 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: spikey1973
Date: 2023-07-19 15:02
I have watched the Dale fedele's "testing a metric ton of ligatures".
This got me interested in the material used for these ligatures in the old days.
Because of that I am looking for people that can give me (specific) information on these ligatures and there material.
So I am wondering if any of you Bboard members can call themself a proud owner of an old german silver patented D.Bonade ligature.
It needs to be a old one as the newer once are made of a different materials and seem to be of inferior quality and since it is primairly the material used that I am interested in this will make all the difference.
Ifso I would like to ask you a couple of questions about these ligatures.
Kind greats
Matt.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2023-07-19 15:42
Regarding the material, I believe those you refer to are solid nickel silver. The newer ones which have been made for decades seem to be brass and then plated with nickel. The older versions can be hard to come by and often go for hundreds of dollars.
If you want to experiment with different materials, there are old solid nickel silver ligatures branded with the Martin name and others that can be found pretty easily. It could give you some idea of how that material may affect sound and response.
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Author: Jimis4klar
Date: 2023-07-19 15:54
I think you should look for other German silver ligatures, as these German silver Bonades usually get ridiculously expensive, unless you can and want to afford one. Dale suggested this as a solution in his metric tone of ligatures video. If you haven't watched It, there are another good ones too such as Bettoney, Leblanc etc Even some modern Bonades can be great If they fit well the contour of the mouthpiece.
Me I find German silver Bonades unreachable pricewise. Funny thing is, Dale told me he got his for 20$. At that time seller had no idea what was giving away basically.
Post Edited (2023-07-19 15:59)
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Author: spikey1973
Date: 2023-07-19 16:30
@super20dan
good to hear, I am happy that you have such a beautiful ligature!
Would you mind communicating off-bboard so I can get some more detailed information through you?
I am of course aware of the quality and pricing so I am not talking wierd stuff.
Simple NON-destructive house hold tests as well as close up photographs.
@Ed
Quote:
Regarding the material, I believe those you refer to are solid nickel silver.
end quote..
I agree, unfortunately "solid nickel silver" is a category of many subtuly and less subtilly different alloys. The idea is to get a little bit more information on the exact alloy used. Nickel silver as such is still easily obtainable, and if that would still be superior then that would not explain why it isn't widel used anymore..
I have actually an old german ligature from that time period that I would be silling to sacrifice at home myself. I tend to perform some tests on that one. But I am in discussion on a metallugist forum to see what the best approach would be.
@Jimis4klar
I wish I could afford one, but unfortunately I can't afford any. So therefor I am looking for someone that be willing to be cooperative with some simple household tests as mentioned above.
$20, then Dale ia a very lucky man indeed! Do you have direct contact with Dale? I would love to communicate directly with him. Would you mind passing my email-address on to him on my behalve?
Kind greats
Matthieu
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Author: Jimis4klar
Date: 2023-07-19 17:27
I don't have direct contact, neither knows me in person. He has FB, Instagram with his name and his email dalemfedele@gmail.com You can contact him.
Post Edited (2023-07-19 17:27)
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Author: symphony1010
Date: 2023-07-19 17:56
There are some worrying issues in the Fedele videos that almost override considerations of ligature selection. Never place a mouthpiece face down on the lay and never place the reed on the mouthpiece followed by the ligature. These are basic errors.
Once waits like these are ingrained it's just a matter of time before a player ruins his reed with the descending ligature.
What seems to be forgotten in all these considerations is the job of the player under fully professional conditions. There is so much nonsense now being perpetuated about ligatures. The important aspects are fit and quick operation in terms of reed removal and/or adjustment. None of my professional colleagues waste their time or money with exotic metals or fancy arrangements that could come to grief in a concert.
Looking around in the last few weeks I see mainly Rovner series 3 and Vandoren Optimum. Once the Rovner settles in it's all that is required. The problem is that amateur players keep believing that some fancy new offering will dramatically improve their playing. Last time I looked it was practice that did that!
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Author: spikey1973
Date: 2023-07-19 18:49
@ Stevesklar
I have send you an off-board email.
@ Jimis4klar
Thank you so much for that, much appreciated. I tried to look for it, but didn't.
@symphony1010
I agree that that is not the most ideal way to put on a reed and ligature, but that is for me not enough to take any other wisdome that he shares in doubt.
Additionally.. And I believe I have been very clear in any post on the topic, I am quite aware that the real quality of playing comes from the playing more that the tools used. but that doens't exclude that the tools used will have an influence. These two are not mutually exclusive. And mere interest in the latters is good, up to a point, at least IMHO. But clearly lots of other people think differently about that.. that is up to them. as long as we keep playing and having fun, for me all is fine.
Kind greats
Matthieu
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-07-19 20:02
What are the proportions of Germans to silver in German silver alloy anyway ?
On something as small as a ligature...you can hardly expect to get a whole German ....maybe just a toe or something! I'm guessing that the percentage of silver is very close to the percentage of German in this metal.
If you're not shure it's genuine German silver ..get it DNA tested !
Sorry!..He-he !....the heat here is turning my brain into jam.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: symphony1010
Date: 2023-07-19 20:14
I play and have fun but is also my living. I can assure you that most of what appears on that channel does not stem from the practical reality of holding down a job in a major symphony orchestra!
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Author: spikey1973
Date: 2023-07-19 20:45
@Julian..
well I believe the ratio of germans to silver would be 1 not?
isn't 0/0=1 nowadays? or did the mad math scientists change there minds again?
@symphony1010
Unfortunately i am not the one to judge here..
Kind greats
Matthieu
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Author: kilo
Date: 2023-07-19 20:59
Quote:
This type of metal alloy was developed in the 19th century by German metalworkers. But did you know that this is not actually silver? In fact, it has no silver element at all. It was developed to drive down the costs of sterling silver and other types of silver for making jewellery and other items. As a result, German or Nickel Silver is a sturdy metal that looks a lot like silver. The proportions of copper, nickel, and zinc used for making German Silver will vary; however, it will be specified in the manufacture of commercial alloys.
The name German Silver is attributed to the lustrous appearance that makes it look like silver. This is why German Silver can also be referred to as “nickel silver”. It therefore exhibits the properties of copper such as its strength, sheen, and malleability. The high conduction quality makes it easy to hammer or shape it into commercial sheets.
https://mearto.com/silver-and-objects-of-vertu/german-silver
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-07-19 21:05
Hi Matt,
I also got really into ligatures when I started. However, with hindsight, it probably would have been better if I had saved my money up until I could buy a really suitable mp. That was what really made the difference for me.
I was tempted by ligatures mainly because they can be so inexpensive and seem like a cheap way to make things better. However, once I had accidentally spent money on ten different ligatures, than that is a lot of mp money gone.
I ended up back on a Rovner Dark, which was where I had started three years previously, and I am really happy with it.
Jen
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Author: kilo
Date: 2023-07-19 21:18
I've got a new Bonade which fits my Fobes SF perfectly. I doubt that it affects my tone at all.
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Author: spikey1973
Date: 2023-07-19 21:57
@kilo,
It all a matter what you compare it with.. since when do you have it and what did you have before. If that was also a modern brass nickel plated binding ligature then it will indeed make not much difference.
Kind greats
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Author: spikey1973
Date: 2023-07-19 22:01
@ Jennifer,
Yeah I know.. there is a lot cheap distraction in the field.
I have tried a few 'odd' once.. but I going to leave it at that.
For now in tend to go back to the brass nickel plated cheap chines ligature that came with the clarinet.
The tone is oke.. (could be much much better) but at least is has a quick respons. Something that I miss from the once I tried to make or test.
Kind greats
Matthieu.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-07-19 23:08
Hi Matt,
My instrument came with a cheap metal ligature but I could never get the reed to sound with that. I had to switch to a Rovner.
I think your home made string ligature should be an extremely good one if it goes on and stays on. That kind of flexibility can really help.
Jen
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Author: lmliberson
Date: 2023-07-20 00:32
symphony1010 said: "never place the reed on the mouthpiece followed by the ligature....Once waits like these are ingrained it's just a matter of time before a player ruins his reed with the descending ligature."
Well, I suppose this is true - for some...maybe most.
However, whether it's wise or not to do so? Apparently, I've been incorrectly doing so for the sixty-one years I've been playing and - lucky me? - have yet to have an "accident" due to my own way of affixing the reed to the mouthpiece with my ligature. Must be due to the methodical care in which I do so. 👍🏻
Of course, I've found several ways to destroy reeds other than that!
He also said: "I can assure you that most of what appears on that channel does not stem from the practical reality of holding down a job in a major symphony orchestra!"
Agreed!
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Author: Ed
Date: 2023-07-20 02:57
Quote:
Never place a mouthpiece face down on the lay and never place the reed on the mouthpiece followed by the ligature. These are basic errors.
I have put the mouthpiece face down on the lay. I do not drag it or slide and am very careful about the surface where I place the mouthpiece. I always figure that IF I don't have the option of placing it in a case, it is better than watching the mouthpiece fall or roll off a table.
I always place the reed on first and over many years of playing professionally and teaching, have never had an issue or problem. I know some claim that you can damage the tip of the reed or mouthpiece, but I have not had an issue. Honestly, I have young students who do it the same way and have had no issues.
I know everyone has different ideas and experiences, but just sharing mine. Do whatever works.
As far as ligatures, to me, they are the smallest part of the equation. They may have a small effect on tone, but for me mostly affect response. I have tried a variety of ligatures and am not sure that anyone else notices a difference. The cynical side of me says that all the sellers of high end ligatures need to have people believe that the effect is crucial.
What is crucial is that they need to be easy to use, hold the reed securely and not slip when changing clarinets or removing the mouthpiece to swab.
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Author: super20dan
Date: 2023-07-20 03:30
i love dale,s lig vid and watch it over and over. i thought i was the ultimate lig junky -till i saw his vids.lol i got my german silver bonade for free from a sax player who didnt play clarinet as it belonged to his ex wife who didnt know what it was. there is a german silver one on ebay for alto clarinet i have been eyeing for a long time but its pricey. i agree with dales way of putting on a bonade as it is the best gauge for a proper fit. i made a german silver martin lig into a bonade by silver soldering on my own rails . not as good as my real bonade tho in results. old martins do play well but not bonade well to me. i allready have a slew of excellent clarinet mpcs so for now i tinker with ligatures. i have tried email to dale but no response. however he lives very close to me . i would love to meet him someday.
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Author: kilo
Date: 2023-07-20 04:01
Quote:
...never place the reed on the mouthpiece followed by the ligature.
This makes more sense with saxophone mouthpieces, especially metal ones where the body is almost cylindrical. Clarinet mouthpieces have a conical taper, making inadvertent contact with the reed much less likely. It would be extremely unlikely on a bass mouthpiece.
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