Author: crazyclari
Date: 2023-10-30 02:49
JD
"You are correct that it is a Carl Fischer publication, not a Buffet Paris publication. Carl Fischer was the largest US distributor for Buffet clarinets though. This shows that Buffet clarinets would have been made to A=455Hz. I am happy to admit that I made an error, but the underlying point still stands."
It shows nothing of the sort, please this is silly. From what I remember Carl Fischer sold a variety of brands and instrument some were stencils.
This only show carl fischer sold "some" instruments at that pitch, it does not even mention buffet. Please read what you are saying, please be logical, make sense.
I have provided, and you have likely seen the buffet books (this is called a primary source, the better quality information) that says they did not make instruments to that pitch. This is printed documented distributed, published information. That is called facts.
JD you have been provided with, read, seen documentation, published information (the very stuff you want for facts) and seen that buffet did not make instruments to 461... They did not have the equipment to build them to that... Its great you have an opinion that they did (see above) They did have the equipment to build to 435 (I know the same pitch results and different notes) Again please stick to the documented, published by the manufacturer facts not what you want things to be. Unfortunately, you are ignoring the very things you say you would like. See below for???
"Okay, but what about the key that the maker originally intended? A Bb clarinet at A=~461 would be fundamentally the same as a B natural clarinet at A=435Hz. The question is, what is more likely to occur? We know there were instruments tuned to A=461.5Hz, it's strange to find one in America yes but at least we know they must have existed somewhere in the world. A late Romantic or Modern B natural clarinet? We do not have any direct evidence at this time. I don't doubt you in the slightest that your clarinet plays as a B natural clarinet at A=435Hz, but we do not have any documentation that proves that that is the original key the maker intended."
Its great you doubt world class experts and their opinion. Again the problem is if you look at the facts that it is the reverse of what you are saying a B clarinet at 435 is the same pitch as a Bb clarinet 461, problem is as we know from the documented facts Buffet did not make clarinets to 461. Buffet did not make the horn you are talking about again this is one of your arguments that does not stand any factual test. Please align your opinion in a logical order that is congruent with itself and the documented evidence. As occurs now people get instruments made for many reasons some to play Mozart works blah blah blah.
Like you I have an interesting collection.
As you highlighted 461 in Germany still does not address this matter we are talking about 435 in America here. French pitch as I have provided independent researched documented evidence was common in America. Not rare and unusual as your suggestion is, get a clarinet made for America in a German pitch what tha????.
Provide some documented fact as you are asking for and I am providing, be consistent with the documented facts.
You called it a buffet baritone. I could not see, identify any brand. Nor does the screen show any brand. Nor does the player mention any brand. Please provide accurate statements that are relevant. I cannot see how this proves anything, a random you tube showing someone who seems like a nice guy playing a number of low instruments and their bottom notes.
"The HP bari shows otherwise"
Further as we all know the bottom notes are where the 'tuning compromises' are usually made. So what you are implying is that the lowest and likely most out of tune notes on an instrument prove the pitch of the horn validates your argument. No one I know would think this was even a vaguely good way to tune.
Please do you really want to run with that??????? That would likely make most of my modern clarinets low Es in what pitch???? a very silly argument.
There is no-one taunting here the problem is you are saying things with no factual base and calling them facts, what you are providing is opinions and poor ones at that.
I am basing what I am saying on the facts, an instrument compared by bore dimension, pitch, length, tested by a world class expert on period instrument. I have not considered tone hole volume impact, which has the least impact on the volume of the horn and is for the sake of this discussion too hard to do.
Based upon documented evidence that supports this pitch was common at the time. The information provided by you supports this was a common pitch. The available documents advise Buffet did not make horns in any of the pitches you note.
I agree trying sell a Bb horn as a B horn is unethical. Lucky that was never mentioned, nor suggested, nor implied and in a previous thread I clearly stated that had not occurred and I had no intention of doing that. So this comment is totally irrelevant to the matter.
Now I work as an expert witness providing factual evidence to courts that is impartial. I have three auditing qualifications and two investigation qualification.
The following information you provided fails to meet the criteria for factual evidence. You have failed consistently to provide relevant factual arguments. Documentation is one form of confirmation. Interestingly you have totally ignored the documented factual arguments presented to you (buffet book, a primary source) and chosen to use unsubstantiated books (carl fischer publication, that does not mention Buffet an irrelevant source) you have consistently refuted the very documentation you say you want, which to your dislike demonstrates what you are saying is incorrect.
From my skills and experience the weakest form of verification is usually documentation the actual product/job in hand is always far more valid and factual. Let me know when you are willing to part with your $50, its highly unethical to state you will do something publicly that you have no intention of doing in reality.
"If you ever come across some direct evidence like a catalog, invoice or a piece of music that can be accurately dated please send it my way and collect your $50. Until then, we have no direct documentation of B natural clarinets in the late Romantic/Modern era."
You have now clearly states there is music for a B clarinet and there wer B clarinets. Excellent
If we use your argument, we cant say dinosaur bones are a fact, nor the horizon.... There's no catalogue.. Don't walk near the edge you may fall off:)
Did you go through the various BB threads were a person said they had a broken set of four clarinets. A, Bb, B and C and the case???? No catalogue....
On a note have you looked at the Buffet site for the crazy instruments they made and the number of instruments they displayed at the St Louis fair.
Post Edited (2023-11-06 12:04)
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