 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-10-28 20:13
Attachment: CoolingBreeze2.jpg (7k)
Attachment: Andantino-in-A-minor.jpg (10k)
Hi,
I wondered if I could ask how different people manage the instability of supporting the clarinet in double lip when playing these two exerpts?
I'm gradually figuring out that I can do it best with a 2.5 reed and strong careful, consistent, breath support, and keeping my embouchure soft. I haven't yet figured out how to do it quietly, but I think it might just be a bit of practise that's needed.
I'm playing standing up, but my sling is strongly enough set up that it is equivalent to playing with the bell wedged between my knees.
I can't put my top teeth down on the mp temporarily because my upper lip is very much in the way.
I'm playing a Vandoren V2.5 reed.
I'd be glad to know what others do.
Thanks!
Jen
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2021-10-28 21:38
General lip flexibility is the answer. There is no special fix for this specific example. It takes many hours of practice on scales, arpeggios, and intervals for a player to develop a double lip embouchure that can easily bridge the gap from throat register to altissimo and clarion to altissimo. Practicing the Baermann Method Book part 3 scales in 3rds and 6ths in all keys for half an hour each day double lip (and the octave/double octave page) will more or less automatically eventually give a player the ability to easily surmount passages like these. Even better, practice them in 3rds, 4ths, 5ths, 6ths, and octaves. Patience and persistence are necessary. It could take a year or two before such things feel natural and routine. In the examples you give, try playing the high D as an overblown "open" throat G, and try to get the pitch and tone to match that of the usual high D fingering.
Those scales in intervals may feel tedious and boring but persistence in daily practice of them is a sure road to attaining lip flexibility across all the registers of the clarinet.
Post Edited (2021-10-28 22:23)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2021-10-28 21:42
What I'd found in the last few years is that when there is literally no mashing of the reed at all, skips are breeze because the reed remains at the same flexion point (nearly zero) for everything.
There may actually be a fingering component as well. I often just play the "D" sitting upon the second ledger line above the staff OPEN.........literally no fingers. Sometimes it helps to add the RH pinky on the Ab/Eb key or even additionally add the lowest side key (Eb/Bb) but only if the pitch is riding low.
................Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2021-10-28 22:18)
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Author: brycon
Date: 2021-10-29 01:56
Quote:
I wondered if I could ask how different people manage the instability of supporting the clarinet in double lip when playing these two exerpts?
I would first figure out the nature of the instability. Is it occurring because of your embouchure? Or is it occurring because of your fingers? (Or perhaps there's some other cause?)
Many clarinetists, whether they play single lip or double lip, feel some awkwardness crossing the higher register break going downward. When you play the high D, you have a number of fingers down. And when you then play C, you lift most of them up, which can cause the clarinet to feel unstable. A very simple solution, then, is to keep the right-hand little finger pressing down on the Eb key as a sort of anchor.
Moreover, when you move to C, you could also press upward a bit with your thumbs so that the clarinet anchors into your upper lip (or, if playing single lip, teeth) and jaw. I find that giving a rhythm to this feeling of pressing (for example, press with the thumbs on the upbeat of one in the first excerpt) also adds to expression.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-10-29 10:03
Thank you very much, I'll give that all a try and see where I get to.
The idea of overblowing the open G makes a huge amount of sense to me. I was gradually reaching that idea myself and wondering if it was really possible.
I've found the scales in 3rds and 6ths in Bayermann, so I can start doing that as regular practise. Thank you very much for letting me know about that Seabreeze.
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Author: ebonite
Date: 2021-10-29 11:54
SunnyDaze wrote:
>
> The idea of overblowing the open G makes a huge amount of sense
> to me. I was gradually reaching that idea myself and wondering
> if it was really possible.
>
Try the "open high D" with and without the register key (one or other way may be
better with your instrument)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-10-29 12:41
Thanks Ebonite, yes it does kind of work. I'm going to keep trying both and see which one sits best. Thanks!
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Author: rdc
Date: 2021-10-29 17:11
I notice that both of the excerpts you cite have D6 to C6. I have found that the high C (C6) is one of the most difficult notes to play when learning double lip embouchure. This is because you have no fingers down on the front of the instrument to counteract the "push" of the left thumb at the back of the instrument.
Compare this situation to other instruments that use double lip, such as the oboe, which has no fingerings that are not supported with one or more left-hand fingers depressed.
And besides that, to avoid a biting embouchure on clarinet, many of us push in to the embouchure with the right thumb in order to provide the pressure for the embouchure to work, as described in Tom Ridenour's "Educator's Guide to the Clarinet." This creates even more pressure on the upper lip.
How to manage:
1. A softer reed helps because not as much push into the embouchure is needed to begin and sustain the tone. This can help when learning double lip but is not a long-term solution.
2. Use a fingering for C6 such as TR 00X side Eb/Bb 000 to help support the clarinet. This does not help when playing from D6 to C6, however, if you use the standard fingering for D6.
3. Recognize the increased pressure on the upper lip when playing C6, and purposely add a little extra upper lip push against the mouthpiece to counteract this increased pressure. This will soon become an automatic response to this note, but be careful not to keep the pressure the same for the notes around the C6. Use just enough additional pressure to stabilize the instrument for the problematic note. Try practicing a slow chromatic scale such as B5-C6-C#6-D6-C#6-C6-B6 to feel the needed upper lip pressure change. Of course, start the chromatic passage lower if you need to in order to begin with stable tone quality.
There is a register change when playing from D6 to C6 which can also create problems in the excerpts you posted. Others answering you have focused on managing this change, but recognize that it is a different issue. Personally, I wouldn't use the open G high D fingering unless the passage is extremely fast, as the intonation of that fingering is not the best. I would use the standard fingering and manage the register change with subtle voicing and embouchure pressure changes between the notes. Increasing the stability of the C6 as I have described should also help with the register change.
I hope this helps!
R. Chest
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-10-29 17:35
Hi rdc,
Thanks so much for articulating my question so clearly. That is exactly what I was trying to ask. Your suggestions are really helpful.
With the drop down from D6 to C6 it's challenging to cope with having no fingers on top, and the register change also is a big element.
In playing it, I feel as though I am trying to change gears on a bicycle while also riding no-hands. In that situation it would be possible to do it, but just would need very careful control of the force applied to the pedals, so as to allow the gear change to take place smoothly (that is harder when riding no-hands). Currently on my clarinet, I feel as though I don't control my air right, with the result that the C6 either fails to sound, or I blow far too loudly.
The really interesting thing, I think, is that the C6 works in the Andantino passage, because the C6 note is very short. However, in the Cooling Breeze passage, the C6 is longer. That means that I need to control it for longer and try to get a good stable tone. When I try to do that, the C6 does that thing that stunt kites do, where it starts to take off, then spirals furiously in the air, and then goes into the ground like a dart.
It makes me wonder if I need to control my air better so that as I change gear (going over the register change) the reed would not get all wriggly, but would coast gently over the register change, and then settle into the C6.
Maybe what I also need to do is stabilise it with different fingerings though, as suggested above, and I will need to try a lot of things, I think, to figure that out.
Thank you for all the suggestions. It will take me some time to work out what works for me I think, but I will get practising.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2021-10-29 18:13
The purpose of practicing the open D fingering (overblown 12th of throat G) is not to use it in a concert performance for a sustained note. It is, as rdc says, best used for fast notes (for example in the famous rapid clarion to altissimo passage early in the Carl Nielsen Concerto). The purpose is to develop the combined lip/jaw/tongue/palate anatomical apparatus that voices the tone and modifies pitch. As you work hard to steady and deepen the sound of the open D to match the better acoustical fingerings, you give yourself a valuable lesson in tone production that adds confidence to your playing and helps "set" and steady the double lip embouchure.
As a general rule, whenever you are playing a note that is not naturally supportive of balancing the clarinet, you look to see what other fingers are available that can be recruited into the service of balancing and stabilizing the instrument. You ask "what fingers can I put down that will give me more security without changing the pitch or tone quality of the note?" That requires considerable personal exploration and trial and error. Playing scales in 3rds, 4ths, 5ths, and 6ths, in all keys gives you ample opportunity to discover exactly what you can do with your fingers on any given interval to steady your balance and make the feel of the instrument more secure in your hands and between your lips.
Post Edited (2021-10-29 19:40)
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Author: BethGraham
Date: 2021-10-29 20:04
I love the common-sense advice you offer in your posts, seabreeze!
Learning to play clarinet is hard work.
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2021-10-31 16:36
Why not the direct approach? What I would do, and did do for similar wide intervals and the general case, is practice specific intervals until they're smooth, and just figure it out.
Except for the fingering, everything you do to play that D beautifully can and should be in effect while you are playing the previous notes beautifully. I don't see that any change in embouchure or tongue position at all is needed to negotiate those leaps (unless there are intonation issues you can't correct any other way, or you want to deliberately change the quality of the sound.) Nor would I (ever) use the open D, certainly not on extended notes such as shown.
One practice technique in this would be to play the interval (and adjacent intervals) backwards as well as forwards, until you can repeatedly slur back and forth with smoothness and ease.
I see voicing as a matter of keeping the entire tongue lightly tensioned so that all vibratory lengths are supported internally. That's why you often hear advice to keep the tongue arched for altissimo notes - arching lightly tensions the relevant portions of the tongue. The nice thing about it is that you can maintain that arch, or as I prefer light tensioning of the entire length of the tongue, for any & all pitches / internal vibratory lengths. Doing so will promote good quality sound in all registers.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-10-31 23:59
Hi Philip,
Thanks for replying.
The D is okay actually. The tricky bit is when I get to the C, and because I'm playing double lip, the clarinet springs up off my left thumb, causing the note to fail. My lip doesn't pin the clarinet down as hard as if my teeth were on the mp.
I do think that your advice to "just figure it out" still holds. It's great to have all these tips from people though.
Thanks,
Jen
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Author: BethGraham
Date: 2021-11-01 01:19
At the risk of muddying the waters, Jen, I think Tom Ridenaur suggests pushing up on the right-hand thumb to offer additional support. Let me see if I can find a source for you.
I can't locate the actual spot where I saw him discuss this on YouTube, but here's a brief mention from an old article he wrote on the use of the right-hand thumb:
http://elan-tric.blogspot.com/2007/10/role-of-embouchure-tom-ridenour.html
(From my dear friend Mr. Merriam-Webster: the expression "muddy the waters" means to make a situation more confusing or difficult; https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/muddy%20the%20waters )
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-11-01 14:56
Hi,
I have tried all the suggestions out and it turns out that the scheme that works for me is keeping my right hand pinkie finger down to keep the clarinet steady. Thank you very much to brycon for suggesting that. I absolutely wouldn't have thought of that on my own.
I also switched to a Vandoren classic 2 reed which is just strong enough to get the notes clear, but not too strong for my post-covid embouchure.
Thanks Beth for the suggestion about Tom Ridenour's videos. I have watched them and I do like them too.
Thanks so much for everbody's suggestions.
Jen x
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Author: Ed
Date: 2021-11-01 20:12
Tom talks about keeping the opening of the embouchure fixed and secure so using the right thumb kind or wedges it in there. It requires some strength in the lips, but it is key to avoid biting. It should not really necessary to use all kind of extra fingers to keep the instrument secure. At the same time, be patient. It takes time to develop some control and comfort.
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Author: brycon
Date: 2021-11-02 04:01
Quote:
It should not really necessary to use all kind of extra fingers to keep the instrument secure.
Firstly, keeping the right-hand pinky down is not "using all kinds of extra fingers." It's using a single finger.
Secondly, anchoring the right-hand pinky finger by leaving a key, whether the Eb or the C key, pressed down is a very common technique used by clarinetists.
Quote:
Tom talks about keeping the opening of the embouchure fixed...
Thirdly, this advice can really screw people up. Sure, you don't want to chew your mouthpiece or let it slide around while you're playing. At the same time, though, you have to alter intonation, change registers, and perhaps occasionally use vibrato, all of which require flexibility and even some movement of the embouchure.
But your mileage may vary.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-11-02 23:19
Hi Brycon,
Adding in that pinkie finger on the Eb really transforms the situation for me, so I'm totally sold on that.
My muscles are not really strong enough for a no 2 reed yet, so I might switch back to a 1.5 until I can work up a bit more muscle. I'm keeping bashing away here.
Thank you so much for sending me that idea of how to sort the problem. It really got me out of a hole.
Jen
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Author: Ed
Date: 2021-11-03 05:27
Not sure how my comments can be viewed as questionable. I guess that is the nature of online forums.
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Author: Reese Oller
Date: 2021-11-04 00:50
I played for six years with a double lip embouchure and never realized it was out of the norm until I made one of my friends laugh. I noticed her teeth were on top of the mouthpiece, and I thought, well, that makes sense. Now I've been playing mainly with a single lip embouchure, but I never noticed any problems with altissimo with one or the other that I couldn't fix with some technique tweaks... Of course, I am still fairly bad at the clarinet, but over 2020 I just decided to really start taking clarinet seriously. Then my band director noticed how strong my tone was and put me on bass for this year. It turns out I'm pretty good at bass!
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Author: kdk
Date: 2021-11-04 01:51
Reese Oller wrote:
> I played for six years with a double lip embouchure and never
> realized it was out of the norm until I made one of my friends
> laugh. I noticed her teeth were on top of the mouthpiece, and I
> thought, well, that makes sense. Now I've been playing mainly
> with a single lip embouchure, but I never noticed any problems
> with altissimo with one or the other that I couldn't fix with
> some technique tweaks...
There are excellent players on both sides of this divide. There's nothing intrinsically inferior about either double or single lip approaches. Experienced players figure out how to make the embouchure they've decided to use work.
Karl
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Author: Reese Oller
Date: 2021-11-04 06:30
Sounds good to me. I'm a high school player though, so I wouldn't consider myself experienced. Especially since I no longer play it on a daily basis what with bassoon and bass.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2021-11-05 00:28
Reese Oller wrote:
> I played for six years with a double lip embouchure and never
> realized it was out of the norm
> Sounds good to me. I'm a high school player though, so I
> wouldn't consider myself experienced. Especially since I no
> longer play it on a daily basis what with bassoon and bass.
Six years is experienced enough to have figured out (to an extent) how to use whatever embouchure you've adopted. And you're doing it (or were), apparently.
My point was to counter your characterization of double-lip as "out of the norm."
Good luck with bass - it's a valuable instrument to have in your arsenal. My advice would be to not let Bb clarinet go completely. There may be more opportunities for you down the road on a Bb, especially if you don't own your own decent bass.
Karl
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Author: Reese Oller
Date: 2021-11-05 19:52
I agree with everything you just said (even the part that's gonna make me practice EVEN MORE), but the reason I dropped double lip was because no one else in my school was using it. Now, 3 years ago, I was stupid and thought it would alter my sound, so of course I stopped using it. Now I regret it, but at the same time I don't, if that makes sense... Yeah, bass is a valuable weapon! Ooops, I mean "instrument". Yes... And I don't own my own bass. My parents don't view my musical pursuits as "viable as a real career," and the only instrument I've ever owned is a plastic YCL-255 for the last 8 years. I would describe it as "dead" at this point. Don't get me wrong, it was a wonderful instrument in its heyday! But
I do believe it has hampered my progress as a musician, even with the best mouthpiece and reeds slapped on it. But my parents refuse to relent, so I'm stuck without a good clarinet, no bass clarinet, and no bassoon. However, my band director has promoted me from second chair clarinet to "Swiss Army Knife," so it's not all bad!
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-11-05 21:13
Hi Reese,
Thanks so much for explaining your situation. I really wish we could somehow post you a clarinet now, but they are so expensive aren't they? I love that you are now the swiss army knife. That is a wonderful way of putting it. I have a friend here who plays that role in a symphony orchestra and I'm always astonished at the array of instruments that he can handle all in one performance.
I also had a great love for a rather poorly paid occupation when I was your age - with me it was botany. In the end I went into bioinformatics which combined my first love with the rather better paid occupation as a computer person and that was a lovely life for me. I must say, one of the great advantages of having a well paid career is that it does provide funds for buying musical instruments, and that is a nice thing.
I hope things go well for you there and you find your way.
Jennifer
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Author: farabout
Date: 2021-11-05 22:14
IMHO, a double lip embouchure and reliable, stable, in-tune altissimo are mutually exclusive. Ie, hitting all the way to the C7 (eg, the final solo note of Artie Shaw's concerto) with 2x-lip is synonymous to a mission impossible.
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Author: Reese Oller
Date: 2021-11-05 23:34
Yes, they do seem to be rather expensive!:) Yeah, it's great, but also tiring.
Bioinformatics, eh? I've never heard of that before!
Mission Impossible, eh? Now you have my attention!
Reese Oller
Clarinet student (performance major at Millikin University)
I can play bass clarinet, Eb clarinet, BBb contra, alto saxophone, bassoon at a decent level, and flute in a pinch.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2021-11-06 00:12
farabout wrote:
> IMHO, a double lip embouchure and reliable, stable, in-tune
> altissimo are mutually exclusive. Ie, hitting all the way to
> the C7 (eg, the final solo note of Artie Shaw's concerto) with
> 2x-lip is synonymous to a mission impossible.
No.
Karl
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Author: farabout
Date: 2021-11-06 00:17
kdk wrote:
> farabout wrote:
>
> > IMHO, a double lip embouchure and reliable, stable, in-tune
> > altissimo are mutually exclusive. Ie, hitting all the way to
> > the C7 (eg, the final solo note of Artie Shaw's concerto)
> with
> > 2x-lip is synonymous to a mission impossible.
>
> No.
>
> Karl
Can you substantiate your apparently categorical "No" with any credible footage (eg, youtube) of a reliable, stable & in-tune altissimo with 2x-lip embouchure?
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Author: kdk
Date: 2021-11-06 00:18
Reese Oller wrote:
> ...the only instrument I've ever
> owned is a plastic YCL-255 for the last 8 years. I would
> describe it as "dead" at this point. Don't get me wrong, it was
> a wonderful instrument in its heyday!
The YCL-255 has a plastic body, doesn't it? So there isn't any wood to deteriorate. Everything else on it (pads, springs, corks) is replaceable. So, I'm not sure why it couldn't be restored to its original condition or nearly so by a skilled repair person. The drawback might be the expense of a really thorough overhaul, but the instrument is probably not irretrievably "dead."
Karl
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Author: Reese Oller
Date: 2021-11-06 00:51
Huh. I think my clarinet has only been through a repair person once. I'm going to ask my parents to take it soon!
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2021-11-06 01:21
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=John+Yeh+Shaw+Concerto
John Yeh of the Chicago Symphony plays the Artie Shaw Clarinet Concerto that ends on a high C. Mr. Yeh studied with Harold Wright and uses a double lip embouchure. He can also play the Cs that occur in concertos by Spohr and elsewhere, and the C# in the Elliot Carter Concerto. In fact, virtually EVERY professional clarinetist who plays double lip can play the C. It is not an unusual feat or freak occurrence. Saying nobody can play this note double lip is like saying that nobody can pass a calculus course in school. To someone not familiar with math, this may seem to be true, but many who are good in math pass the calculus courses every semester and may not even say anything about it.
Post Edited (2021-11-06 02:47)
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Author: farabout
Date: 2021-11-06 01:50
seabreeze wrote:
> https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=John+Yeh+Shaw+Concerto
>
> John Yeh of the Chicago Symphony plays the Artie Shaw Clarinet
> Concerto that ends on a high C. Mr. Yeh studied with Harold
> Wright and uses a double lip embouchure. He can also play the Cs that occur
> in Spohr clarinet concertos and elsewhere. In fact, virtually EVERY
> professional clarinetist who plays double lip can play this note.
> Post Edited (2021-11-06 01:21)
First, the respective link for Artie's concerto (and the correct one is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lhm86BpfDAA) does NOT actually show that Yeh is using 2x-lip embouchure.
Second, his terminal C7 on that AUDIO recording is neither stable, nor in tune.
Third, where is the respective link for Yeh's alleged 2x-lipped altissimo "Cs that occur in Spohr clarinet concertos and elsewhere"?
Fourth, can you yourself "play this note" via double lip?
Post Edited (2021-11-06 01:50)
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2021-11-06 01:58
Hi farabout. I agree with kdk & seabreeze. C7, with good intonation and sound, is easy for a professional double-lip player. I'm not on Youtube, but my email address is in my user profile; if you send me your email address, then I'll send you a couple mp4 files of an amateur coming pretty close.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2021-11-06 02:06
Farabout,
You like being a troll. I'm not going down the rabbit hole with you. Every clarinetist I know who can play double lip who plays professionally can play that note. Many single lip players can't play it, and many single lip players don't play it with perfect control and pitch. When things return to normal, you need to go out and explore the world of pro clarinet players, meet double lip players and find out for yourself. Some will play the note double lip and some may switch to single to get added stability. But if they are pros usually playing double lip, they CAN play that note double lip. It is not somehow magically separated from the rest of the clarinet range, though it is inherently unstable. You haven't done your homework, and the web cannot do it for you. The bubble of the Internet cannot give you the social and musical experience that meeting, studying, and playing alongside working clarinetists offers. It's a big world out there: (when COVID19 has passed), leave the computer/smart phone keyboard and explore it! Yes, in the 1982 Munich Competition, Mr. Yeh played the Spohr Clarinet Concerto No. 2 with all the C7s, and in 1998 he did the American premiere of the Elliot Carter Concerto (including the C#7) with Pierre Boulez and the Chicago Symphony.
Post Edited (2021-11-10 20:22)
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Author: farabout
Date: 2021-11-06 02:25
Seabreeze,
You like claiming that the Earth is flat. Can you do "your homework" and offer some evidence to support your claim?
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2021-11-06 03:05
Looking up "arrogance " in Wikipedia. Along with "twit". Look who I found.
Don't feed trolls, please.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2021-11-06 19:38
Thanks Mark. It is bad enough to see this kind of behavior in so much of public life. It is always nice when this BB is somewhat of a “safe” space. Nothing here is life or death. Any of us who have been around the block a bit know that there is not necessarily a “right” approach or answer and there are many different ways to approach things. This board has been such a great source of info over the years from pros down to amateurs and students. Lots of great people here, to say nothing of the great job that moderators and Mark have done here.
Looking forward to many more great discussions and ideas!
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-11-06 19:50
I totally agree, Ed. I have several public forums that I go on, and I'm sorry to say that some of them are riddled with trolls. I'm so grateful that this forum is a safe space where trolling is not tolerated. Thanks Mark.
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Author: Reese Oller
Date: 2021-11-08 07:42
Wow, after one weekend, I return, and this is what happened? I wish I could say I'm surprised, but I have seen several threads blow up like this... It's a shame that some people cannot shelve their disagreements and keep things civil... I personally tried playing C7 on clarinet over the weekend. I can do it with fair ease with single lip, but on double lip I couldn't. Any advice?
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-11-08 19:46
I'm tempted to try too, but I think I may need to install sound-proof doors first. People get weirded out already when I play C6.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-11-08 19:48
btw I'm working through at the moment converting Dr Battipaglia's dissertation on double lip playing from a scanned typewritten doc to a work doc. If you'd like to see it once I'm finished I can send it over. The original doc is the pdf at the top of this page. I love it.
https://urresearch.rochester.edu/institutionalPublicationPublicView.action?institutionalItemId=35968
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Author: BethGraham
Date: 2021-11-08 20:10
(Hey, Jen -- Got my ancient librarian hat on at the moment. Do you need permission from the author or from Eastman to change the format of the dissertation and to distribute it to others? Not sure, actually, what the rules around copyright are in this case, but you've got my spidey senses tingling. )
Note that this dissertation is from 1975; looks interesting, but folks might want to supplement with more current research.
By the way, you couldn't pay me enough to attempt to play C7!
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-11-08 20:20
Hi Beth,
Thanks for thinking of that. The author has unfortunately died now, but his widow has given me permission to attempt the conversion. When I'm finished I'm going to send it to her, so she can make a judgement on it and distribute it herself, if she is happy to do so. I would only send on copies to anyone else if she had given me specific permission to do so. When I said that in my previous post I was assuming that she would be happy for me to do so - you're right though, that was presumptuous and I probably was jumping the gun there. Sorry.
The conversion is quite fiddly work because I'm trying to make the word doc look like a typewritten document of that era, which is actually quite fun. Also there are meeelions of footnotes which I have to put into the word footnote field, and I have to get the numbering all right. Then there are loads of accented characters that I have to check came through in the conversion, and all that kind of stuff. I started months ago and had a break when the summer weather was nice and I was out in the garden. It's cold again now so I'm back working at the thesis.
The thing is, I really love it. Dr Battipaglia has such a kind, lovely manner in his writing, and his discussion about double lip is really very interesting, so I'm learning more even on my fourth read-through. It's a very enjoyable job.
Thank you for asking about it. Were you a librarian before then?
Jen
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-11-08 20:21
I'm also nervous about C7. I don't think the neighbours' dogs would thank me.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2021-11-08 21:02
SunnyDaze - there are possible copyright claims by the university on the paper, along with possible estate claims (his wife may have given you permission, but you also need to check whether or not she has the authority to give you permission to copy). If it's for personal use I don't see any problem, but if you try & publish it, even if you do it for love and don't charge a penny, you could get in trouble. Universities are pretty tough at pursuing copyright, and even if they have no rights at all you still have to defend.
Personally, I might do it for my personal use, and perhaps lend a copy to interested people, but I'd never openly acknowledge that I did it. That's just me.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2021-11-08 21:45
Mark Charette wrote:
> SunnyDaze - there are possible copyright claims by the
> university on the paper, along with possible estate claims (his
> wife may have given you permission, but you also need to check
> whether or not she has the authority to give you permission to
> copy).
So, if there's no change made to the actual content of the paper, but only the format, how does the fact that U of Rochester has made a pdf of the text available on a publicly accessible site affect anyone's being legally allowed to reformat it?
I agree that I'd be skittish about openly converting the (typewritten) pdf to a more up-to-date computer word processing/publishing grade format and distributing it. But the University's license agreement with the submitter (also linked to the website) does allow the University to "without changing the content, translate the submission to any medium or format for the purposes of preservation." I wonder if you could get UofR to grant you formal permission, since you're willing to do the work anyway, and then, if your conversion meets their standard of accuracy, post it on their website in place of the original typewritten version.
Karl
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2021-11-08 22:03
If you think the high note will be harsh and shrill, it most likely will be.
You need a model to copy rather than trying to reinvent the wheel.
High notes are just notes like any others, and need to be tamed and
civilized into matching the lower notes. Harold Wright, solo clarinet with the Boston Symphony was good at doing this and could serve as one of many models. In the first movement of the Weber Clarinet Quintet, there are three very wide interval slurs from the lowest chalumeau to fairly far up in the altissimo. Listen to how Wright adapts and finesses the altissimo to match the chalumeau in his recording of the piece. You can find the music for free at https://musopen.org/music/6165-clarinet-quintet-op34/
Here's Wright's performance. Listen to the wide intervals at time stamp 2:42-2:43, 5:56-5:57, and 8:56-8:57. I don't hear any dogs howling, do you? But there may be a few songbirds singing along with him in admiration. The object is to have the high altissimo note float out, not squeal and sputter. Let the birds do the chirping. TOP HIT ON THIS PAGE: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=harold+wright+weber+quintet+B+Flat+1+allegro
Moving over to Vienna, Andrea Goestch (probably the first woman to play clarinet in the Vienna Philharmonic) can provide another model in performing the high notes in the Weber Quintet. Note that she plays with a very fixed embouchure, relaxed in appearance--no straining of lip and cheek. She's playing a large (15.2 mm or more) bore Viennese clarinet with a long close facing on the mouthpiece. That set-up tends to give a very round, velvety sound even in the altissimo but is a little less vibrant and pingy in the chalumeau as a rule. Very traditional, beautiful Viennese clarinet playing. It doesn't hurt that she is an avid soccer player with strong, high-capacity lungs when she is playing those high notes. They float out like feathers and I don't hear any dogs howling here either.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJtypOgWsZk.
To find out how to play the altissimo register listen to the best players you can to hear how they sound when they ascend to the heights. Try Sabine Meyer, Martin Frost, Anthony McGill, Yona Ettlinger, Stanley Drucker, Tony Pay, Julian Bliss, the Ottensamers and move on from there. Copies of the mediocre will produce only lesser mediocrity.
Post Edited (2021-11-10 05:15)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-11-08 22:11
Hi Mark and Karl,
Thank you very much for explaining that. I didn't know any of that.
I wrote to the University of Rochester ages ago to ask their permission and they haven't replied.
Professor (Mrs) Battipaglia said she was really happy that I was keen to do it. I assumed that I would just do the work and send it back to her to send on to the University.
I'm taking meticulous care to make sure that I change nothing.
Even where words are underlined in the original to indicate that italics are intended, I am still underlining them, rather than actually putting them in italics.
Literally the only change is that the footnote numbers are incremented by one, and that's only because word insisted on making the first footnote be labelled "2" and I can't find any way to change it. The correct footnotes are connected to all the correct locations in the text, as I have gone through it with a fine toothcomb making sure every single footnote is right.
Everything else is a direct copy even in the formatting. Even down to the location of the page breaks, the widths of the margins, and the indents of all the text.
I'm not sure what I can do, other than just finish it and send it to Professor Battipaglia. It seems such a shame that it should not be brought into a modern format when it's such a fantastic resource.
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Author: BethGraham
Date: 2021-11-08 22:15
I'm not a copyright lawyer, but I think she could reformat it for her own personal use without a problem. It's the distribution of the work that may be problematic. Directing an individual to the university, where that person can download their own personal copy, is one thing, because the university is controlling access to the work. A person downloading the document and then distributing it to other people themselves, though, may not count as "fair use."
Again, I'm not a copyright expert, and I've been out of the library field for a long time, but I would be awfully careful about providing what could be considered unauthorized access to any document. (I appreciate, Jen, that the widow has given you permission to massage the dissertation into a different format, but as Mark says, the university may have ownership of the document, too.)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-11-08 22:15
Do you have any idea of who I should contact at the University of Rochester? Maybe if I tried a more specific contact than just their default contact address, that might be a better idea?
I do see what you mean about worries with copyright, but it seems like I should at least try quite hard to get in touch with them, rather than just ditching the project altogether.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-11-08 22:18
Thanks Beth. I had no idea that it worked like that. It's just was well I mentioned. I don't want to put my foot in it with anyone.
That's nice that I can have it for my own use anyway. The nice thing is that I can do text searches on the word version, which is really helpful when I want to remind myself of some detail of what Dr Battipaglia said about some particular technique.
Gosh. Things we didn't know....
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Author: BethGraham
Date: 2021-11-08 22:21
Jen --
As a pdf, it actually is in a modern format. (I don't think I fully understand what you're trying to do in converting it into a Word document; how that format makes it more accessible.)
Just by providing the link to the university page and talking up the dissertation, you've done a great service in publicizing the author's work. Truly. I'm sure many more eyes are going to be on it now.
Beth
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-11-08 22:22
That's amazing seabreeze. If you hadn't said that that was a high altissimo clarinet in the Clarinet Quintet in B-Flat Major I would have assumed that it was a violin playing the note.
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Author: BethGraham
Date: 2021-11-08 22:24
I think, if I were you, I'd start by contacting the reference department at the Sibley Music Library at the Eastman School of Music, since the dissertation is housed there. I'm not positive, though.
(Sorry to derail the double-lip post, folks!)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-11-08 22:28
Hi Beth,
That's great that you think I've helped by talking about the dissertation.
The word doc is literally just so I can do a text search. There are absolutely acres of fabulous advice in the dissertation and I constantly find myself thinking "now what did he say about this?" or "where did he say what Ralph MacLane's view was on that?" and then it's really hard to find the right bit in the pdf.
In my word doc, I can click on the right bit of the index and it takes me straight to the page that I want. Or I can do ctrl-f and search for a keyword like Opperman, and I go right to the place that I want.
I appreciate though, that this may be a bit of a niche requirement. It sure does help me out though.
I totally take your point about copyright, and I will write to Professor Battipaglia again and explain what you've said. I don't want to get either of us in trouble, and I'm sure she will be happy enough just to have the (really very excellent) pdf online.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-11-08 22:35
Thanks Beth, yes I'll write to them. Thanks.
I'm not a librarian btw, but I was a bioinformatician for 7 years. It was my job to convert biomedical literature (printed research papers) into computer readable format for high-throughput processing of medical research data (like genome and proteome sequencing.) I haven't ever come up against a situation where people actually didn't want me to convert their data, so it's just as well you mentioned. I had no idea that that was a thing.
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Author: BethGraham
Date: 2021-11-08 22:36
From the ESM Theses and Dissertations page (https://urresearch.rochester.edu/viewInstitutionalCollection.action?collectionId=96):
"These works are made available solely for the purposes of scholarship and criticism. Any further distribution without the copyright holder's permission is unlawful."
And with that, I'll remove my battered librarian hat and go practice Bach.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-11-08 22:46
Hi Beth,
Thanks for that. I've written to them to ask. Enjoy your practise. :-)
Jen
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2021-11-08 23:07
Here's an example of a piece by Prokofiev (originally for violin or flute) that tends to stay in the altissimo for a large part of its length. There is a somewhat easier transcription of this sonata by Kent Kennan but Chen Halevi chose to perform an even more difficult transcription. There is no sign of strain or laboring in the performance. Quite the contrary; the clarinet soars over the piano like a lark or a seabird sparkling with a silvery glow on the very highest notes. This is a model you can use for high note playing. Yes, the clarinet can fly like this and glisten even on the highest tones. Years of careful practice on scales, scales in intervals, and arpeggios, and above all on actual music of high quality is the route to get to this high flying place.
Chen Halevi plays Prokofiev: (In 4 movements):
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=prokofiev+clarinet+sonata+halevi+and+shaban.
Post Edited (2021-11-09 01:25)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-11-09 00:17
That sounds lovely Seabreeze. All the Scots fiddle music that I play is all the way up in the high notes like that. I didn't even know that the clarinet could do that. I will have a go.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2021-11-09 00:40
kdk wrote:
> it. But the
> University's license agreement with the submitter (also linked
> to the website) does allow the University to "without changing
> the content, translate the submission to any medium or format
> for the purposes of preservation." I wonder if you could get
> UofR to grant you formal permission, since you're willing to do
> the work anyway, and then, if your conversion meets their
> standard of accuracy, post it on their website in place of the
> original typewritten version.
>
There's always a "what if" in copyright somewhere. Reformatting it for personal use - I wouldn't care. Personally I wouldn't use word but pure text because it's easier to index. But ...
Some places are copyright whores, including more than a few institutions where they lock up dissertations and you gotta pay for a key. But in any case, get permission from the University AND the estate before putting it up in any publicly accessible place. The crawlers on the web will find it if it isn't made inaccessible, and you will get a serious "take-down" notice. I've already fought that fight. It's not fun. Even if/when you win the fight it costs money. The late Ken Shaw went to bat for me twice without charge.
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Author: Reese Oller
Date: 2021-11-09 01:12
My parents have banned anything above C4! Just kidding, but I wouldn't be surprised. My mom does not have perfect pitch, so she can't tell what notes I'm playing. She did play the flute though, so she's got an idea of what sounds like what. My father, however, deems anything in the high clarion up "Off limits" and "Unnatural, even where it's written for and even more impractical with your games!" My brother and I have had some altissimo battles in the past. He plays the trombone! HE'S NOT SUPPOSED TO GET TO BB7! I can still eke him out by two semitones, though!
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-11-09 01:42
Hi Mark - Thank you for explaining that. I had no idea that is was that complicated. I don't want to get in any battles. That doesn't sound like any fun at all.
Reese - I totally get what you mean. Nobody much likes it when I experiment with high notes. I have to play my violin behind two closed doors. One closed door is considered enough with the clarinet when I'm playing below C6.
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Author: Reese Oller
Date: 2021-11-09 06:06
Ouch... Oh yeah, today I was just given the go-ahead to literally SHAKE THE WALLS on bass clarinet for this one piece. AWWWW, YEAHH!
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-11-10 13:06
I just tried, and I don't have any problem at all playing double lip on all the notes from D6 up to C7. All the notes sound easily. It's just C6 that is fiddly.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2021-11-10 18:40
Congratulations! You just might be someone for whom double lip is just right.
Others might be better off with single lip. You (and I, a veteran double-lipper), might be better off playing single lip if we are in a marching band. It is all a pragmatic, situational, relative business, not a matter of absolutes. If it works, do it. If it doesn't do something else. Some players see-saw back and forth, playing one way and then another. Some play amazingly well either way, and some not so much either way. In Gulliver's Travels, Swift has his hero visit a country where internecine wars are fought over which end of an egg ought to be shelled before it is eaten. The wars between short-enders and long-enders over this terribly urgent principle just go on and on....
Post Edited (2021-11-10 19:13)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2021-11-10 19:21
seabreeze wrote:
> Swift has his hero
> visit a country where internecine wars are fought over which
> end of an egg ought to be shelled before it is eaten. The wars
> between short-enders and long-enders over this terribly urgent
> principle just go on and on....
>
Wait... I never read Gulliver's Travels (a hole, I guess, in my literary education). Do you mean they ate partially shelled eggs?
Karl
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2021-11-10 19:52
In the UK, the eggs are boiled in water until the whites are solid but the yolks still runny (soft-boiled), and then placed in an ‘eggcup’.
The top is then shelled, or removed with a knife, and the egg eaten with a small spoon.
You can also dip small strips of toast, buttered to taste, into the runny yolk.
These pieces of toast are called ‘soldiers’, much to many children’s delight.
The fight between ‘big-enders’ and ‘little-enders’ has much in common with a great deal of the SL/DL discussion.
Tony
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-11-10 20:24
Tony - yes this is absolutely what the egg thing is, though I wouldn't have realised it didn't happen in the US, if you hadn't said it. Sadly though, nobody does it any more since we realised that we can catch salmonella from raw eggs. It's a shame really. The chickens are all vaccinated now, but since we discovered that it was a risk, the runny yolk has really stopped being quite such an appetising thought.
Seabreeze - I get the feeling that I am a definite double-lip person. I played single lip for three years and it hurts me a lot. Double lip doesn't. I have no idea why it's like that, but I really like the no-pain option. I also used to grip the clarinet as though my life depended on it, and flail my fingers around like a wind turbine. Since I switched to double lip, all that is gone. I hold the clarinet gently and use very minimal movement. I am even starting to be able to play fast pieces, which is very exciting, as I couldn't before. I think I must just be a double lip person. I totally understand that many other people may not be and I feel no need to convert anyone. I do like Dr Battipaglia's dissertation though. When I read it, I feel as though I have found my people.
The library wrote back and said this:
"Copyright in the US (and I see you are in the UK, and I don’t know about Mrs. Battipaglia) resides with the author, and in this case the author’s heirs. The intellectual property is hers to do with what she will. That is assuming, of course, that the dissertation was not later published in a commercially-available book, in which case the publisher may (or may not) have rights involved, depending on how the contract was structured. Please note that I am not an intellectual property lawyer, but I feel that I can say with some certainty that Sibley/Eastman/University of Rochester has no vested interest against promotion of this work."
So that's nice. :-)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-11-10 20:26
One odd thing about playing D6 up to C7 is that it feels very easy, with very little resistance. Whereas when I go back down to A6 and the E below there, and other notes round about there, I feel a lot of resistance and get tired from blowing. I'm not sure why that is.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-11-10 21:34
That's lovely. :-)
I still really like Carlos Ferreira's sound, but I feel as though it may be more to do with his air support than his embouchure. I would need to do some very serious work to get that kind of air support, if it was even possible.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-11-11 14:13
Here, for your viewing pleasure, is a video of me playing up to C7 double lip. Applogies in advance for the extremely shrill whistling noise.
(Also - In my head I look much younger.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIeqhlqaO48
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-11-11 16:07
I'm not sure why my C7 measures as an in-tune F on my tuner machine. That seems a bit odd. I think I am playing the fingering for C7 and getting G7.
Later...
I just fiddled around a bit and if I switch up from a 1.5 reed to a 2.5 and put the clarinet slightly further into my mouth, the C7 fingering stops producing and in-tune F and abruptly changes to produce and in-tune A. That's still not quite right though is it? It ought to be measuring as a Bb.
Here is the video of the note getting higher with more mp in my mouth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i035raZUhEA
Adult learner, Grade 3
Equipment: Yamaha Custom CX Bb, Fobes 10K CF mp,
Legere Bb clarinet European Cut #2.5, Vandoren Optimum German Lig.
Post Edited (2021-11-11 16:18)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-11-11 16:40
I just worked out that there are three different mouthpiece positions that produce three entirely different sounds, even with the same fingering. I think that must be what you mean by overblowing.
I videoed it in case anybody would like to see who doesn't already do this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvMBCv2qJMw
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2021-11-11 17:14
On a phone so I'm not seeing the video, but....
You are experiencing the the wonderful world of overtones. Same way a trumpet with three valves plays all 12 semi tones.
Here is a fun thing. If you block the end of your horn somewhere along one of your calves (a somewhat contorted posture) you can close everything (like a low E) and play trumpet calls.
Something to consider on what we in the States now call Veteren's Day (Armistace .....the 11th hour if the 11th day of the 11th month).
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-11-11 18:33
Gosh, that sounds very interesting indeed. I'll have to read up about that and try the trumpet calls. Thanks for explaining.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2021-11-11 22:10
Whether "trumpinet" or "claribugle," this way of stopping the bottom of the clarinet and blowing up the overtone series is a great for building up "chops" and getting to know the clarinet and its characteristic ways. Getting the overtones to sound involves more than just the action of the lips and jaw; it calls into play all the movements of the tongue and throat under the palate required to "voice" the instrument." You can learn to play the standard bugle calls on the clarinet this way, including "taps" and "reveille," and the one used to announce the start of the horse races.
Before going into the top tones of the altissimo, it's best to concentrate on getting good control, tone, and pitch on the lower tones. The highest altissimo may speak easier if you use a stronger reed than a 1.5. Probably a 2.5 or 3 would work best for that, but it may take some time to build the lung and lip strength to handle a stronger reed.
Finally, if the single lip embouchure works best for you, use it.
Post Edited (2021-11-11 22:16)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-11-12 07:48
Thanks Seabreeze, I will give it a try. I do kind of understand what you mean because I am learning to play the French horn to encourage my son along and it is all overtones I think. It seems to be a machine built entirely out of arpeggios anyway, and almost no fingering. I will see if I can do the same on the clarinet.
I did try single lip again today just to check if it would be better, and it still hurt my jaw a lot. I realise that I lose a lot of stamina in lip strength by switching to double lip but I seem to gain a lot more. My teacher says my tone is much better and was convinced from the first time that he saw me try double lip that it was better for me, so I think I am probably on the right lines to keep going with it. I don't want to put pressure on anyone else to do it. It just seems to suit me better, as my own specific mouthpiece suits me better.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-11-12 17:26
I just discovered a third kind of embouchure that is not quite normal single lip, and not normal double lip.
I have a very strong sling called a claritie sling, and I have modified it so it attaches the clarinet to my belt, and supports the weight, but also prevents the clarinet from being pushed away from my body.
In my new scheme, I set up as if to play single lip, but then use my right thumb to push the clarinet away from my body. That means that the clarinet is harnessed to my belt at the bottom, and pushed up against my upper teeth at the top. The clarinet has complete stability, even on C6 and no need for any kind of biting or tension in the lower jaw, because there is no weight resting on my lower teeth at all.
I have no idea whether this is a good idea, or just a recipe for RSI in my right thumb.
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The Clarinet Pages
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