 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Lawrence
Date: 2001-07-18 16:47
I am a trombone/tuba player and have played in various community band and amateur ensembles for about 6 years. My real love, though, is clarinet and I have an older model Evette Schaefer. My problem is large hands and very broad fingertips. My fingers fit between the keys but there is not much room to spare. Unless my fingering is very precise, I touch an adjacent key and get a squeak. Are there some models that have more space between the keys? I have always been drawn to the low parts so maybe bass clarinet would be a better choice, although I have never played one. Which part would be easier to start with, third or bass?
Thanks,
Lawrence
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2001-07-18 17:25
Lawrence -
Inaccurate finger placement is something all beginners suffer with but get over pretty quickly. (I'm not a trombonist, but I suppose it's something like learning the right place to put the trombone slide.) People with wide fingers sometimes get the "sliver" keys (between the ring finger and little finger holes on each joint) narrowed down or shortened, but I'd say keep at it for a few months and then reevaluate things.
I don't think the Buffet models (which your Evette is) have narrower spaces for fingers than those of other makers, but it wouldn't hurt to go to a music store and experiment.
Bass clarinet is certianly a possibility. The finger plates are a litle farther apart than on soprano clarinet, but not much. Probably, 3rd clarinet parts are a bit easier than bass parts. Basses are expensive, though, and get out of adjustment easily. Unless your band has one you can use, it's better to start on soprano, particularly since you already own one.
Good luck. Keep us posted on your progress.
Ken Shaw
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Author: David Pegel
Date: 2001-07-18 17:35
I'm glad to know that I'm not the only person on this forum to start on low brass. I had a small problem with finger placement too. If you still can't do anything about it, work with contralto or contrabass. Those have much greater distance between keys. (You said you liked low sound; that's about as low as it gets.)
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Author: Ashley
Date: 2001-07-18 19:24
Yeah, go for the bass. I dont know much about the finger spacing, but w/ bass they are a lot farther apart than soprano. No holes to cover also (that caused me MANY problems starting on soprano again, believe me). The embouchure is a lot looser and less, um, particular.
As for 3rd clarinet vs. bass clarinet parts...(this is all judging from high school music remember)... i've always played bass, and i've yet to see a 3rd clarinet part easier than my part. I was even given permission to look over and play the 3rd part up an octave if i got too bored or had eons of rests. Generally i have the typical bass clarient oom-pah part or long tones under the melody, and an occasional funky rhythm (what i get in college next year remains to be seen). I've had solos three times throughout HS, all this year (one of the main factors as to which pieces the director picked out were how interesting my part was), including the Battle scene in Gladiator (I must say that was a fun solo . March of the Belgian Parachutists had a pretty good part too.. I must say though, as the only bass clarinet, i was pretty much unimportant :( Enough of my rambling anyway. hope i helped.
~ashley~
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Author: jenna
Date: 2001-07-18 20:51
Ashley - at least you're not an alto clarinetist.
btw.. another fun instrument to try, as opposed to bass and soprano. Good space between keys, plays high like a soprano, low like a bass. All the fun in one! Alto clarinet. =)
ok, I'm done now. =)
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Author: Suzanne
Date: 2001-07-18 21:27
I don't know how practical it is, but the German system clarinets' keys are little farther apart...
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-07-18 23:23
Ken Shaw was correct in stating this is a _common_ problem. I had larger hands as a 45 y/o old adult (going back to clarinet), as opposed to the 16 y/o when I really seriously played last.
My hand problem was exascerbated by a great private teacher on my "2nd go-round", who insisted on chromatic fingerings which were MUCH tougher for my hands. Chromatic first-line Eb gave me fits for a long time. My solution, practicing CHROMATIC SCALES.
That said, my teacher made me learn to play the Chromatic Scale, & start & stop anywhere/everywhere. If there is/was a fingering problem, I was/am required to go out & down from the problem note or are to "practice fix it". First slowly, then faster ... until the problem fingering is fixed as much as possible.
I have seen some very successful players with large-er hands.
The keywork on some Selmer Clarinets seem to accomodate my hands better. The Selmer Signature did. Whether that was real & perceived or not, I cannot tell you.
Best,
mw
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Author: Dee
Date: 2001-07-19 00:30
People with thinner than average hands/fingers (such as my older daughter) also have problems. Instead of hitting extra keys, they have a problem completely covering the holes. For these people, the solution is once again, slow and steady practice. What they are aiming for is increased accuracy in finger placement so that they do completely cover the hole.
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Author: Terry Horlick
Date: 2001-07-19 00:39
Lawrence,
I was having a chat over the telephone with my tech (she has just rebuilt a 4th clarinet for me... my FB Buffet). She told me about a conversion of a nice clarinet she was doing. She was making it into a plateau horn for the owner who had severe arthritis and could no longer seal up the tone holes with his fingers. A plateau horn is one with pads instead of rings and holes.
If you were to do this to your, or another, horn you could then have the key positions altered by putting touch pads at different locations. This is how saxes manage to have the fingerings reachable for all horns from the Eb sopranino down to the Eb contra bass.
You need a talented creative repair person to do this. It is not a slam dunk. The tech will have to see where your hands are too crowded and do some thinking before the modifications are attempted. The tech will also need to modify the holes so a pad can be used. So if you are serious get in touch with your tech ( I use Sue Schaake at WW&BW, you should be able to find someone fairly close to your location though) and talk it through... and don't leave home without your check book!
Good luck, Terry
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Author: ClarinetBoy
Date: 2001-07-19 02:40
Lawrence,
Sometimes large hands can be a blessing in disguise for playing clarinet. I have large hands too (21cm from wrist to tip of middle finger) and although I have had problems in the past (mainly playing Eb) it can generally be a benefit to your playing. I can't really comment on thickness of the fingers as you say because I don't really have that problem. I have also heard of famous clarinet players with large hands but the one that stands in my mind is Daniel Bonade, he had very large hands.
The one thing I would watch out for would be hand position of the right hand. Especially thumb position. If your hands are as big as you say, you would probably have to get your thumb rest moved, as I have. As for playing Bass Clarinet, us large-handed people have it made!
good-luck
Ben
p.s: here is a link with a picture of Bonade (and his hands) http://www.morsax.com/bonade.html
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Author: Lawrence
Date: 2001-07-19 12:25
Thanks to everyone for their advice and encouragement. This is a terrific support group -- better than therapy!
It sounds like the best approach is practice (somehow I knew it would be), particularly the chromatic scales, which I have so far neglected. Bass or even alto (is there music available?) is still a possibility in the future. The picture of Bonade's hands is similar to mine so I guess there's hope after all.
Thanks again.
Lawrence
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-07-19 12:56
My fingers are wide. there is less than a millimetre of room to spare for my left ring finger. Yes instruments do vary significantly, but I cannot provide details. Also, some keys can be bent (euphemism = realigned) slightly to help.
My solution for this finger has been to put a cork permanently in the tone hole under the 'banana' key. I think this key is rather superfluous anyway, especially after starting with a flute with no such key.
I really can't understand why this is taught as a chromatic fingering. That just makes more work for the left ring finger and less for the right index. Why??? The right index is a far more skilful finger.
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Author: Dee
Date: 2001-07-19 13:51
Gordon (NZ) wrote:
>
> My fingers are wide. there is less than a millimetre of
> room to spare for my left ring finger. Yes instruments do vary
> significantly, but I cannot provide details. Also, some keys
> can be bent (euphemism = realigned) slightly to help.
> My solution for this finger has been to put a cork permanently
> in the tone hole under the 'banana' key. I think this key is
> rather superfluous anyway, especially after starting with a
> flute with no such key.
>
> I really can't understand why this is taught as a chromatic
> fingering. That just makes more work for the left ring
> finger and less for the right index. Why??? The right index
> is a far more skilful finger.
This may be true for you but it is not universal. I find my left ring finger to be equally skillful. I use the banana key fingering for Eb/Bb about as often as the side key fingering for Eb/Bb. For me both are comfortable and natural. Depending on the passage, one fingering may work better than the other and I select the fingering on that basis. So I personally consider both fingerings to be of great value along with the 1+1 fingering for Bb even though the latter isn't used quite as much, however certain passages become markedly easier if one is fluent with this fingering.
Here's where I find each fingering to be most useful (in general):
Side key version of Eb/Bb - scalewise runs where the preceding note requires the third finger such as Db to Eb or Ab to Bb.
Banana key version of Eb/Bb - Chromatic scale runs and scalewise runs where the preceding note does not require the ring finger such as D to Eb or A to Bb.
1+1 version of Bb (generally a bit too sharp to use for Eb on most instruments though) - Arpeggios involving Bb. Other intervals involving Bb and the right hand even if not arpeggios.
If it were not for the fact that a 1+1 Eb tends to be too sharp for general use, I would be happy with just the banana key fingering and the 1+1 fingering. Basically I would sacrifice the side key before the banana key.
With this particular note, I consider it essential to be proficient in all three fingerings to develop a fluid and reliable technique.
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Author: David Pegel
Date: 2001-07-19 15:53
I use the Eb banana key about as often as I use the Bn banana key - which is much more often than people normally do. I use it for Eb/D/C turns and for trills. I think that the banana key was a small blessing for left-handed people and for people with thinner fingertips. (Hence my problem with placement.) It's a plus to be able to move your ring finger quickly. That's why I encourage banana key use as much as possible. The 1+1 on my clarinet doesn't work at all because of a missing felt or something or other and that has helped me get used to other fingerings. Broken mechanisms can be a blessing in disguise after all!!
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Author: Meri
Date: 2001-07-20 00:40
How about checking your hand and wrist positions? I think I remember David Pino saying something in his book about how beginners tend to raise their wrists too high. This idea may also sometimes solve the problem for people with thin fingers (which I have) in covering the holes.
I very rarely use the L. ring finger for the Eb/Bb. *But* there have been the rare cases where it is absolutely necessary. (when there's wather in the side Eb/Bb, or in certain passages where using the side key or the 1/1 fingering is difficult or impossible. I don't have the studies or pieces on hand that would show it's rare usefulness.
Meri
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Author: jenna
Date: 2001-07-20 03:10
If you're playing in a community band, there should be alto parts. =) If, on occasion, there isn't - take a bari or alto sax part. I've used them in clarinet quartets/quintets before as well.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2001-07-20 15:30
I like you comments, Ashley, Jenna etc re: alto cl, Dee etc re: alternative fingerings. They pretty well describe my feelings on alto, slightly greater "reaches" and finger separations, on bass, some horns are like some saxes [tenor and bari] requiring greater reaches, but generally more comfortable on separations. One of the criteria I apply when evaluating cl's, which we used in checking out the 3 Buff Vintages for "best, good, fair" , is the in-tuneness [and clarity] of the 3 [for me] principal alternates, the mid-staff Bb's, the 3 Eb/Bb's and the B nat. /F#'s, which I use as needed, and recommend that students learn early for their use. Also, dont forget to consider thumbrests and keep the wrists down! Just my thots for this fine thread. Don
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Author: Douglas Wachter
Date: 2001-08-14 05:03
Talk about hand problems! My hands are neither too big nor too small.....but an old injury to my left hand has made it impossible for me to consistently and accurately cover hole #3 (the one that has no ring key to guide the finger).
I'm considering trying to find a plateau style instrument or pay someone to modify a standard one. I'm aware of several Vito, LeBlanc, Normandy (plastic LeBlanc) and Bundy models that have varying numbers and placements of plateau keys. I can afford a few hundred dollars, and would prefer to go for a better sound than I got out of the "ebonite" clarinet I studied on.
I gather that some players feel that a plateau style instrument can never sound really good because the instrument is designed to require a lot of "venting" of air over the holes when they are uncovered. Apparently a pad can interfere with this. I would think that a ring key at hole #3 would help me, if a pad wouldn't work.
Any ideas, thoughts, much appreciated.
Doug Wachter
dwachter67@aol.com
Carlsbad, CA
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Author: Douglas Wachter
Date: 2001-08-14 05:05
Talk about hand problems! My hands are neither too big nor too small.....but an old injury to my left hand has made it impossible for me to consistently and accurately cover hole #3 (the one that has no ring key to guide the finger).
I'm considering trying to find a plateau style instrument or pay someone to modify a standard one. I'm aware of several Vito, LeBlanc, Normandy (plastic LeBlanc) and Bundy models that have varying numbers and placements of plateau keys. I can afford a few hundred dollars, and would prefer to go for a better sound than I got out of the "ebonite" clarinet I studied on.
I gather that some players feel that a plateau style instrument can never sound really good because the instrument is designed to require a lot of "venting" of air over the holes when they are uncovered. Apparently a pad can interfere with this. I would think that a ring key at hole #3 would help me, if a pad wouldn't work.
Any ideas, thoughts, much appreciated.
Doug Wachter
dwachter67@aol.com
Carlsbad, CA
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