 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Ruby
Date: 2001-07-30 22:11
We just purchased a Selmer 300 for my 6th grade daughter who is beginning band this year.
Stupid question #1: When my daughter, Kathy, tried a clarinet at school, she was able to readily make a good sound. When we got our new horn home, of course, she wanted to blow on it a little. It was difficult for her to make a sound with. She wetted the reed in her mouth for a few minutes before playing, and I tried repositioning the reed, but still she had a hard time. What are your ideas on why she could make noise on the school's instrument, but not on our new one? (The reed is a #2). It has shaken her confidence. Should I not let her try it again until school starts?
Stupid question #2: Kathy was pulling the cloth through the barrels of the clarinet to dry it after our initial experimental session and the cloth became stuck in the upper barrel. I backed the cloth out and found that the cloth couldn't go through the upper part of the barrel because of a protuberance on the inside near the top. What is the purpose of the protuberance? It is covered by a key mechanism on the lower outside of the instrument. (sorry for my lack of clarinet terminology).
I guess we need to go back to the music shop for clarinet care and cleaning lessons because we're not sure what to do with the packet of big fuzzy "pipe cleaners" that came in a care kit. There were supposed to be cleaning instructions in the kit, but it was more of a definition sheet.
Thanks for any advice. And thanks for not laughing. At least where I can hear you!
Ruby
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Author: Pam
Date: 2001-07-30 22:28
No question is stupid as long as you go ahead and ask it.
1. Are you using the mouthpiece that came with the horn? I've heard that some of the Selmer ones are decent but that most mouthpieces that are included with your horn purchase are junk. You might try purchasing a better quality student mouthpiece. Your local store could probably help you select something or maybe others on here have recommendations. It won't cost a lot to save much frustration.
2. That protuberance is a part of the register key that helps you play higher notes in very basic terms. When swabbing the instrument out, you just need to be careful and make sure that the cloth doesn't get all wadded up there.
You probably don't really need those pipe cleaner type things. The manufacturer would like us to leave them inside the horn to absorb more moisture after playing. But if you leave them in the horn, the moisture is staying inside the horn.
Best wishes and I hope Kathy enjoys many years of playing the clarinet!
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Author: Al
Date: 2001-07-30 22:51
That little tube prevents condensed breath and saliva (water) from running out of the register key. Since the key is on the the "gravity side" of the instrument you'd have a continuous flow of water leaking out. Notice that the thomb hole beneath also has a shield on the inside of the bore.
Unfortunately, many swabs are just too thick to pass through easily. This is not a rare occurence. I've been using a silk swab for years just to avoid this problem.
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Author: glenn kantor
Date: 2001-07-30 22:52
No, these questions are not stupid, and those of us who are clarinet educators/performers have heard all of these before. Firstly, not knowing the mouthpiece that your daughter is playing on, my guess is that it is what we call a "stock" mouthpiece that came with the horn. Unfortunately, the quality of these mouthpieces leaves a lot to be desired, and most teachers advise the student to discard this mouthpiece in favor of a good student mouthpiece. (read the recent posts on this web page under "R-13 gripes" as many of us have just recently discussed this very issue). Buying a decent quality student mouthpiece is money well spent, as your daughter's beginning lessons and initial tone production will be much easier on her (and you). The strength of the reed seems fine, but again make sure it is positioned on the mouthpiece with the ligature correctly tightened.
As for the swab getting stuck: until your daughter is used to doing this on her own, pull the swab slowly through the horn. If it feels as if it is not going through, stop immediately and back it out. Retry if necessary. Some of the newer silk swabs are less likely to get stuck in the horn (my own personal experience).
The "fuzzy pipe cleaners" you refer to (I won't mention the brand name) are not something I am fond of. After time, they seem to disintigrate, leaving lint and sheddings in the horn, causing more problems later. Also, the idea of leaving a moist swab in the horn doesn't really make a whole lot of sense, especially on a wooden clarinet. Hope some of this helps...Don't hesitate to ask more...
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Author: ~jerry
Date: 2001-07-31 00:06
Suggestions from a 63 year old novice (been playing less than a year).
First, what's a stupid question? Or, is this a stupid question? So let's start again..........your daughter cannot ask a stupid question - ever.
Second, before she allows herself to get discouraged, find a teacher............I have learned a lot of things in my lifetime by the self-taught method. However, clarinet playing, like golf, is not a subject that lends itself well to learning without expert advice, believe me!
Third it sounds to me like she has not learned the proper breathing and the correct emboucher....she's not holding her mouth right, as it were............get a teacher. Furthermore, the Clark Fobes Debut is a very good beginner mouthpiece for about $30 (got mine at Muncy Winds Music Co. for $28+sh < muncywinds.com > ). But no matter how poor the mouthpiece she has, she should still get some kind of sound, even if it's a squeak -- IMHO.
Hope this helps .......... I've been the discouraging route, as have others on this BB but the folks here keep pulling me back up by the knap of the neck.
GL
~ jerry
Stillin Clarinet Boot Camp
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Author: Anji
Date: 2001-07-31 00:14
Hey Ruby,
Make sure you have a separate room for your daughter's practice sessions.
It will make a great impression on her to receive praise, but the first few months may be something of a trial for the rest of the family.
(My wife is just now staying in the room after 1.5 years of playing; it takes awhile.)
Anyway, here are my fundamentalist beliefs concerning the first weeks;
1) It's all about the reed.
I recommend the Legere synthetic reed (about #2 1/4 strength) for beginners.
This synthetic reed is VERY good, and will outlast natural cane, like the Rico,
10:1 so it is comparable in price.
It is impervious to humididty and temperature changes, and won't fray at the tip.
It virtually eliminates the reed hassles plaguing us beginners.
2) It's all about supporting the reed.
A decent beginner mouthpiece should cost no more that $35.
The Hite Premier, Fobes debut (my favorite) and others designed for beginners,
in hard plastic are excellent. When the kid breaks one, a replacement is... $35!
The stuff they pack with new horns serves one purpose; to fill the case space.
Get the band director to steer you in the direction normally recommended;
Vandoren B45 is frequently recommended, as easy to blow and decent in
sound. I think they're a little pricey for the first year.
(And me a mouthpiece junkie! I've got more than I care to admit.)
3) It's all about playing the reed.
Practice makes the difference.
20 minutes daily, is better than 60 minutes on Saturday. Playing this thing
requires stamina in muscles most of us don't use often. Only regular training
makes that possible.
Do make sure to take in any concert or performance featuring the music YOU like.
It is a great way to spend time with the kids, without Barney or some such treacle on in the background.
Look over the retailers in the Resources section. I have great results with Muncy Winds, International Musical suppliers and The Woodwind and Brasswind.
Tell them the player's development level and your budget, they really want to help.
(Happy customers come back.)
4) It's all about the reed as a window to the music.
Don't get caught up in a horn search, the equipment gets less important as you
move away from the player.
The Vito, Bundy and Buffet plastic horns are very good.
Avoid the Lark, Blessing, Monarch, Monique and other Chinese horns.
( They are poorly made and sound like a sack of cats on the way to the river.)
Congratulations and commendations to you as a reed player's parent, there's a special place in Heaven for you folks.
Just be glad it's not the Violin; string player's parents go to Heaven too, they just have to go through Hell to get there.
anji
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-07-31 00:33
Al wrote:
>
> That little tube prevents condensed breath and saliva
> (water) from running out of the register key. Since the key is
> on the the "gravity side" of the instrument you'd have a
> continuous flow of water leaking out.
Al, it's a bit more complicated than that - the length of the tube, the inner diamter, and indded the shape of the inner hole all affect the tuning of the insttument. I think keeping saliva out of the hole isn't the objective of the tube; indeed, the "wrap around" mechanisms had the register hole on the top of the clarinet and still there was a tube in there.
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Author: Micaela
Date: 2001-07-31 01:22
The above advice is excellent, I'd just add a few little things.
1. I wouldn't reccommend a Legere reed for a beginner. Beginners break *a lot* of reeds. Legeres are excellent for playing but they're expensive to replace (even though they are harder to break than cane reeds, it's still quite easy). If your daughter is a careful type, it may be ok. When I was a beginner, I used Mitchell Lurie reeds. Stay away from plain Ricos.
2. Do get a better mouthpiece...the Hite Premiere is another good option at about $30. If you have the money, get a nicer one like a Vandoren. It can make all the difference.
3. Reed position: I don't know if you already know this or not but when you look at the clarinet from the front, you should just be able to see the tip of the reed. Make sure it is straight. If it is a new reed, try soaking it in water for a few minutes to soften it up.
4. Not only do "pad savers" do little good, they can actually harm a clarinet. I know that it sounds like a good idea, but get it out of there.
Good luck to you and your daughter!
Micaela
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Author: willie
Date: 2001-07-31 01:51
I definately agree with getting a better mouthpiece. Even the very expencive clarinets come with crappy mouthpieces. It would help if she could try several at a time to see which one plays best for her and her instrunent as we all have different chops and different horns. What works for me or my daughter may not work well for yours. You said she first tried the school horn but couldn't get hers to speak. It may well be that the new horn wasn't gone over by the store tech before it was sold. Sometimes even a new horn needs to be checked and tweeked for leaks after shipping. Then again the school horn may have had a better mouthpiece. Its best to have the horn checked out by someone. I've seen several kids (and adults) get discouraged and quit, thinking they had no talent and problem was their horn all along.
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Author: jim lande
Date: 2001-07-31 03:19
I concur on the Hite Premier, definately good quality for under $30. (Of course, I'd give up my left foot before i parted with my Fobes refinished contra alto mpc. but that is a tad more expensive.) I agree that the legare reed won't last any longer for a beginner than a cheap reed. Reeds are very much a matter of taste and she won't know what she likes until she has been playing a couple years. Start a little too soft. The Hite premier will work with a 2 1/2 Rico or a 2 Van Dorn. Personally, I hate the Ricos, but they are cheap.
Run the cloth cleaning rag through the laundry a couple of times. Once it is limp, it will more likely slide through with no problems. Silk cleaning cloths cost a little more but work very well and don't get hung up. Don't get anything that looks like a bottle brush.
Some kids practice more when they have lessons. I am not a believer in forcing kids to practice. Most of us play for fun and very few get to college on a clarinet scholorship. Don't make it less fun.
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Author: Al
Date: 2001-07-31 04:00
Mark,
I've got four older clarinets with wraparound register keys.
None of them has the tube.
And I do believe that keeping the water out is an important function of the key.
Al
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-07-31 04:11
The ID, length, protrusion into the bore, internal shape, et al. have a marked effect on the clarinet. I was right there when my son's tubes where set up and a shortening of less than a mm make an incredible difference in playability. There is an "hor glass" shaped register tube sold by Alvin Swinwy & Andy Chrisanti that follow the dimesions of Hans Moennig's design and supposedly help with the intonation. Abe Galper has a replacement key/tube combination to lengthen the tube to help with some deficiencies.
I have also seen wrap-around keys with the tubes on a number of clarinets. Keeping condensation out of the register hole may be a side effect, especially with a direct-action (simple lever) key on the bottom, but acoustically that tube makes a huge difference.
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Author: Jim
Date: 2001-07-31 04:13
The only "stupid question" is one unasked.
Anji is right about the sounds that emminate from a beginning clarinetist. Patience is definitely needed here. One of my teachers constantly told us to tell our parents that this is not like buying a radio. One day you'll be listening and decide that it sounds pretty good!
The reed position Micaela speaks of is crucial, and sometimes difficult for a child to get right.
Pad the thumbrest either with a commercial pad or a piece of plastic tubing slipped over it. The weight of the horn is brutal on a child's thumb. (I remember holding it between my thumb and index finger. That worked until I learned "B" .
I'll disagree mildly with Jim and suggest an expected practice time each day. This should be short at first and gradually legnthen to perhaps a half hour a day. I would not push it on lesson days. You have made a financial commitment to her musical education, and she should make a time commitment to it as well. Practice can be made more interesting by varying the material as she becomes more accomplished.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2001-07-31 04:27
Here's my $.02.
1. Teacher. If your daughter is really interested and can't wait for school (and you can afford it), try to find her a good private teacher. She'll have a little head start on most of the other kids (and 1st chair is good for the ego) and won't develop any bad habits. Her problems playing at home may be from the mouthpiece or the reed or the instrument or they could simply be that she isn't blowing properly. Unless you have a player at home or can find her a good beginner's teacher, it's probably better to let her wait for school to start.
2. Mouthpiece. I agree with the others who have recommended a good *beginner's* mouthpiece. In fact, I think the mouthpiece is more important than the clarinet at this stage. Both the Hite Premier and Fobes Debut belong in this category. My daughter started a few years ago and we got her lessons at the St. Louis Symphony music school with an outstanding teacher for beginners (and advanced players for that matter). This teacher recommended the Hite mouthpiece. I have since played several Hites and a few Fobes and find each to be pretty uniform. I would recommend a Hite to begin with. I find it to have less resistance (i.e., to blow more easily) making it possible for your daughter to have a pleasing tone from the beginning. After about two years, our daughter's "chops" developed to the point that she had outgrown the Hite and then the Fobes was perfect.
If you find a teacher and your teacher has a recommendation follow it -- unless the teacher recommends a Vandoren B45. In this case, find a new teacher. The B45 is a terrible choice for a beginning child. It is far too resistant (hard to blow) even with a soft reed. Too many kids have given up the instrument in frustration because a (usually brass playing) band director forced this mouthpiece on them. (It has a reputation as a "best seller.") It may be a perfectly good mouthpiece for a developed player, but, for a beginning child, it is too hard to play. The name of the game here is a nice sound without excessive effort. (A note: You will simply have to choose a mouthpiece at this stage. Your daughter is in no position to be able to try out a bunch of different ones to decide which works best. Trust me here, you cannot go wrong with either a Hite or a Fobes.)
3. Reeds. Our daughter's teacher recommended Rico Royal reeds. I think they are a good choice for a beginner. They are relatively inexpensive and of reasonable quality for someone at your daughter's level. You should probably get a couple of #1 1/2's to start with but, particularly with the Hite mouthpiece, your daughter will likely outgrow them and need a #2 fairly early on so don't buy too many at first. I would avoid professional grade reeds for the time being. They cost more (and kids have a tendency to break reeds at first) but more importantly they may be stiffer (harder to blow) than a Rico Royal with the same strength number. If you have a private teacher who tells you otherwise, however, listen to him/her. The teacher will be working with your child and can tell what kind of reed will work best (at least if s/he has passed the B45 test). Mitchell Lurie reeds are also for beginners.
By the way, you didn't mention whether the reed your daughter used at home was the same one she used at school. If it was not the same reed, try another one. There is a surprising amount of variation in stiffness among reeds, even those that are the same brand and have the same strength number.
4. The instrument. You have a gotten your daughter a fine student clarinet. Assuming she was trying to play the open note, its unlikely that the instrument was the cause of her difficulty. On the other hand, if she was pressing any of the keys or trying to cover any of the holes, that might explain her problems. If you get her a teacher, it would be a good idea to ask the teacher to (put on his/her own mouthpiece and) play the instrument to make sure all the pads seal tightly and it is in reasonable adjustment. Since a beginner doesn't know how things are supposed to be, s/he has no basis for determining when something is wrong. It is always a shame when a child gives up the instrument because: (1) it is too hard to blow, (2) the child assumes that is the nature of the instrument, and (3) the real problem is the reed or the mouthpiece or the instrument. You didn't say whether you bought her a brand new instrument or a used one. (If the latter, the store probably checked it out.) In either case, however, there could be a problem not apparent to the naked eye. The best way to test is to have an experienced player put it through its paces.
5. The swab. It is VERY important not to try to pull a stuck swab through the instrument. The tube may give before the swab does (or you could even damage the plastic) and that could prove expensive. As others have noted, silk swabs (around $8.50 mail order) are least likely to catch, then cloth swabs. The chamois (or faux chamois) type are the worst for this. Make sure the swab is flowing freely (not bunched together) when you start. You can buy swabs with pulls on both ends in case they get stuck in the instrument. Or you could simply sew a fabric pull on the other end of your daughter's swab to make it easier to back out.
(Mark C., if you read this. I have two old clarinets with wrap around keys. Neither has a tube protruding into the bore. The "protruberances" are on the outside of the instrument in both cases. Ditto for a metal clarinet I have with a normal register key. I agree, however, that the purpose of the tube is more for tuning and to prevent "grunting" than to prevent condensation from coming out the register key (though it used to do just that on my metal clarinet.)
6. The "fuzzy pipe cleaners." These are called "dampits." IMHO, they assure that moisture will stay inside the instrument (can't imagine why anyone would want that in a plastic horn) and provide a fine breeding ground for germs and mold. My recommendation is that you leave them in their wrapper and store them somewhere (just in case you have to return the clarinet ;^( ).
Best regards as you give your daughter the gift of music.
jnk
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-07-31 04:39
Jack,
I had the pleasure of completely cataloging and photgraphing Abe Galper's clarinet and flute collection (about 250 rare instruments from the late 1700s to mid 1900s) and saw a fair number w/ wraparound register keys and tubes.
Most of his collection is now at The Band Museum. I really wanted his mint Romero system signed by Lefevbre, but he kept that one ;^(
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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2001-07-31 13:44
Regarding the swab, it also may make a difference as to which direction you pull it through the instrument. It is usually easier to get it past the tube on the inside if you pull the swab from the top to bottom of the upper joint.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-07-31 15:21
FWIW, I don't think anything was (principally) designed in/on the Clarinet to avoid the flow of saliva out of tone holes, etc. Heck, I see some kids who get a drip now & then out of their bells! Best to all, mw
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Author: Azzacca
Date: 2001-07-31 19:42
I'm impressed that your daughter was able to get sound out at all when she had little or no previous experience. It took a friend of mine recently over 30 minutes to get a sqeak. Once she finally figured out what she was doing, then she was much better. Course she hasn't picked up the clarinet since then, because she's in transition of moving from Texas back home here in Minnesota.
As for fluids running out the clarinet, I have had drips coming out the bell forever - another good reason to dry the clarinet well. Ok, so it usually takes about 30-45 minutes before it happens, but it does eventually happen (about the same time my mouth gives out... go figure). I always swab from the "indented end" to the "pointy end" of each section, and from the bottom to top on the ones with no difference. I don't suggest getting a leather/chamois swab, as they get stiff after a couple of uses.
I had never used anything but Rico Regulars, until I picked up the clarinet again after 10 years. I went through about 1/quarter and had a backup... it was what was available from the band teacher and I rarely had time outside of school to seek out a good music shop. Now I'm usuing Vandorens and have discoverd they have a much better sound, once broken in. For learning the clarinet, I see nothing wrong with the Ricos, but I would suggest getting a variety of reed strengths (perhaps one or two of each 1, 1.5, 2, and 2.5) just to see what gives your daughter the best sound. Good sound is what it's all about after all; that and having fun and enjoying yourself!
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Author: Meri
Date: 2001-07-31 22:02
Ruby:
These are very good questions, and you have found a great place to ask them.
<<Stupid question #2: Kathy was pulling the cloth through the barrels of the clarinet to dry it after our initial experimental session and the cloth became stuck in the upper barrel. I backed the cloth out and found that the cloth couldn't go through the upper part of the barrel because of a protuberance on the inside near the top. What is the purpose of the protuberance? It is covered by a key mechanism on the lower outside of the instrument. (sorry for my lack of clarinet terminology). >>
Check whether she is unfolding the swab fully. Sometimes beginners (and occasionally, even more advanced students) do not, and it gets stuck in the instrument. Also, some types of clothes are much more likely to get stuck than others; a good cotton or silk swab is much better than those chamois cloths, and way better than the "big pipe cleaner" things that are supposed to be designed for the same purpose. You can either buy one or make them with a flat shoelace and a square about 8" x 8".
Also, encourage her to listen to good clarinet recordings. One that I know beginners like is the Clarinet Evergreens by the Budapest Clarinet Quintet on the Naxos label. It will do wonders for the sound concept, something very few beginners seem to have when learning to play an instrument, because she is more likely to be able to associate what she is learning to do with the kind of sound she is producing.
Meri
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-08-01 08:21
If she can play on one but not on another its either the reed too har (for the mouthpiece) or there is something wrong with the instrument, say a pad leaking. Most new instruments have leaks of some sort until they are properly serviced/set up prior to sale, but probably this is rarely done.
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Author: Dee
Date: 2001-08-05 02:45
Al wrote:
>
> Mark,
> I've got four older clarinets with wraparound register keys.
> None of them has the tube.
> And I do believe that keeping the water out is an important
> function of the key.
>
Notice that with the wrap around register key, it does not sit down flush on the wood but instead on a metal piece that stands off a bit for the clarinet. Why would they do that if not for intonation? My guess it is the same principle as the register tube that extends into the clarinet on our current instruments.
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