 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: m1964
Date: 2023-11-19 09:17
Can anyone advise on how to bend this #%&$.. spring to get the right feel and tension?
Any time I need to replace this spring, I just cannot get it "right". It's either too weak or too stiff, and also have a sluggish feel, even if stiff.
Someone suggested to bend it more down than to the side- I tried it but it did not work...
Is there anything else I can try?
Thanks.
P.S.
Ohh, why do they have to be needle springs, not just springs without a needle at the end?
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2023-11-19 10:15
Do you mean on Buffet or other clarinets where the spring is mounted on the key with the end sitting in a channel in the clarinet body?
If not, then it depends on what clarinet and the specifics specs of the spring, it might not be different from other springs.
First, a lot depends on the length of the spring compared with its diameter. The shorter it is, the more you will feel a change in tension/resistance along the travel. This spring on Buffet clarinets is not terrible but slightly on the short side, so there is a small amount of this effect.
One way to improve this - in theory - is to use the thinnest spring that still allows a good feel (i.e. is not too thin/weak). In theory because for this spring on Buffets, usually even one size smaller diameter than the standard size is too thin.
Notice if it is really "too weak" or "too stiff", or it is actually the problem I just mentioned. The latter can feel like it's "right" or maybe "too weak" at the very beginning of the key travel (when you just open the key) and then "too stiff" (or at least significantly stiffer) the more you open it. In that case it is that change in tension during the travel that is the problem. That's when you often try to to make it stiffer, so it might feel good immediately, then it's too resistant later in its travel.
The first thing to notice is that, to adjust this you also remove the F/C key, which also acts as a stop for the F#/C# key, which means you might be opening it more than it would. The restricted travel shows the real difference might not be as bad as it can seem when testing just the F#/C# key by itself. On the other hand, the F/C moves with it and adds to its resistance somewhat when not moving from F/C to F#/C#.
A way to significantly improve it is to modify the key and spring. Basically change it to a regular spring mounted on the post, with a cradle on the key. Some clarinets are that way originally.
For some clarinets, in particular Buffet clarinets, in order to do this it would take some modification to the key hinge rod itself. I've done this before, I remember Chris P mentioned he does this often, but locally in almost all cases players don't want to have this done. They don't like the modification to the instrument in spite of it improving the feel of the key (a sort of mental resistance and a misconception that the design from the factory shouldn't be "disturbed").
This would solve the two issues of the spring length for its diameter and the lesser but potential problem coming from the end sliding in the wood channel.
>> Ohh, why do they have to be needle springs, not just springs without a needle at the end? <<
Several reasons.
One is just tradition. Springs were/are essentially needles with a different temper. I guess they still have a process that makes them that way and it makes sense to continue.
There are real advantages to this too. It creates less friction between the spring and the cradles and allow smaller cradles in tight spaces. This is not relevant in all cases but sometimes it is to the point of being noticeable.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2023-11-19 10:45
Clarnibass,
Thanks for your quick reply.
Yes, it is a R13.
When installing the spring, I bent it in a wrong way, so I removed it and 2nd time used the remaining piece which does not have the needle end.
I am going to remove it and install a spring that is slightly thinner, with the needle end.
However, how do I bend the spring ? At the base or gradually? In what direction?
If I am not mistaken Buffet has it bent at about 45 degrees between down and towards the key cap, gradually.
Thank you
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-11-19 18:36
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If it's a Buffet, then you're best modifying the F#/C# spring and mounting it in the pillar in the normal manner as well as fitting a much better (heavier) gauge and longer needle spring to make the action far better.
See attachments of how you can improve things - I do this as standard on all Buffets I service or overhaul (as well as reinforcing the nylon pins in the LH levers). Only problem now is Buffet are springing the F#/C# key on ALL their clarinets from the entry level Prodige through to their top level model, whatever it's called (although they spring the F#/C# key on their alto, bass and basset horns in the normal manner).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-11-19 18:43
Attachment: reinforcednylonpins.jpg (208k)
And reinforce the nylon pins in the LH levers while you're at it.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2023-11-19 19:09
Hello Chris,
Thanks a lot for trying to help.
I remember your post from years ago, with pictures of the modified post, key and slot in the body.
I am not a repair tech. I fix clarinets occasionally for my band mates. I am not charging them for the labor, just for the cost of materials. During this past year, I fixed two clarinets that sustained water damage. On both, replacing this spring did not produce the result I wanted because the key was/is a little too stiff and feels sluggish.
Whenever I tried to replace this key, I get the resistance that is either too weak, too strong and the movement feels sluggish, with the resistance rising when pressing the key further.
This R13 I bought to have a nice back-up and for playing outdoors. The original owner bought it in 1977 and played through high school and college and put it away, so the clarinet is in a very good shape. I accidentally broke the spring trying to clean up tarnish.
On the advise from Clarnibass, I am going to try another, slightly thinner spring.
Just not sure how to bend it- more down than to the side or more to the side then down?
Make a bent at the base or make a gradual bent?
Somehow, on new Buffets, this key moves smoothly, and the resistance does not increase at the end-range of movement.
Please, let me know how you would fix it if you could not do the repair you normally do.
Thank you
Post Edited (2023-11-19 22:18)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-11-20 02:11
I can do this modification in my sleep, so I routinely opt for doing that rather than mucking about trying other ways to get Buffet's springing to work well as it's not an easy spring to balance, being too short and too light gauge for its purpose as well as the tip of the spring digging into the wood (or plastic on their Prodige models) which creates friction.
You could try lining the side of the spring slot with a piece of flat spring for a better bearing surface for the needle spring to run against, but you don't want to drop down a gauge or two with the needle spring as that'll just cause the key to bounce as it's carrying the dead weight of the LH F#/C# lever.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2023-11-20 09:05
To Clarnibass:
Thanks a lot for your suggestion- the lighter gauge spring worked better!
I bent it at the base down slightly, and then gradually to the side.
Now, the key moves with even pressure, without significant increase in tension towards the end-range.
However, as Chris said, it was difficult to achieve good balance- at first, I made it too stiff. Then, after trying to make the tension lighter, it became too light so the key does not hold the air pressure much (but holds vacuum).
I left it there and will play tomorrow to see if that's a problem.
Again, thanks a lot for your help!
P.S.
Still, "my spring" does not produce the same movement quality as the spring on my newer Buffet...
Post Edited (2023-11-20 09:09)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2023-11-23 14:41
I assume you used a spring one size smaller which generally means 0.05mm larger/smaller (except some larger sizes), though this can vary depending on the source, sizing (metric/inch), etc.
Then there's the inconsistency in tolerance e.g. a nominal 0.7mm spring is 0.68mm and a nominal 0.75mm spring is 0.76mm, so the difference ends up more than you'd think... just slightly. This is not enough to make a significant difference, but it sometimes (though not often) can make a small difference.
As far as bending, it is basically in the same direction (or the exact opposite) that it is trying to push the key. Having the spring bent also to another direction won't necessarily cause any problems and it can create different direction of friction, which is helpful sometimes (probably makes no difference in this case, unless done to an extreme).
There were some arguments on repair forums whether curving the spring would be different than just a kink (to take the two extremes) even if the end is at exactly the same place... not getting into that here.
You can't really compare the feel with a new clarinet. There are many things that can affect this, like the exact shape of the key, height of the hinge, weight of each area of the key, exact length of the spring, the spring itself, etc.
Another thing about the needle tip, it's particularly important for this spring. If you use a cut end it will most likely dig into the wood and create friction (same as A key flat springs). Make sure the spring doesn't touch at the sharp point.
A thinner spring reduces the length to diameter ratio, but if there's a still a problem with the thinnest spring that works well then only modifying it for a longer spring would completely solve it. How much of a problem there really is depends on specific case and how annoying it is depends on the person who is playing the instrument.
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Author: donald
Date: 2023-11-23 17:41
m1964 - check that the pad doesn't "bounce". If the spring is too light then you can get a "bounce" when releasing the F#/C# key in a fast passage.
to test- play F#/C# with both the left and right hand fingers (L on # key, R on the F/C key), lift the left finger off the F#/C# key quickly- as you would in a fast chromatic passage.... listen to hear if the pad has a little double take after it contacts the tonehole
I find it annoying if this spring is too hard, but I find this bounce in the key YET EVEN MORE ANNOYING
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Author: DNBoone
Date: 2023-11-24 06:25
@Chris_P
that's a sweet modification. I'll keep that in my back pocket although I haven't had any major issues with that key.
The nylon pins: Did you just run a thick needle spring through them?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-11-24 23:14
I mount them in my bench chuck, then centre drill them and then drill all the way through with a 0.9mm diameter drill.
Then refit them in the ends of the LH levers (they don't need to be glued in unless they're really loose) and push the appropriate gauge needle spring all the way in until it stops, then cut and grind the free ends flush with the heads of the nylon pins.
As I can do this in less than a minute for each one, I include it in the cost of a service or overhaul (as I also do when respringing the F#/C# key). And when replacing a broken nylon pin on a Buffet clarinet I've not previously worked on, I reinforce the replacement one and also the other existing ones to be sure none of them will break and I charge the standard minimum fee to do that.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2023-11-24 23:51
donald wrote:
"m1964 - check that the pad doesn't "bounce". If the spring is too light then you can get a "bounce" when releasing the F#/C# key in a fast passage.
to test- play F#/C# with both the left and right hand fingers (L on # key, R on the F/C key), lift the left finger off the F#/C# key quickly- as you would in a fast chromatic passage.... listen to hear if the pad has a little double take after it contacts the tonehole..."
Donald,
Thanks for the tip- the key does not bounce.
When I said it the spring became too light after my adjustment what I meant to say was that it opens easier when checking for leaks with air pressure.
Still, it does not have that "crisp" feel of an original spring on Buffets, even comparing it to my older one from 50s.
It is playable and I only feel the difference when comparing two different instruments.
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2023-12-12 13:55
Attachment: M3000_H-Cis-Mechanik.jpg (15k)
Concerning a bouncing F#/C#-key, a tech I once talked to claimed that to be an inherent design flaw of the whole F#/C#-mechanism. According to him it can only be avoided by a "fresh" and flexible enough pad absorbing the closing energy, but once it hardens over time, the bouncing inevitably sets in.
Don't know if he maybe was exaggerating a bit, but a bouncing F#/C# key has certainly been an issue also on my clarinets.
It can be made even more evident by the same method as described by Donald, but by snapping your finger off the l.h. F#/C#-key (while pressing down the r.h. F/C-key). That way even a short "drum roll" may be heard, while the F#/C#-pad bounces a few times back and forth against its tonehole, before closing (if in slightest doubt, compare it to e.g. a throat G#-key, snapping it off similarly - with just a most distinct "clack" sounding, no roll).
Even when a bouncing could be made evident only by such a "provocation", it may still be blurring fast enough passages while playing.
What has puzzled me personally is that while I've had my clarinets overhauled several times by their maker, only once afterwards there were absolutely no bouncing at all of this key. It only reappeared after the next overhaul (!), several years later. The key action felt as usual, so apparently not a stiffer spring involved. What magic did they that one time, which they couldn't replicate later - or was it just some kind of lucky accident, a particularly skilled and meticulous craftsman, or what?
At least this experience indicates that this bouncing can be dealt successfully with - but how? Does our techs here have some insight?
Maybe the only really foolproof solution is a completely different kind of F#/C#-mechanism, as in the attached picture (from Schwenk & Seggelke's site, I hope they don't mind some free publicity). Its actual purpose is to allow for a smoother transition between E/B and F#/C#, as well as for a clean trill between those notes (since the closing of the E/B-key will close also the F#/C#-key cup, even when its touch piece is still depressed - thus in a similar way as an articulated C#/G#-mechanism). But, as said, I think this mechanism is a solution also to the F#/C# bouncing problem (just by a similar key action as on other, inherently "bounce free" keys).
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Author: m1964
Date: 2023-12-14 18:06
Micke Isotalo wrote:
> Concerning a bouncing F#/C#-key, a tech I once talked to
> claimed that to be an inherent design flaw of the whole
> F#/C#-mechanism. According to him it can only be avoided by a
> "fresh" and flexible enough pad absorbing the closing energy,
> but once it hardens over time, the bouncing inevitably sets in.
> ...
> What has puzzled me personally is that while I've had my
> clarinets overhauled several times by their maker, only
> once afterwards there were absolutely no bouncing at all
> of this key. It only reappeared after the next overhaul
> (!), several years later. The key action felt as usual, so
> apparently not a stiffer spring involved. What magic did they
> that one time, which they couldn't replicate later - or was it
> just some kind of lucky accident, a particularly skilled and
> meticulous craftsman, or what?
>
> At least this experience indicates that this bouncing
> can be dealt successfully with - but how? Does our techs
> here have some insight?...
I would guess that different pads were used by those techs. Also possible that a tech did make the spring just a little stiffer, not enough to notice esp. after not playing the instrument for a while.
BTW, I re-did this spring on one of those clarinets fixed last year.
I did not achieve a perfect feel this time but it feels better than before (when it was too stiff).
After playing my clarinet with the F#/C# key being too soft, and then my friend's clarinet with the same spring being slightly too stiff, I do hot have a problem - I feel the stiffness first couple of passages, and then it feels fine.
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