 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: spikey1973
Date: 2023-05-05 22:42
Hey To all,,
I have a (budget) hard rubber Bb clarinet coming my way.
I am completely new to playing the clarine (at an age of just not 50), so I felt like start with a student kind of instrument was the way to go, still ABS was not my thing.
Did get my self some vandoren blue reed's from 1,5 to 3,5 just to see what accommodates me best.. starting low ofcourse and expectingnothing special from the mouthpiece.
I expect that reed supplied with the clarinet is something mess around with first.. to feel around and then quickly hop pver to the 1,5 van doren, ofcourse focussing on my embouchure (still a strange word) fisrt..
My mayor question is what to do with the rubber clarinet.
I understand it is not like a wooden version, so it will not absorb the condensation like wood would, so i guess I wont have to limit my play to15min a day at start. But cleaning during / after paying still seems usefull to me for more reasons. What about the fluids in the tone holes, specifically the pads. how about temperature and other thingsi am unaware of I should take in account.
so basically i am looking for rubber instrument specific maintenance advice.
Kindest greats
Matthieu
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Author: m1964
Date: 2023-05-05 22:58
Just swipe it a couple of times after playing, that's all.
No reason to limit playing time (as would need to be done with a wood instrument).
Check for leaks since even a new clarinet can leak air and have it corrected (if needed).
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Author: spikey1973
Date: 2023-05-05 23:17
yeah that sounds like a good plan.
any particular advice on the approach to finding / locating the leaks in an at home setting?
Kind greats
Matthieu
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-05-06 00:29
Make a feeler gauge to check for leaks under the pads . I use a little strip of fine cigarette rolling paper . Close the pad on the end of the paper strip to trap it between the pad and the lip of the tone hole ,holding down the key with normal playing pressure and pull the paper to feel if it grabs . Anywhere it doesn't grab is going to leak .
While it's good to know how to check for leaks yourself , you would do well to get your instrument checked over by a Tech as new instruments frequently need a few adjustments and that way you can also enjoy the benefits of their advice on the care and maintenance of your instrument.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Hunter_100
Date: 2023-05-06 00:36
I use a strip of the plastic material cut from a potato chip bag (or similar food item bag). It is very thin and durable, and I like chips more than cigarettes!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-05-06 03:38
You don't have to do much except dry the bore after playing and wipe the surface and keys down with a soft cotton cloth (or old T-shirt) to maintain the finish. Don't use any form of abrasive or polish as that will harm the finish and the mechanism.
Also keep the tenon corks sufficiently greased so the joints all fit together easily - don't overdo or neglect to grease the corks, only grease them in moderation. Clean off any excess grease that oozes out from the joints or collects at the tenon shoulders using a cotton bud/Q-tip and also (although not vitally important on plastic or ebonite clarinets), keep the sockets clean by wiping them dry before putting the joints back in the case. Use a separate piece of paper towel to do this as that will prevent mineral deposits building up in the sockets. If you do need to dry or clean the tenon corks, gently wipe them with a paper towel and then apply a thin, even layer of cork grease to them.
Any water that collects in the toneholes can be blown out (hold the affected key open and blow into the tonehole), then any remaining water can be blotted off the pads, toneholes and surrounding areas using absorbent paper or cigarette papers.
Any other more involved maintenance work should be carried out by a specialist woodwind repairer. It pays in the long run to have your clarinet regularly serviced - anything from one to two yearly intervals depending on how much you play it.
What you SHOULDN'T do is leave it in direct sunlight as that will discolour the surface of the ebonite and make it turn green and smell of sulphur. Also, don't wash the joints or ebonite mouthpieces with hot water.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2023-05-06 13:11)
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Author: spikey1973
Date: 2023-05-06 11:07
@ Hunter_100, I so agree with the chips being better the cigarettes , as an MD I should
I did already look into the thickness of plastic of chip bags when i was pointed to mylar, just don't feel like buing a expensive balloon for that.
There is actually a fair difference in thickness (between the brands) in the plastic of chip bags with a strong correlation to price.
Lays and other brands want there bags to stand up nice, which requires a fair bit of added thickness. 3-5x as thick.
Compared to cigarette paper, this will make them (relatively) thicker, them being also a lot smoother/ more slippery then cigaret paper. I was wundering, does this affect the functionality. Do you have experience with both?
@Chris_P
I read that bad cork applicatiom, maintenance, quality of base material can indeed make the tenons leak in a way that I doubt I will be able to locate with he blow/suck test at home.
I will go and look for a local repairman.. But as a goldsmith and fysicist besides being an MD, I feel I have a fair bit of know how to tackle most issues (beyond setting te tension screw) myself. Ofcourse only after the proper amount of readin.
and check.. no prolongued direct sunlight :D
can't wait for it to arrive :D
Kind greats, Matthieu
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-05-06 13:15
Chances are the keywork and other plated parts will be in nickel plate as that's not going to react to the sulphur content of the ebonite. As you're a goldsmith and physicist, you'll know about the properties of nickel plate and that while it has a bright finish, it will develop a bloom over time on hidden and less accessible areas which is easily wiped off with a silver polishing cloth.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: spikey1973
Date: 2023-05-06 16:57
That is exactly what I am expecting. Definitely do not expect a silver plating. Unfortunate, but it is not what I payed for so. Plenty of clean silver polish rags here in my work place so that will be fine. Do you have any expectations on the base material? Ferro / Non-ferro.
I don't mind the plating as much as long as there is a good base metal.
Kind greats
Matthieu
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-05-06 18:12
Chip bag plastic.
The thin plastic wrapper used in a lot of packaging .
Tinsel that's not too narrow and floppy .
I like fine cigarette rolling papers because buying them is healthier than eating chips ....Ha-ha! You can cut a wedge shaped piece which is not too floppy to work with and also it offers a bit more drag than plastic which I find helps in determining the evenness of a pads seating . ...... Which brings me to a more significant matter than what to use for a feeler gauge , which is that the first test for leaks on a new/ unknown instrument should involve checking all pads for proper closure at four points around the circumference of each one to check that the pads are seating flat over the tone holes. One thing is that a pad doesn't close properly for adjustment reasons , and another is that it doesn't close properly because it's been glued in crooked .
If you find that you have any doubts or questions about your new instrument, it really is a good thing to take it to a knowledgable music shop or repair person, as they can check it oven and show you all you need to know about greasing tenons and swabbing and lubricating the key work . It won't take long and all is much clearer if somebody shows you while explaining . You'll need to get some key oil and no doubt more cork grease than comes with the instrument anyway .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-05-06 20:34
The base metal for keywork is either brass, bronze or nickel silver depending on the application. Nickel silver is the industry standard for clarinet keywork, although any other of the non-ferrous alloys mentioned are fine if used in the correct manner.
Bronze is usually used for cast keywork pieces, although some nickel silver keywork pieces (ring keys, touchpieces and even whole keys) are also cast or drop forged. Flat metal parts (key arms) are either stamped out or milled from sheet metal.
Pad cups are either stamped from sheet metal or machined from solid rod. The key rods (solid) and key barrels (hollow) are round or hollow brass or nickel silver. All keywork parts should ideally be silver soldered together, but sometimes they may have been soft soldered which won't stand up to the rigours the keywork demands.
The screws are most likely stainless steel and the needle springs are either stainless steel wire or blued spring steel. Flat springs are either phosphor bronze, blued spring steel or stainless steel.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: spikey1973
Date: 2023-05-07 00:50
@ Chris:
thank you, very informative! and yeah, i wouldn't be the least happy with soft soldering. fingers crossed :D
I will defintely give the metal work a close inspection, I do realise that I should restrain myself from trying to fix myself, that what is less then ideal. On the otherhand. I will take more time and patience than an professional would considering time/cost/value. As said als a goldsmith, I am very well known with repair jobs on work that isn't worth your time. And I believe a prof would think the same here. Still slightly different if you do it yourself on your own instrument when you are willing to take your time at no other costs then a few hours of boring tv-time.
@ Julian
well, I just realise the discussion isnt worth the time.. i just make both and see what is best for me.. long livety vs functionality will come clear in time.
I feel I will be quite capable of replacing the pads. Am well versed in the use of shell-lacquer but many other options also available, hot glue, E8000 glue (series). Personally i feel a glue like E8000 would be very suitable.
(to the people, unfamiliar with the glue. E8000 is a glue used to glue phones together.. safe for electronics. hardens but with a very slight touch of flexibility, not so it moves, but so it doesn't break like power glue does. It hardens fairly quickly and softens on light heating (hairdryer) and best offall very cheap.
But again, as said.. restraint
Kind greats
Matthieu
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-05-07 13:08
Matthiew,
It's great that you're into the technical side of the instrument, because unlike learning to play ...say....the piano , the clarinet is one of those instruments where it can be difficult , especially initially ,to separate playing difficulties into technical problems vs. your shortcomings as a learner . Lamentably even some music schools tend towards the position that a less than properly set up instrument is good enough for a beginner student and that can lead to people who had a future playing quitting,because they felt they just sucked rather than realizing or having it pointed out, that they were bucking some technical issue with their instrument . The horn the mouthpiece the reed and you .....a lot of ducks to get lined up .
Beginner or professional , the technical side of the clarinet is central to the playability of the instrument .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: spikey1973
Date: 2023-05-07 16:37
@ Julian
Thanks for your support! Generally advice is more like, "don't touch it yourself"! even breathing on it would need a specialized repair.
But ofcourse I agree with you, taken inaccount, that although I have some background.. that I am new to the clarinet, also in the technical way, so much much to learn.
For me, learning about how to play the instrument is the whole package. Understanding musical (notes), the clarinet dexterity (in many ways), the technical setup and ofcourse the physics behind the instument before tinkering too much with it.
Recent years I have "started" with the violin, electrical because playing that "accoustically" was my only "option".. as no musical instruments were allowed where I lived, so this was still a valid option.
Before starting to learning to actually play, I dived into how to hold the bow, how to bow, focus on the movement, how to re-string, how to set up the bridge properly, how to cut my own bridge, how to rehair the bow (now that are professional jobs if you ever find one, but I managed just fine (IMHO!) and get myself a porper bow instead of the supplied student bow and that even before I went to fingering positions.
These fine tunings helpt my play quite a lot. I am understand ofcourse that, that is not for everyone, but me it helps quite a lot.
Similar now to learning the clarinet. Understanding the issues with right and wrong airflows (mouth piece, barrel, instrument) how to create a good emboucement, what is a good mouthpiece (is mine a good one, a mediocre or even a bad one, how can I tell, should i replace it and ifso, when and for what). What is a good reed, what is a good reed for me, how to fix a not to good reed are all important questions for me to help me through the process, even before I recieved the clarinet itself.
Hence my start with the question on the maintenance of the rubber material of the clarinet, as Icouldn't find anythings on it online.
anyway, just recieved notice it arrived in my country, so one of these days...
Kind greats, Matthieu
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-05-08 10:29
Matthieu,
I would strongly recommend that you find yourself a clarinet teacher .
They can begin by testing your instrument and then go on to observe and listen to your practice , offering you the accurate step by step advice and support for your smooth learning progress .
This is something that neither this forum nor all the info you will find on the Internet can realistically offer .
Enjoy your new instrument. Julian
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-05-08 17:49
I reiterate Julian's reply above about finding a clarinet specialist teacher early on as I started to type this, then something way beyond my control happened to the technology and I lost the entire thing when I gave up and shut everything down.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: lydian
Date: 2023-05-08 18:44
Please don’t ruin this clarinet with the wrong glue. Use glues traditionally used on instruments so the next owner won’t have to undo your mess.
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-05-08 19:44
Lydian,
The man is getting his first new clarinet and you're worrying about the next owners issues with glue ?
Give us a break !
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: lydian
Date: 2023-05-08 22:37
Julian ibiza wrote:
>
> Lydian,
>
> The man is getting his first new clarinet and you're worrying
> about the next owners issues with glue ?
>
> Give us a break !
>
He went on for 2 paragraphs about using mobile phone glue on his clarinet. Forgive me for trying to stop a beginner from ruining his clarinet for himself and others when he gives up a month from now.
He is also not interested in anything related to playing, only trivial things like cleaning and repairs he has no business doing due to lack of skills and experience.
Beginners think the long history of their instrument means nothing and that they should reinvent the wheel. This is usually a very bad idea.
spikey1973 wrote:
> I feel I will be quite capable of replacing the pads. Am well versed in the use > of shell-lacquer but many other options also available, hot glue, E8000 > > glue (series). Personally i feel a glue like E8000 would be very suitable.
>
> (to the people, unfamiliar with the glue. E8000 is a glue used to glue phones > together.. safe for electronics. hardens but with a very slight touch of
> flexibility, not so it moves, but so it doesn't break like power glue does. It
> hardens fairly quickly and softens on light heating (hairdryer) and best offall > very cheap.
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Author: Reese Oller
Date: 2023-05-08 23:12
Now, now; no need for argument! It is rather bold to assert with no qualms that someone will give up a new instrument a month from now. Given the options, and Matthieu's apparent expertise with using such a glue, that obviously if he screws up it can be easily rectified. I don't know your history, but it seems like you are being a rather adversarial presence, with no cause to be. Using a different glue won't end the world, afterall!
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Author: spikey1973
Date: 2023-05-09 01:36
@ Julian and Chris.
I totally agree. a teacher is absolutly necessairy and I will certainly do just that. For the first (baby)steps, i have a friend that will show me. From there on I will look into what teacher there is around me locally (alread looked, but difficult to find unfortunately)
@ Reese.
Thank you for you confidence!
@ Lydian,
In principle I agree with your point of view!
Traditional metjods are traditional for very good reasons. They have with stood that scruteny of time and people know how to use it.
On the otherhand. I know that some new methods / techniques will help too.
For example, hot glue is often use for pads (acording to online sources) and also by professionals. Hot glue would IMHO also be a new comer. and still it has been (reasonably) widely accepted because of ease of use and it's specific properties. Never the less i don't believe the first clairinet builders would've liked that. new things scare the uninformed and that is understandeble. (un)fortunately there is only one way around it. Gain experience!
I can only advice anyone who doesn't know it, to use it for any hobby purposes (not instrument related) . I honoustly believe it will be your 90% go to glue, not just for mobile phone. Often inventions rise above there intended goal. For example WD40 was invented (as far as i have been correctly informed) as a coating for the space shuttle to shed ice upon launch, now everyone I know has a bottle in his/her garage (most use it wrongly though) and I an assure you, none of you have a space shuttle to use it on.
Additionally i did not mention anything related to playing as that is not the topic of the question and IMHO it's not the right medium here either. The idea of the question was maintence, rubber in general as I am fairly unfamiliar with how to treat such a base material. So i wanted to know more and generally the topic widened to more general maintenance of the instrument and this has been very informative to me! For that I thank everyone who has reacted in a constructive manner, but please do not mistake me trying to stay on topic as not being interested in the main purpose.. Learning how to make music with this beautiful instrument (which i hope will arrive tomorrow )
oh yeah don't worry about next owners.. there won't be any, I rarely give up things I set my mind on but, you couldn't know as you don't know me. Assumptions, never a good thing!
Kind greats
Matthieu.
Post Edited (2023-05-09 01:48)
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Author: Hunter_100
Date: 2023-05-09 03:09
wd-40 is way older than the space shuttle program. Hot glue is used not for its adhesive quality but for the fact that it is adjustable after aplication by reheating.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-05-09 03:38
On the contrary, hot glue IS used for its adhesive properties as it's sticky at a much lower temperature compared to shellac which makes it ideal for use when installing synthetic pads, whereas the much higher temperature needed to melt shellac to get it to bond to plastics and synthetic pads will melt or distort them.
Shellac is still best for skin and leather pads which have a cardboard backing and also cork pads. Buffet and others use hot glue across the board on their clarinets for installing pads, even though they use skin, Gore-tex covered skin, leather and cork pads.
The common types of adhesive for general clarinet use are:
- Hot melt glue for synthetic pads
- Shellac* for skin, leather and cork pads
- Contact adhesive for key corks and tenon corks
* Shellac is also used for installing push-fit thumb and speaker tubes on wooden clarinets, except threaded ones where wax is used to seal them. You can use contact adhesive for installing push-fit thumb and speaker tubes on plastic and ebonite clarinets to avoid melting anything, or use cork grease on threaded ones to seal them.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Hunter_100
Date: 2023-05-09 04:32
I meant hot glue vs conventional glues. In my mind I was thinking shellac counted as hot glue too.
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Author: spikey1973
Date: 2023-05-10 00:01
@ Hunter_100,
I stand corrected! https://www.wd40.com/history/
@ Chris
Quote:
The common types of adhesive for general clarinet use are:
- Hot melt glue for synthetic pads
- Shellac* for skin, leather and cork pads
- Contact adhesive for key corks and tenon corks
* Shellac is also used for installing push-fit thumb and speaker tubes on wooden clarinets, except threaded ones where wax is used to seal them. You can use contact adhesive for installing push-fit thumb and speaker tubes on plastic and ebonite clarinets to avoid melting anything, or use cork grease on threaded ones to seal them.
end Quote:
very informative, thank you!
Additionally.. I'd like to state the following, but I believe this is getting more and more off-topic, so i believe we should rest the glue topic entirely.
IMHO, adhesives have (at least) 3 different ways of functioning, some combining 2 or more of them.
1) contain long chains of protein molecules that bond with the molecules of the surface they are spread upon by entering the pores and spaces of the material like white glues.
2) creating a vacume/capillairy bond upon curing (hot glue's, powerglue, E8000),
3) create a more durable chemical bond (chemical welds)
A) Additionally, some become hard (and brittle), some stay rubbery in one form or another after curing.
B) One should also take in account qualities like reversal capabilities of the curing process
C) How to remove, before and after curing (mechanical vs chemical) and the effect this has on the base material(s).
All these different qualities, should ofcourse be taken in account when choosing the right glue for the right job.
Personally for me a good glue has the following quality:
Strong vacume based adhesion, hard but not brittle so it stays there ground upon stong forces and sudden impacts, the reversal properties of curing, chemical removal without the use of strong solvents.
Take this information as you like, as I said. it is just IMHO.
Kind greats
Matthieu
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-05-10 03:09
Shellac is the most favoured for pad installation as it sets hard to provide a good foundation to the pad as well as having the ability to be softened or melted to adjust things. It's also alcohol and solvent soluble which makes cleaning up any residue easy. I'm sure as a goldsmith, you've used either shellac, sealing wax or pitch when making jewellery and they all have very similar properties which you'll have knowledge of already.
And just to go further off topic, Yanagisawa use a mix of both shellac and hot glue pellets to install their sax pads as the hot glue offers good adhesion at lower temperatures than shellac which is ideal for lacquered finishes and the shellac offers the firmness and stability for long term reliability.
When oiling the keywork on your clarinet (or any other woodwind instrument), don't use 3 in 1 oil as that contains resin which will gum things up, don't use vegetable oils or bore oil as they also turn gummy and don't use WD40 either. Use proper key oil formulated for musical instruments, gear oil or sewing machine oil that doesn't have any resin or turn gummy through use.
If you're planning on getting into doing your own repair work, then this clarinet will be ideal to practice things on, then when you upgrade to a better instrument, those techniques can be applied to that as and when you need to do your own running repairs.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-05-10 10:15
There once was a man from Peru,
Who fell in a barrel of glue,
He stayed in there wet ,
And he played clarinet
Saying," Now this is all I can do".
Sorry !....my brain just tends to vomit this nonsense .
No questions about the glue he fell into please ....Ha-ha !
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: spikey1973
Date: 2023-05-11 15:50
@ Chris:
Quote:
And just to go further off topic, Yanagisawa use a mix of both shellac and hot glue pellets to install their sax pads as the hot glue offers good adhesion at lower temperatures than shellac which is ideal for lacquered finishes and the shellac offers the firmness and stability for long term reliability.
/Quote
hmmm very informative! thanks again :D
Quote:
When oiling the keywork on your clarinet (or any other woodwind instrument), don't use 3 in 1 oil as that contains resin which will gum things up, don't use vegetable oils or bore oil as they also turn gummy -> wouldn't think of it!
Don't use WD40 either -> Ofcourse not, WD40 isno lubricant (IMHO).
Use proper key oil formulated for musical instruments, gear oil or sewing machine oil that doesn't have any resin or turn gummy through use -> got that always on hand. :D
Quote:
If you're planning on getting into doing your own repair work, then this clarinet will be ideal to practice things on, then when you upgrade to a better instrument, those techniques can be applied to that as and when you need to do your own running repairs.
/Quote.
Not directly, but indeed later yeah, for now I just like to understand (inner) workings, as I firmly believe it will help me using the instument correctly.
@ Julian:
Haha..nice one..and nice one to end this topic with :D
I recieved my clarinet yesterday, got my first notes out and am loving it.
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Author: Reese Oller
Date: 2023-05-27 09:22
Nice, I just recently got a (new to me) clarinet, it's in the shop right now! I would attempt an overhaul myself, seeing as with my career interest I'll have to eventually, but I didn't want to break a nice intermediate clarinet. Happy clarinetting!
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-05-27 12:02
Hi Reese,
Sounds like you've done the right thing . Starting with an instrument professionally regulated, you can now go on to tentatively do the ongoing work to keep it that way.( if in doubt ...just seek advice!)
Clarinets are good honest bits of engineering like old clocks and sewing machines and are nice to work on providing there is a sound grasp of all the principals involved , an awareness of how and where to make a correct adjustment and a sensitive hand for this precision work .
Better care awareness of the mechanics tends to accompany the hands-on thinker .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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