 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Sue B
Date: 2001-07-29 04:13
Well everytime I read posts about mouthpieces and ligatures it is pretty clear that the stock Buffet mouthpieces and ligatures are not highly thought of.
In addition, even though the thumbrest is adjustable it is still way too low for most people.
We pay pretty good money for these instruments and I want to know if there is anyway we can get Buffet to listen to us.
Perhaps they could just stop being in the mouthpiece business since it obviously is a weak point maybe they could just include a Vandoren M-13 or something. At least they wouldn't be getting lambasted for that. I'm sure they could include a reasonable ligature setup.
I know all mouthpieces and artists are not created equal and what is good for one person may not be good for another but at least include something to get you going. Most of us pay over 1200.00 for our instruments even used I expect a bit more for that money.
I think they ought to take the thumbrest a lot more seriously too that adjustable thumbrest is a joke. A bunch of people are swapping them out and having it moved because it is just way too low out of the box.
They sponsor pro's I'm sure they could give them some advice on these issues.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-07-29 04:28
Sue B wrote:
> I'm sure they could include a
> reasonable ligature setup.
The plain Buffet ligature is just fine. The rest of your gripes are well thought out, though.
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Author: Edog
Date: 2001-07-29 07:08
You know the simplest answer to your problems with buffet, don't buy buffet. It is ridiculous that many feel that buffet is the only option for a serious clarinet player. . People need to recognize the other great instruments on the market, several of wich I know are at least a standard to the buffet models. It also needs to be understood that nstrument manufacturing is a business and the best way to get buffet's attention is to make them lose money.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-07-29 13:51
Many Buffet clarinets are now shipped with RICO mouthpieces, that is why B&H bought Rico (and reeds, and more ...).
I can't think of a single manufacturer who's mouthpiece I would use personally use, except for Selmer with the C85 which does work well with Selmer clarinets.
I agree with Mark C., the Buffet ligature is just fine.
Best,
mw
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Author: Sue B
Date: 2001-07-29 14:28
I guess I'll have to try the ligature it's still in the plastic with the mouthpiece never even tried it.
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Author: William
Date: 2001-07-29 15:22
Since most clarinetists prefer to select their own mouthpiece, lig and reed set-ups, I would prefer that companies like Buffet, Leblanc, Yamaha, and (but not least) Selmer, sell their pro instruments without those stock versions that we discard anyway. The reason that they do not provide a quality mp with their instruments is because they realize that no one mouthpiece is "right" for everyone. So my question is--why provide one at all?? Keep the "ok" stock ligatures (even Greg Smith doesn't provide ligs with his mps), but forget the stock mouthpiecies and maybe throw in a quality reed case instread--or a years subscription to the International Clarinet Association.
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Author: glenn kantor
Date: 2001-07-29 17:32
Finally, someone has addressed one of my pet peeves with Buffet (and other manufacturers) about including a "stock" mouthpiece that is usually so unplayable that it could do harm to students who try to make this mouthpiece their regular one.(of course, those students who have the guidance of a good teacher would immediately discard this mouthpiece) Why don't these major manufacturers include (as was mentioned before) a decent reed case,a set of screwdrivers, an extra swab, or even better- a quality reed trimmer or reed resurfacer? Another possibility would also be a mail in certificate good for a set amount of $ to be used for reeds, accessories, etc..How about it Buffet, Selmer, Yamaha, Leblanc- are you listening?
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Author: Suzanne
Date: 2001-07-29 20:31
Here's another vote for not including a mouthpiece at all.
If you are serious enough about clarinet to spend the $$ on an R13, you are probably picky about your mouthpiece too.
One of my students got an R13 as a Christmas gift, and I didn't see her for about a month or so, and when I did, she didn't understand why her new, professional clarinet didn't sound very good. (It was because she was playing the mouthpiece that came with it.) So, we got her on a Vandoren, no problem, not very difficult to fix!
My Buffets are great instruments and yes, I had to have the thumbrest moved, but so what? I love my 'nets. They are wonderful instruments.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-07-29 21:17
It would be nice for parents if Buffet would upgrade their mouthpieces on all their clarinets, from plastic to Prestige. Adult and experienced players don't use the stock mouthpieces anyway, but most kids don't know what junk the mouthpieces are until their teacher (if they have one) tells them to get a new one. Then the parent says, "I just spent $$$ on that clarinet. Didn't it come with a mouthpiece?"
It wouldn't be a big deal for Buffet to offer a better mouthpiece. We're not talking all the way to Greg Smith---maybe just in the neighborhood of a good Vandoren (like the M13 Lyre that's made for the R-13). Even if they upped their price it would be good for the encouragement of the young player who doesn't have a clue he/she needs a better mouthpiece after spending mega bucks for the clarinet.
Just a pet peve that apparently is shared with all of the above.
Leblanc does supply a Larry Combs with their Opus and Symphonie VII. And, even the K10M is better than the Buffet stock mouthpiece you get with the Prestige and the Festival (upper level Buffets).
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Author: Erika
Date: 2001-07-29 23:42
My R13 didn't come with a mouthpiece. It came from Wiener Music co. NY. But it did come with a silver plated mouthpiece cover. But if my R13 came with a mouthpiece, I would have thrown it out anyway.
The most common method for a student like myself to upgrade their equipment is first to upgrade to a good mouthpiece and then upgrade to a good clarinet. By the time a student is serious enough to put down the money for an instrument like an R13, they should, or have probably already upgraded from a student mouthpiece.
But back to the gripes about R13s, I would also agree that it is simply a waste to sell a professional instrument with a bottom of the line student mouthpiece. I think the most logical way to handle the situation is to simply not sell mouthpieces with clarinets like that. Selling a costomer a professional clarinet with a horrible mouthpiece is as ridiculous as selling a professional violin with horrible bow!
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-07-30 02:28
Erika is _correct_. Fred Weiner does not include a mouthpiece with his discounted price clarinets. Of course, you can buy a mouthpiece.
Hey guys, lighten up. Buffet Crampon a Cie aka Boosey & Hawkes hasn't had any significant price increase in years! Certainly the Buffet R-13 is selling at all-time lows for the last 10 years. I bought one in 1994 & it cost more at WW&BW!
$1499 this past summer from several dealers! Who cares if we get something we don't need?
What? You want a price reduction concurrent with "NO MOUTHPIECE". Aw cmon .... lets get real! Buffet will move the thumbrest up, remove the mouthpiece, check the market place and THEN decide to move up the wholesale price of goods which will get you a big fat increase in price.
MY grandpappy used to say ..... "don't bitch with yer belly full!:
Best to all,
mw
PS We are all spoiled. Talk to the other woodwinds players about price. Then talk to the brass players. If you want a heart attach, then go talk to a Cello player who's instrument can cost more than a middle class house!
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Author: Sue B
Date: 2001-07-30 03:33
Gee come on mw when you spend $1500 on a clarinet there should be certain things that are expected.
You get a barrel too that you could replace but B & H seems to throw in one that you don't immediately dump. Why not the mouthpiece?
It would actually be very good marketing for Vandoren to get involved in. If you got your R-13 with a Vandoren you would probably at least try it. If it was reasonable you might even play it...gasp!! If something happened to it you might consider another Vandoren as a replacement.
I see some upside for Vandoren - they would get $$$ from B & H and maybe a lifetime customer. Then B & H can concentrate on what they do well create nice clarinets.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-07-30 04:03
[[ I have no ax to grind here, I'm just terlling you like it is ... ]]
Sue, please re-read what I wrote. The $1500, I think, will prove to be a bargain in a very short period of time. The U.S. dollar is currently doing so well against the Euro (& Franc) that no price increase have been possible ... the Euro has lost 20% in the last year. You won't do much better in France because discounting isn't rampant there.
I am a good consumer, I take advantage of what the market offers me & recognize the rest for what it is. I try & be very realistic. I practice that as the owner of a business ever day .....
You guys seem to have forgotten we are in a RECESSION in the U.S.! The rest of the world, Europe mostly, are suffering because of our economic downturn.
If Boosey read this, they would just shake their heads. [[ ..... not everyone had heard about the 4.1 million "inventory" loss they took in Illinois. They are currently paying rent at 2 locations .... prices go up from here. ]]
Best,
mw
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Author: Jim
Date: 2001-07-30 04:11
Muncy too ships R13s without a mouthpiece. There was no lig or cap either. In fact, the case was empty except for the instrument, warranty, and case keys. The instrument IS a good value in comparison to similar offerings from the rest of the "big 4" as well as in comparison to other instruments. I guess even here, volume counts. How many oboes or bassoons are sold?
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Author: willie
Date: 2001-07-30 04:38
I like the Idea of no mouthpieces on a new clarinet. I have a whole drawer full of "stock" mouthpieces that are pure junk. Some won't even speak at all even with my best reed and lig on it, and I'm USED to using junk sometimes. I can't think of a quicker way to discourage a bigginer than a horn that won't honk.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-07-30 05:02
Whoa ... OK. lets wait a sec here. Boosey & Hawkes, N.A is the _Wholesaler_. for Buffet products. They sell a product to dealers. The dealer sets the street price, OK? [[ bear with me, this is the same throughout the woirld ... Boosey N.A. was picked but as an example ]]
NOW, when Buffet issues list prices, etc. they do so for the COMPLETE horn w/case included. For the Buffet R-13 - that's with mouthpiece, silver ligature, silver cap, cork grease, Buffet cloth swab, and one reed (usually a #2 Buffet). I believe the case can be returned by Dealer for a $40 credit, or that was the deal at one point in time [at least that it was very large NY retailer told me].
If the Dealer pulls all the little chotchkie stuff back & consumer ends up with a naked horn --- Bell, L/J. U/J, Barrel & Case & NOTHING else ..... WHO IS MAKING THE MONEY ? (or additional markup by pulling items that can be resold)
This has NOTHING to do with Boosey & Hawkes. This is nothing but a _retailer_ shaving profit points on (an already discounted) instrument.
COMPRENDE?
[[ Pretty Slick --- The Manufacturer is also the Wholesaler, too. They also own the Finance Company which Floor Plans the Dealers --- so they aree the Ban, too ]]
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-07-30 11:22
No mouthpiece is a bit like buying a car without tyres - buy your own later, selecting between road handling, quiet opeation, smooth ride, etc.
There is general agreement that C85 is good, and that the Buffet M/P is bad. So I agree that Buffet could do better. The price difference in manufacturing a good and bad mouthpiece with accurate modern machinery must be minimal.
The adjustable thumb rest is none other than lousy design, as is the LH low G# key option on Selmer's Prologue. Shame on them both!
It costs so little more to design something well, perhaps an few hours thought from a practical, analytical player with a mind for mechanical engineering. Cost to manufacture is probably much the same as for the junk item.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-07-30 11:27
And even more shame on them for failing to respond quickly to what is expressed in sites such as this.
What great PR it would be to acknowledge a problem on forums and give an anticipated correction date. I suppose they are scared that those with the crook models will want free correction, and rightly so.
If these instruments were cars and safety was an issue plastered over the media the attitude would be different. So we just have to put up with manufacturers' complacency and arrogance.
Perhaps buy Howarth. Do they have any problems?
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-07-30 11:30
Gordon (NZ) wrote:
> It costs so little more to design something well, perhaps an
> few hours thought from a practical, analytical player with a
> mind for mechanical engineering. Cost to manufacture is
> probably much the same as for the junk item.
If it were easy and it sold well they'd do it. Clarinetists, being (apparently) some of the most conservative musicians there are, seem to resist any innovation at all. If B & H / Leblanc / Selmer / Yamaha / etc. could make more money / sell more clarinets by improving a design they would. Every time they try something new they get lambasted by the players, so they stick with the tried & true. Very seldom does anything change on the base instrument because of <b>our</b> attitude.
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Author: Roger
Date: 2001-07-30 11:54
I am going to be the contrarian. In 1984 I bought an R-13 A clarinet. The mouthpiece that came with it was outstanding. My teacher (Dr. Frank Kowalksy of FSU) said it was unusally. We sent it off for fine tuning to an expert in Michigan. He did something to it, but he did so little that he did not even "sign" his name on the mouthpiece. This was an unusualy mouthpiece. I still use it today and it is my mouthpiece of choice.
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Author: HAT
Date: 2001-07-30 14:52
It is easy to complain about lots of things, but the fact is if you want a customized clarinet with exactly the thumbrest you want and exactly the mouthpiece you want, you will have to pay for it.
The idea of getting a world-class musical instrument for under $2,000 is unthinkable for almost any instrument besides the clarinet. If you don't believe me, just ask. My neighbor paid over $8,000 for his horn. Monette trumpets now cost $5,000. Brannen flutes are near $10,000 and you have to wait over 2 years to get one. Need I go on?
For very little money, you can take your new R-13 and get any thumbrest you want, any mouthpiece you want, etc. Would you rather pay twice that upfront so that you personally can get what most others DON'T want or need?
People are quick to bash Buffet, especially those who have chosen the (often quite decent but always more expensive) alternatives (I don't consider Patricola, the only cheaper 'professional' clarinet, a usable alternative, by the way).
David Hattner, NYC
www.northbranchrecords.com
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-07-30 18:05
Roger, the individual your mouthpiece was sent ffor refacing in MI _might_ have been "SCOTTIE" as he is called by his many disciples, nee Robert Scott Woodwinds ... purveyors of fine clarinet poly-barrels, refaced mouthpieces & very excellent clarinet repair & restoration work. He is known to all who have frequented Interlochen Arts Camp over the years, as he heads the Repair Dep't located in the woods nearby to Traverse City, MI in Summer sessions.(My daughter has visited him this summer at least 2X --- she & her friends swear an oath of allegiance to "Scottie").
Gordon, those _Howarth Horns_ are **pretty expensive**. I certainly can't buy one for $1499! Gee, I don't think we can even close in the hundreds of dollars. (beside before I went to Howart I would go to Eaton!)
My point to all is for all of us to use some basic common & ECONOMIC sense; not to get frustrated over something that has no monetary value or concern (it's something that's supposed to be there, & it is).
Good luck to all. If the Euro turns this year, we could see significantly "amplified" pricing for sure! (yes, HIGHER PRICING --- many of us don't know what's good until its gone!)
Best,
mw
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-07-31 11:34
Mark wrote, "If it were easy and it sold well they'd do it". Come on, surely there is nobody who thinks that adjustable thumb rest is well designed. It adjusts from a bad position for most people to a much worse position. It would be easy to screw it on a sensible distance higher up the instrument, even though it would still be a rather rumpty design of rest.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-07-31 16:37
I hate the thumb rest design. But, it's no better on Leblanc Opus and Symphonie VII (both more expensive than the R-13)--or my new Buffet Festival (identical thumb rest to the R-13).
Actually, the old style thumb rest that was stationary was fine with an added Tom Thumb cushion or something of the like.
Ah, innovation. Sometimes it's more than enough.
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Author: Sue B
Date: 2001-07-31 17:08
Well this was a fun topic if nothing else.
Lot's of opinions and good dialogue.
Love this board.
BTW - I am using a Kooiman Thumbrest because the pain I was having from the stock thumbrest was pretty bad. I couldn't even hold it for 2 hours of rehearsal let alone play it for 2 hours.
I tried the Claricord which helped but was not enough and my hand just felt wierd using the stock thumbrest. Plus the pain was bad.
I am using a Vandoren B45 and will probably never try the stock mouthpiece. I am interested in perhaps trying another mouthpiece in a bit.
I tend to be too much of a tinkerer so I am kind of holding steady for now and trying to improve technique etc.
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Author: Meri
Date: 2001-07-31 22:21
Actually, why doesn't every clarinet manufacturer, no matter what grade of instrument, either not include a mouthpiece (in the case of professional level instruments) or, and this is preferable in student- and intermediate-grade instruments, include a good-quality mouthpiece?
Meri
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-07-31 23:16
Why? Simple. Because no 2 Manufacturers are alike ! Thank heavens for that --it's the spice of life! Best, mw
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Author: Meri
Date: 2001-07-31 23:36
But--at least it compensates for ignorance by some music teachers and parents of music students. At least give the beginners a fair chance, so they don't have to deal with problems they are not aware of.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-08-01 01:27
If we start standardizing everything, everything starts tasting like Vanilla. AND, there is nothing wrong with Vanilla ... . (but)
Standardization of equipment would definitely better the student by overcoming the inadequacies of that Teacher who doesn't know (or care) better.
But, then THE company (which makes the mouthpiece) would just get complacent because the only mouthpiece that anyone would buy would be their "5RV" & they would slowly see the design mold slip away & errata in dimenions would take hold ! (hey wasn't that the subject of Roger's & others comments on the Klarionet List in another Thread ?)
Ultimately, differences & competition between Brands & their products breed better products (although some times there may be a real lull in years in terms real improvements)
Best,
mw
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Author: Josh
Date: 2001-08-01 02:45
There are some fantastic points being made by everyone here, and I think really that there isn't any one solution that will make everybody happy. Some of us are all for including a great mp, and others are staunchly in favor of not including one at all and getting your own. As much as we may not like it, it really DOES all come back to business...Buffet (and Selmer and Leblanc and Yamaha and Howarth and Eaton and Patricola and every other clarinet maker in the universe, for that matter) is/are going to what is best for them from a business standpoint...is it REALLY worth it for Buffet to upgrade mouthpieces with every clarinet? God knows I and many others wish they would, however, realistically, when we buy these horns...we already HAVE great mouthpieces. I agree that it's a shame that students who perhaps have generous family members get these wonderful clarinets that have absolutely atrocious mouthpieces and don't realize that they suck. That's what we're here for...to help them. *deep breath* And...end of rant God, you guys rock...this is almost as good as a real-life round-table
Happy clarinetting!
BTW, what exactly is so "unusable" about Patricola instruments? I own several, and I love them all. (Their EH outplays any Loree or Laubin I've ever touched.) To each their own, I guess
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Author: David Kinder
Date: 2001-08-01 03:23
Here's my PRACTICAL business solution: Just upgrade the student clarinet mouthpieces to something than stock - like Vandoren. Don't include a moutpiece with a professional R-13 Buffet (or other comparable model) and have the dealer offer a discount on any new mouthpiece in the store. Most dealers probably already do this.
Artley/Armstrong has done this for quite sometime. One of their upper-end intermediate clarinets (no pros with artley) includes a Vandoren B45.
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Author: HAT
Date: 2001-08-01 16:11
Re: Patricola, not a usable alternative because Buffet clarinets are simply far superior in ever respect, and only slightly more expensive. Not enough $$$ difference to make it worth the trouble you inherit with the horn. Just my opinion.
David Hattner
www.nortbranchrecords.com
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Author: Robert
Date: 2001-08-09 04:14
I don't know if its so much the quality of the mouthpeice, its just like on my R-13 Vintage, and other R-13s, the mpc they give has a very very open tip, the only way I can even see using it is for jazz. I didn't think the thumbrest was all that bad... but its low enough were I can't see anyone adjusting it to be that much lower.
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