, even if you began auditioning for TMEA in 2017 as a 6th grader, haven't you worked out an answer about tone quality that you're happy or at least satisfied with?
The answers are essentially:
- Tone is an important quality but not the only one on which students are judged.
- It is possible to produce a very acceptable - controlled and in-tune - tone on a student level clarinet. Ask any professional player to demonstrate.
- Judging at these events cannot be based on the instrument a student is playing if (as they seem to be from other comments here) they're blind auditions.
Additionally:
- Lots of high school players sound god-awful even on R-13s better. You don't meet them at the festivals if they didn't make it into the group.
- At any given festival there are kids who have auditioned successfully on "student" clarinets. Unless you check every instrument at the festival you may not find them, but they're there.
Karl
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Author: OmniClarinet314
Date: 2024-10-21 00:20
Because I was a bit confused when someone on YouTube said that tone quality doesn't matter a lot for TMEA All-State. It sounded really absurd. I needed confirmation.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2024-10-21 00:31
People on YouTube say lots of things, ranging from expert through uninformed and silly to dangerous.
I edited my post - you may want to re-read it. Are you now in high school? Are you graduating in 2025? What has *your* experience been with TMEA audition results?
Karl
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Author: Chetclar
Date: 2024-10-21 19:40
I have had the great pleasure of teaching young clarinetists and judging TMEA clarinet auditions in Texas for 50 years. I have had over the years , 150 plus clarinet students have an absolutely awesome musical experience in orchestras and concert bands there. They have competed on Buffet, Selmer, Yamaha and other clarinets , some mid range and some professional level. I can frankly say that beauty of sound certainly is a major factor at these auditions and that a beautiful clarinet sound can be produced with competent fundamentals and preparation on any clarinet that is in good adjustment. My most recent four year 6 A clarinetist played a Yamaha 72 model made in 1982. On the subject of judging, I rarely have has issues with the high quality and honesty of judges at the region, area and state level.
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Author: OmniClarinet314
Date: 2024-10-21 22:59
I've never heard of Yamaha 72. What is the model?
I also heard you buy R13s for your students. Why that particular model if any clarinet works?
Post Edited (2024-10-22 02:32)
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2024-10-21 23:20
I'm MANY years past auditioning for honor groups, but I'm still interested in the topic, primarily as a teacher. I don't see why giving the original poster the 3rd degree was necessary or appropriate.
Yes, one can sound great on a lesser instrument, but having had significant experience playing well on nicer (pro level) instruments is always very helpful in being able to make that happen. A race car driver will (I assume) be able to get more out of a Toyota Camry in a car chase than someone that has only driven Camrys.
Mouthpiece and reeds will make as much or more of a difference, and if you can't play well to begin with a higher grade instrument will not solve that.
Focus on what you can control. Great rhythm and great pitch will always get you further than beautiful tone alone.
Anders
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Author: OmniClarinet314
Date: 2024-10-22 23:07
Ugh. I wasn't aware how good an E11 really was. I was focused on getting an R13. My high school clarinet was $400 cheaper but didn't do me justice. I'm not going to blame myself for anything.
Post Edited (2024-10-23 02:31)
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Author: Ed
Date: 2024-10-23 03:20
To be honest, I have heard players on very humble set ups like a Fobes Debut on a Yamaha student clarinet who sounded FAR better than on some playing very expensive instruments. It is not about the equipment. As the saying goes, it is not the arrow, it is the archer.
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Author: OmniClarinet314
Date: 2024-10-23 03:57
I'd say it's both the player and the instrument. You wouldn't see Martin Frost performing with a student clarinet. Those people with student clarinets would most likely sound a lot better on an R13.
Post Edited (2024-10-23 04:04)
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2024-10-23 04:20
"You wouldn't see Martin Frost performing with a student clarinet."
True, but not a very supportive example. Martin Frost is not a TMEA All-State player. His standards are above those being judged there. - plus, he'd still sound world-class playing a student clarinet.
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Author: OmniClarinet314
Date: 2024-10-23 04:27
I don't think your claim of Martin Frost still sounding world-class on a student clarinet is well-supported. I'd love to see proof of this.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2024-10-23 07:00
OmniClarinet314 wrote:
> I don't think your claim of Martin Frost still sounding
> world-class on a student clarinet is well-supported. I'd love
> to see proof of this.
He wouldn't need to sound "world-class." The important point is that Frost (or pretty much any pro), given a decent mouthpiece and reed, could play on any mechanically sound clarinet at a higher level than the high school students auditioning at TMEA.
Unless one of them happens to be in the teen-aged Julian Bliss or (going back farther) Stanley Drucker image. ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
Karl
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Author: symphony1010
Date: 2024-10-23 18:38
Very funny thread! Brightened up my afternoon!
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Author: Chetclar
Date: 2024-10-23 18:51
I do buy R13 clarinets, Yamaha clarinets and Selmer clarinets for my students. The main goal is to provide them with excellent quality instruments at an affordable price. The Yamaha 72 Custom clarinet was a professional level instrument imported to the US starting around 1990. Frankly, the model of clarinet my students play is not the main factor in their audition success.
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2024-10-23 21:30
I have no evidence re Frost playing different levels of clarinet, only opinion. More specifically, I'll jump out on a limb and claim that if you gave Frost a decent E11 that's been set up and regulated by a good tech, and let him decide on mpc and auxiliary gear, and let him practice with it for a while, then most listeners, including pros, even if they could detect a difference in his tone, would still rank his playing as great.
Frost himself would notice more about the difference than anyone else, probably a different feel to his sound production, the feel of the keys, and a small but annoying-to-him loss of control, but his speed, accuracy, articulation, breath control, musicality and dance moves would be mostly unaffected. Would Frost be happy with the E11 instead of his regular instrument? No, but that's a different question.
Evidence from other instruments appears on YT, where for example inexpensive violins are compared with million-dollar instruments, both played by professionals, and those are interesting to explore. There are undeniable differences, but listeners often can't hear them.
Then there's the example of concert pianists, who usually have to perform on whatever instrument they're given when they arrive at a concert venue. As a rule, they get to play it before concert time, but there are exceptions - Richter refused to, simply assuming it would be bad. There are many live recordings of famous pianists performing on crappy or badly tuned pianos, but the great ones still sound unmistakably great.
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Author: OmniClarinet314
Date: 2024-10-23 23:10
Whats so funny? What a useless comment.
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Author: OmniClarinet314
Date: 2024-10-24 01:18
"I do buy R13 clarinets, Yamaha clarinets and Selmer clarinets for my students. The main goal is to provide them with excellent quality instruments at an affordable price. The Yamaha 72 Custom clarinet was a professional level instrument imported to the US starting around 1990. Frankly, the model of clarinet my students play is not the main factor in their audition success."
In my case, it was.
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Author: OmniClarinet314
Date: 2024-10-24 01:35
I heard from earspasm that it plays like a $4k clarinet and so it's underpriced.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2024-10-24 01:39
Well, Michael _DOES_ sell them, so I'm sure it's without hyperbole ... but in any case I think they're a good sounding instrument.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2024-10-24 01:51
My point is not his words, but purely using your ears. I don't think anyone would listen and think that it sounded like anything other than Mike Lowenstern. He could easily go play a concert on it and nobody would question it
I also think that Mike is a guy with a lot of integrity and he would not sell a product that he does not believe it.
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2024-10-24 03:12
Haha! I couldn't decide whether I should laugh or cry, Symphony1010!
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: lmliberson
Date: 2024-10-24 03:24
"Whats so funny? What a useless comment."
More like a useless thread...
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Author: OmniClarinet314
Date: 2024-10-24 03:32
Then don't read it. I really don't understand what a Detroit player is doing on a thread for Texas All-State.
Post Edited (2024-10-24 04:28)
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Author: Ed
Date: 2024-10-24 05:10
Post Edited (2024-10-24 06:29)
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Author: OmniClarinet314
Date: 2024-10-24 05:26
More like all of you are useless.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2024-10-24 05:56
I don't know what you expected. People tried to answer you honestly and with respect.
Thread closed
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