 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Valencio
Date: 2022-05-24 06:49
hi, i'm a mid age beginner for clarinet.
I set up a youtube channel to record my progress: https://youtu.be/k8wiCCXGf0U
I have no real teacher. I need your advice and supervision.
Thank you~
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-05-24 10:58
Hi Valencio,
I think you are doing a great job. You are managing to remember a lot of fingerings and your clarinet is working nicely and sounds in tune to me.
I think you could just keep doing exactly what you are doing and enjoying it and you will have a great time.
What beginner's book are you using? If you have a good book with a good fingering chart that will help you a lot.
Also I'd be interested to know what reed and mouthpiece you are using as getting that right can make things much more comfortable for the player.
When I look at your playing, I am wondering if you are looking for tips on what to improve. If you are, then my first thought is to ask whether you are articulating with your tongue or your diaphragm. What I mean is, when you play a series of separated notes, as you are in the video, do you use a separate breath for each note, starting and stopping with your diaphragm? Or do you use one long continuous breath and start and stop the reed with the tip of your tongue?
I think from the video that you are using your diaphragm, and if you are, that will get quite uncomfortable after a while. Switching to using the tongue for articulation takes a lot of time and practise but it is great once you get the to be able to do it. It took me three years to learn to do it, so it does take quite a lot of practise.
There is a book called "Learn as you play clarinet" by Peter Wastell that is very good for learninging that, and getting the fundementals right from the very beginning.
Does that help at all?
Good luck and well done for making such a great start.
Best wishes,
Jennifer
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-05-24 14:17
Hi Valencio,
I watched your other videos, and I really think you are doing a wonderful job. It will be very much easier for you to learn because of all your experience in classical guitar and it looks to me as though you have a piano in your house too, is that right? Having a lot of musical background really helps very much .
I really like how you keep the camera on a tripod so it doesn't wobble, and the gentle piano music on your first video was lovely too. Your videos are very relaxing to watch.
I wondered - have you learned yet from the youtube videos about the importance of putting the reed in your mouth and sucking it a bit to get it wet before you put it on the mouthpiece? The reed has to be wet to work, so if you are not doing that, then it will really make things a lot easier.
I also wondered if you had thought about getting a soft ligature instead of the metal one that you are using? These Rovner ones are much easier to play and very inexpensive: https://www.rovnerproducts.com/dark-ligature
I started playing four years ago in 2018 so I am also an adult learner but I am currently playing grade 2 fairly fluently and trying a little bit to manage grade 5 pieces.
If you would like to ask me any questions I would be really happy to watch your videos and try to help. This early stage of learning was very recent for me and so I can remember what it felt like, and that I needed to do to get over the hurdles.
You might also like this youtube channel which is great for beginners: https://www.youtube.com/c/ClarinetMentors
and this one which is just really fun:
https://www.youtube.com/c/earspasm
I look forward to hearing more from you.
Best wishes,
Jennifer
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-05-24 18:02
Of course the real answer is to get a real teacher. Someone in the room with you could correct issues on the spot and actually HEAR how you sound in the room. Conversely you could hear how she/he sounds in the room and you would have a better mental image of a good sound. All helpful things.
A agree with SunnyDaze on the idea of connecting your breath. The last five notes of "Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star" is more what a full phrase should sound like. When you ended that it sounded as though you were a little winded. I might make a big leap here but I think you need to get used to using more air. Take a deep breath and do the first seven notes of "Twinkle" all in one go at a really good volume. You articulate individual notes by lightly placing the tip or your tongue on the tip of the reed to stop the vibrations, then removing it quickly to allow the next note to start. Done correctly you get the sound "TAH." Done without enough pressure to stop the vibrations, or without releasing the reed fast enough, you get a "THOO."
Once you get the idea of using more air, you can begin to use it like a violin bow to achieve dynamics (more bow to play louder, less bow for softer). It might sound better getting louder for those first seven note of "Twinkle" and then starting louder and getting softer for the next seven. Dynamics are a huge part of playing musically.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2022-05-25 05:27
Says video isn't available anymore.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
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Author: Valencio
Date: 2022-05-25 18:28
Hi Sunny Daze, thank you for such a sincerely reply.
Yes I have a method book, it is "Clarinet Basics" by Arne Schwarzholz. I think this book is friendly to beginners. I just found the Peter Wastell's book on the internet. It looks well organized, I will study it seriously.
My clarinet cost me 2000rmb(about $300), maybe it is the cheapest of the clarinet make of wood. As a amateur guitar player, I have some music friends. I just knew I can put more money on the mouth piece and reed. I bought one, and I will try.
I have many hobbies, one of them is soccer referee. So I think I know how to use tongue to blow the whisle. Of course, the tongue has much more complex tasks on the clarinet. When I was playing the songs in the video, I was sure I was using tongue to start and stop a note, but the effect may not be very good. Please continue to give me reviews to the videos later.
Thanks again! I'll keep doing it!
Best wishes,
Valencio
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Author: Valencio
Date: 2022-05-25 18:45
Thank you Paul Aviles, I really appreciate it.
As I mentioned above, I know the using of my tongue is much more complex than blowing a referee whisle. But I did use one whole breath for a full phrase in "Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star"
I will try to make it natural and show some dynamic effect.
You know in China, we are living under an unreasonable pandemic control. It's not convenient to have a real teacher. Fortunately, I can send my videos to some friends including you to get some advices:)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-05-25 19:45
Great to hear that this is a way around the restrictions on people getting together in person. Covid has made learning much more challenging.
I'd add quickly that for the most part you actually do not end a note with the tongue (too abrupt). Stopping a note comes from holding back at your belly (stop blowing). This gives the note a natural taper (much nicer sounding). But this points to the most basic but also most important part of wind playing. You need to keep the pressure (pushing from your belly) through a phrase, whether there is a note or not. My advice about articulation is a description of what happens all at once between two notes played in succession (like the first two notes of Twinkle). It is better to think of articulating that moment with the idea that you "place the tongue" on the reed and then immediately withdraw to start the reed vibrating again for the next note. "Hitting" the reed with the tongue is too violent and leads to a knocking sort of sound between notes......not good. Just wanted to prevent that from developing since most of us refer to that as an "attack."
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-05-25 19:47
Hi Valencio,
It's lovely to know a bit more about you. I think that being a football referree will help a lot, as you must have strong lungs for projecting your voice too. I think that having assertive behaviour and good projection helps.
That's great that you are already using your tongue to stop the reed. I couldn't tell from the video whether you were or not, but it's great that you are.
I completely understand what you mean about the difficulty of being under lockdown still. I am stuck at home with chronic health problems, including long covid, and so I am also learning the clarinet without face-2-face lessons. I'm really happy to try and help on here if you would like to post videos. I would enjoy the company.
I do sometimes have video lessons over the internet with a teacher and that can be really helpful. One of the perks of video lessons is that you can ask for lessons from someone who is anywhere in the world, and that really opens up big opportunities.
Would it be okay to ask what kind of clarinet and mouthpiece and reed you have? I'm just curious, as hearing about other people's instruments is always very interesting.
Best wishes,
Jennifer
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Author: Valencio
Date: 2022-05-26 15:10
Talking about the instrument, I feel a little embarrassed.
As I mentioned above, I set a standard to seek a cheap clarinet but made of wood. So I got one for $350.
When I received my instrument, I saw the brand logo is Buffet E13. Of course, it must be fake. You know in China, intellectual property is not so respected, especially in recent years. So I can only tell you my instrument has no brand, but maybe worth the price.
By buying the instrument, I got ten reeds for free. It's a cheap Chinese brand, and you must never have heard of it.
When I know the importance of the mouse piece, I've already ordered a new one which is Vandoren B40. When I receive it, I will make a video.
I just upload a new video for the day 12, it's Scarborough Fair.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjsnQs9GN-k
I really appreciate your company:)
Valencio
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-05-26 15:54
Hi Valencio,
Thanks for coming back again. Your new video is great. The music is very soothing to listen to, and the smooth phrases of the music where you alternate articulating the notes with legato are really lovely. I think you are a professional already. :-)
I noticed you did a really lovely thing at 1:08 in the video. Earlier in the video when you pressed the A4 key (https://www.8notes.com/clarinet/fingering/default.asp?notename=a4), you were lifting your left index finger off the F# hole to put it onto the A4 key. But at 1:08 you rocked your left index finger onto the A4 key, without removing it from the F# hole. That is considered very good work, because it allows you to alternate between the two keys quickly. That is a really good habit to get into. I have only just got there myself, and I had to have my A4 key extended in order to be able to do it, because I have really thin fingers.
I think your clarinet is really lovely and you do not need to worry about it being inexpensive. The tone sounds really nice to me, and if it is not in tune, I do not notice it. Many people start on quite broken secondhand instrument that have leaky pads and wobbly tenons and things, so your new instrument is really helping you to get off to a good start.
When you get to the end of your ten reeds, it might good to learn a bit about the hardness of reeds. It's usual to start on quite a soft reed, like a Vandoren classic 1.5 or something like that. While you are working through your set of ten, it might be useful to know that some of your reeds will be better than others. If you change reeds and it seems like nothing works any more, then just bin that reed and open another. Some reeds are just not great. There are ways to fix them, but that happens a bit later when you are more used to playing.
This is what I look like playing after four years:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9c_ctcSLTQ
I think it's lovely to be able to show what we can do, and not expect to be perfect. I reckon the journey is the fun part.
Best wishes,
Jennifer
Post Edited (2022-05-26 16:01)
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2022-05-27 05:30
Excellent job. I wouldn't have picked up on the tonguing thing until reading DunnyDaze' post. It seemed to me you were using the tongue. Are you saying "Ta" when tonguing. That is how I taught my beginners--nothing fancy. Maybe take a little less mouthpiece? Maybe not.
I know the lockdown there is very restrictive. Then again, most everyone in Canada & USA declared Covid is over a couple of months ago. With pretty much all restrictions lifted, we now have thousands of cases in Nova Scotia instead of like 15. Same everywhere over here. My wife just got Covid 3 weeks ago and isn't over it yet-- a week after her brother died from it. It is not over.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
Post Edited (2022-05-27 05:32)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-05-27 08:52
Lots of good fundamentals for only 12 days!
I would try working on the fundamental SOUND more though. It's almost impossible to HEAR all that is involved in a great clarinet sound when it is not in the room with you, but the unsupported sound comes off a a little buzzy and mid rangy. One thing to do is to make a long tone exercise out of open G. Listen for lower, more resonant aspects to come through. Play with the idea of using more air. Take a deep breath and don't hold back on the volume. Hear how that sounds vs softer sounds and see if you can get the fully tone at lower dynamics.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-05-27 17:45
Hi Valencio,
I wondered if you had seen this video? I am really enjoying trying to follow the video at the moment because it gets my fundemental skills better without me having be run ragged doing loads of fingerings.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vsDULB-qXo&t=96s
Jen
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Author: Valencio
Date: 2022-05-28 14:01
Oh Tom, I'm sorry to know that about Covid. Hope it will be over soon.
Thanks for your recommand.
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2022-05-28 15:24
Valencio, I think you are doing great.
I second what has been said about tonguing. Think of "removing" the tongue to start a note. The air stream should be continuous, without stopping between notes. I think you are doing this, but think "gentle", or "da" - like a little baby. The note has a shape, even short notes. Focus on the shape, and helping the beginning and end with your tongue.
I think your tone is good for a beginner. It's strong and full. I think you have a good concept - probably from guitar. The throat tones (G,A) have less resonance because there isn't as much air resonating, so it's harder to sound good. "Long" notes (with more fingers down) have better resonance and are more stable, because more air is moving inside the horn. It's like playing strings on guitar. When you play "up the neck" the string is shorter so the tone is softer and doesn't sustain as well. The open or long string is louder and has more sustain. With woodwinds, the air in the horn interacts with the air in your mouth and with the reed, making it easier to sound good when the air column is longer. Warm up by playing C (xxx|ooo) and down. Getting a good tone on longer notes is easier to learn. Also practice long tones (longer duration - 4 beats).
The "instability" is natural and will go away. You are learning to balance the horn. You are learning to develop muscle control in you embouchure. You are learning to tongue. You are learning to use your diaphragm and breath. Your jaw doesn't know where it should be. So all those muscles are uncoordinated and some are weak and will be shaky. Don't worry about it because it sounds like you know what you want. You'll have to "work out" a bit. Just don't bite the mouthpiece and reed. Get control from your embouchure, diaphragm, and air.
Maybe think of a good airstream like the whistle, but not the tongue. Refs use "DAT" or "DaaaaaaaaaaT". It's percussive because you are getting people's attention. Also, it's very tense physically. Like Paul says you want it to sound more like bowing a violin.
The horn sounds fine. The musician plays the horn. I bicycle. You can ride an old steel Schwinn and still drop the dude with the carbon fiber wonder, because the the legs and heart do all the work. I was out riding while he was shopping. If you are riding with someone at your fitness level and you are going up a mountain then you might want the lighter bike. I imagine it's like good soccer players and good cleats. Don't worry about it.
- Matthew Simington
Post Edited (2022-05-28 15:57)
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Author: Valencio
Date: 2022-05-28 16:49
hi Jen,
It's so nice of you to notice such a detail when I was pressing the A4 button. But maybe I made the same mistake in my new video
The teaching video you recommand is impressive, I will follow the channel.
And, it's great to see your elegant video. I've never imagined to have this kind of company when I post the first message here.
As I just tried a way to duet with myself (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D68G3Ms9dpU), maybe we can do the same thing in the future, that would be funny. I can also play guitar with you until my clarinet improves further.
Best wishes~
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Author: Valencio
Date: 2022-05-28 16:57
Thank you Matthew!
You are a good teacher. Your analogy with the guitar and bicycle makes a lot of sense to me.
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Author: Valencio
Date: 2022-05-31 11:03
Hi Jen,
Have you seen my message above?
I got my new mouthpiece and reed, and I compared the new one and old one in my newest video, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVOWjf-0o9s
Valencio
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-05-31 16:57
Hi Valencio,
It's great to see you again and to see the experiments that you are trying. What was your feeling about the different reed, mouthpiece and ligature setup? The choice is totally personal to you and I'd be interested to know which you prefer.
I really like how you use dynamics in your duet - the loud and soft bits. They really sound lovely. It must have been great fun to film yourself and film yourself again in a pair. That is brilliant.
I see that you are using the Peter Wastell book and doing a brillant job of playing. I really hope that you enjoy it. At the rate you are going you will have finished it by the end of this week. :-)
I had my first clarinet lesson for a long time this morning, which was really good. It was over video link, but it was good to see my teacher again. Now I remember that I can't count time at all, so I have some work to do. :-)
Best wishes,
Jennifer
Post Edited (2022-05-31 19:06)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-05-31 22:58
Hi Valencio,
I just checked and you can do ABRSM performance exams from China, if that is something that you would be interested to do. It's an exam that you do by videoing yourself at home and uploading it to a server, so super-easy to do from lockdown. The accompaniment is a download that you get free with the book. It's the system I'm following so I could help you through it if that would be useful.
It follows on pretty much exactly from the end of the Peter Wastell book, and the first stage is nice and easy and has really lovely tunes to start off with. I especially like Arirang: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3XAittzDs0
I just wanted to mention in case it would be nice for you to have a path to aim for. You look like you really want to make big progress fast, and you clearly are progressing really really quickly and working very hard at it.
Best wishes,
Jennifer
Post Edited (2022-05-31 23:03)
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Author: Valencio
Date: 2022-06-02 13:38
Thanks Jen, great infomation, I've never considered about it.
I just studied ABRSM on it's official site. And the piece you recommand is really lovely. I'll think about it seriously.
Where are you from? Have you already passed several grades online?
Best wishes,
Valencio
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-06-02 17:30
Hi Valencio,
I am in the UK and I started on the ABRSM curriculum four years ago, intitally doing the exams in person. When I started learning grade 4 I realised that some of the fundemental skills were missing and that I was never going to be able to play grade 4 unless I started again from the beginning and built up from scratch with some changes in technique. I am just in the middle of doing that and am working towards grade 2 again.
I also did some music medal exams with my husband playing the accompaniment and acting as the assessor. He is about grade 4 on the cello, which is really helpful. Music medal exams are at a lower level, but need a second instrumentalist in the house.
I really like to doing video exams, espcially because I can do them whenever I am ready, rather than having to book several months in advance and be sure to be on top form on the day.
The further on I get the more I seem to value the fundemental skills, and the less I value the certificates, which is kind of strange. It like I enjoy the process more and more as time goes on.
Jen
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Author: Valencio
Date: 2022-06-06 19:02
Thank you Jen, admire you are in UK and have a cello partner.
I think maybe you cannot imagine the so-called lockdown of Chinese style. Many people cannot go out their apartment for months.
I have cooperate with cello several times. I think cello and guitar are perfect friends.
I can understand the grading technique problem you mentioned. I will try my best to build a firm basement.
Now I'm studing the note bB. On my instrument, this note is less loud than others. I don't know the reason.
Further more, when I use the more expensive mouthpiece and reed, I have more chance to get the by-product sharp sound, I don't know why...
Best wishes,
Valencio
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-06-06 21:38
Hi Valencio,
It's great to hear from you again. I see what you mean about your lockdown being so strict. That sounds hard.
Well done for having a go at Bb. That's a really interesting note on a clarinet isn't it? The reason why it is so quiet is because the vibrating air column only goes down a very short way in the clarinet, so it doesn't make a very resonant sound. The other holes further down are all open and the air is leaking out everywhere, so you can only use that tiny short column of air to create your sound, along with the vibrating air column in your mouth and chest. I find it really hard to get that note to sound in tune, let alone to sound really resonant.
When you say about the more expensive mouthpiece and reed making the sharp sound, do you mean that you get more squeaks? The thing with reeds and mouthpieces is that different reeds and mouthpieces suit different people. Just buying an expensive one doesn't necessarily mean you get one that will suit you better. (sorry - I know you spent a lot on those.)
Mouthpieces in particular are quite complicated. The main things that you need to know are how "open" it is and how long the facing is. By "open" I mean how big the gap is between the tip of the reed and the tip of the mouthpiece. The gap is measured in mm or in the chart below it is shown as 1/100mm. An open mouthpiece has a big gap and a closed mouthpiece has a small gap.
https://vandoren.fr/en/clarinet-mouthpieces-comparison/
I play a 1.05mm tip opening which is quite a closed mouthpiece, which means I don't need to squeeze the reed very hard to get a sound.
The length of the facing also matters. To measure that, you put the reed on the mouthpiece with no ligature. Then you look for the place where you can first see light between the reed and the moutpiece, and measure between that point and the tip of the mouthpiece, like this:
https://www.kurtzweilcustom.com/mouthpiece-selection.html
Usually when people buy a new mouthpiece, they would want to try 10 or 15 of them in a shop and see which suits them best. You could measure yours and tells about them and we might be able to explain what effects the measurements will have.
Reeds are also a bit complicated because in a box of ten you are likely to get 3 great ones, 4 okay ones, and 3 that will never work. So if your expensive reed is causing you problems, you could just put it to one side and then try the next one in the box. The next one might be great. It's also possible to adjust reeds, if they just need a bit of work.
I wrote a short bit of text on how to adjust reeds in this blog post below, in the paragraph starting "4. If that doesn't work, take a new reed out of the box and try it instead of the first one." It might be worth just having a look at that and checking if your reed seems to be in need of a bit of sanding.
https://lovelyoldclarinet.blogspot.com/2021/05/and-now-i-am-going-to-play-it.html
You're doing an absolutely brilliant job there. I didn't get near all this stuff for ages.
Are you not allowed our of your flat then? How long have you been stuck in?
Best wishes,
Jennifer
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-06-06 22:40
It is best to try and develop a throat Bb (middle line of staff) using vent fingerings (extra fingers that help use more of the horn for resonance). I play that note exclusively with "A" key, and octave key. To those fingers I add the second and third fingers of both hands (second and third open tone holes of both joints). The advantage of this is that it does NOT use any pinky keys so you can go to, and come from any note with this venting and it allows you to get a more resonant Bb. You still have to work on it though, it is not magic.
.....................Paul Aviles
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-06-06 23:44
Thanks Paul! I'll try that.
I've just recently started using extra fingers, and it's mainly just to stabilise the really difficult jumps from on note to another. I think it helps a lot that I've been playing long enough to have the fingering solidly established in my muscle memory. It means that when I add in other fingers, there is space in my mind to file those as "extra fingers needed just this time" without it messing up my attempts to memorise the basic fingerings. It was with grade 5 pieces that the rubber really hit the road. My teacher doesn't use any extra fingers, but I think I do need to.
Post Edited (2022-06-06 23:48)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-06-08 18:04
Hi,
I wondered if anybody would mind my putting the explanations I've written above onto a blog post so it's easy to link to the next time anyone asks?
I learned all this stuff on here, so thought it would be polite to ask first.
There's a whole lot more that I could add that might be useful for adult learners and maybe I could try to work on that.
I've felt for a long time that there's a text book gradually growing out of this forum. I wondered - maybe if I act as scribe, with full acknowledgement to the forum, then we could start to have it in book form, initially as a blog?
Thanks!
Jennifer
Post Edited (2022-06-08 18:06)
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Author: Valencio
Date: 2022-06-14 19:27
Thank you Jen, your explanation is so patient.
It's a very complex issue, expecially for a beginner like me.
I never thought there are so much differece between reeds in one box. I watched this video about this topic:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbVRF290b-o
She pick out several great reeds from the box. But in my opinon, all the sounds are so great……
So, maybe I should consider this issue in the future. Now I have three different reeds, a cheap 2.5, a Rico 2.5 and a Vandoren 2.5. Yes I can feel the difference now.
I was lucky not to be forced in my apartment, but I had a few friends who were. The most horrible thing is uncertainty, I may not be able to leave home for 2 weeks at any time.
Best wishes,
Valencio
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-06-15 12:21
Hi Valencio,
It's great that you are keeping going there and enjoying it all. I worry a bit that I am getting too excited about all this stuff and overloading you, so please just ignore me if I come out with too much information at any time.
I'm just so glad that you are enjoying playing and learning all about it. It's great to have you in the clarinet community and I really look forward to hearing more about what you find out over time.
Reeds are indeed quite complicated and strange. I am still learning so much about them and I've been at it for four years now. I used to be on a 2.5 and have now slipped back to a 1.5, but it's actually fine for me.
I know completely what you mean about the lockdown stuff. I'm stuck at home too, but it's actually opened up so much opportunity for me, as I wouldn't be able to meet other clarinet enthusiasts nearly so easily here in my local area. I love being on the forum. :-)
Best wishes,
Jen
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