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 The Second Big Lie
Author: SecondTry 
Date:   2021-05-12 18:17

Given that this is a forum on clarinet playing I won't cover what I think is the first more obvious and political one.

In case you're wondering what that first one is, let's just say that those who disagree with me refer to it wrongly as the big steal.

So let's talk about the second big lie iMHO....which Ursa brought up last week.

~~~~~~~

It seems that if some of my summer symphonic bands materialize, that face masks with slits in them to insert a clarinet mouthpiece and bell covers will be required.

As much as I would love to get back to performing, these steps are, medically speaking, offensive to me--not mind you because they limit my freedoms. I'd be glad to do them and more if epidemiological findings showed them to limit transmission of disease: in this case Covid.

But any clarinet player worth their weight in salt knows these steps to be nonsense window dressing. Aside from other instrumentalists within the group not subject to similar restrictions, we all know that air comes out of the next open hole in the instrument, which is only the bell for E3--anymore than is some bell cover necessarily going to be made of N95 material to trap the Covid virus.

A part of me wishes to protest this lie by not playing. The truth to me seems to be to limit playing to those who are fully inoculated.

Thoughts?

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 Re: The Second Big Lie
Author: Paul Aviles 
Date:   2021-05-12 19:41

I think this pandemic has unfortunately left many of us to figure things out for ourselves. To me, the issue in wind playing is NOT the amount of air going out at all (which in every instance is comparatively rather small and controlled).


The problem is taking in a huge gulp of air. If we had some practical way to visualize the movement of air around us, I am pretty sure we would see a copious amount of localized air being sucked in as we take a typical breath to get us through a typical phrase. So to my mind's eye though the stagnant air in a closed room may begin to be only slowly filled with Covid (when there is a infectious person present) anyone else in the room taking a huge breath will only increase their chance of bringing infected air into their lungs .


Personally I have always seen the mask as a way to SLOW the movement of air in and out rather than as a true filter.


All that said, we DO NOT know (and may never) how much those who are immune and/or those who are inoculated can carry the virus and spread it to others. So what MAY happen is that more and more folks who are fully invulnerable can keep spreading virus until it gets to someone who is susceptible, who can in turn get sick and die.



So as a matter of social conscience I would personally refrain from being present in crowded indoor spaces, or rehearsals, or performances until we as a nation get closer to our 80% inoculation goal. Otherwise we risk spreading a virus that can still be lethal and still mutate.








....................Paul Aviles



P.S. The real "Big Lie" is that Democracy is not fragile



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 Re: The Second Big Lie
Author: Tom H 
Date:   2021-05-12 21:41

I agree with limiting those playing to those who are fully vaccinated. Same for the audience.
I won't get into masks/bell covers/air coming out the holes, etc. as it's been discussed to death on the school Band Director forums and facebook groups I belong to. I don't think anyone knows the precise details on this stuff anyway, despite the apparent studies that have been done.

Most likely the band I play in in NYC area each summer will play concerts with distancing in the band & audience. I won't go (again) because we are behind here in Canada re vaccine rollouts because Canada can't produce it's own. Also, the border has been closed since March/20. Anyway, I would not take the chance on playing with only one vaccine shot (2nd in Aug.), masks or not. Not worth the risk, especially after avoiding Covid all this time.

I get frustrated when I read of school band directors moaning about it being the end of the world because they are not allowed to get their kids together to rehearse and perform. 580 thousand+ in the U.S.have died-- they should just suck it up. I haven't played a note in public since our last concert Aug. 1, 2019.
Oh, I also agree with you on big steal #1, and I was a Republican before I left the U.S.

The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--Austin Macauley Publishers
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Amazon, Sheet Music Plus
austinmacauley.com/author/heimer-tom
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet--Sheet Music Plus
(902)-225-3276

Post Edited (2021-05-12 22:20)

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 Re: The Second Big Lie
Author: Ken Lagace 
Date:   2021-05-12 21:44

Mother Nature is clever - in devising a virus that can change the world, and eliminating anything that isn't able to figure out a way to survive.
Mother Nature is boss now, and those who do what is better for the species will survive and have better offspring who will also survive.
Do what you want and you will end up on one side or the other, your choice.
This plan has worked for many millions of years for every living species on the planet.

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 Re: The Second Big Lie
Author: duncsleigh 
Date:   2021-05-12 21:49

There have not been 580 million covid deaths in the world. In fact there have been less than 1/100 of that number.

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 Re: The Second Big Lie
Author: Tom H 
Date:   2021-05-12 22:21

duncsleigh, Sorry, Thousand. I assume you know I meant that.
Doesn't change the point of my post.

The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--Austin Macauley Publishers
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Amazon, Sheet Music Plus
austinmacauley.com/author/heimer-tom
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet--Sheet Music Plus
(902)-225-3276

Post Edited (2021-05-12 22:22)

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 Re: The Second Big Lie
Author: SecondTry 
Date:   2021-05-12 22:47

FWIW I failed to mentioned that my summer concert series are outdoors. :)

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 Re: The Second Big Lie
Author: Fuzzy 
Date:   2021-05-12 23:07

I must admit to being confused by a requirement to be vaccinated in order to participate in ensembles. The vaccine should protect those who opted for it, and those who didn't opt for it should be free to accept whatever risks they want to. Even those who are vaccinated know that there is a very tiny chance of severe infection if they go interact, play, etc. It is a personal risk/reward decision.

Likewise, the audience. The audience should have no expectation that going to a public place and packing together for long periods of time will be any safer than it has ever been. They are responsible for their own decisions.

Fuzzy
;^)>>>

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 Re: The Second Big Lie
Author: Tom H 
Date:   2021-05-13 01:20

SecondTry-- Mine are outside too. But rehearsals inside, of course. Daytime outside wouldn't work as people have day jobs.
Fuzzy-- I think it's more a matter of people transferring the Covid to others. You know, the idea that it's not just worrying about what can happen to yourself. I'm not being critical at all, just saying they still don't know everything about it and who is "safe" --vaccinated or not, mask or not, etc.
Here in Canada there are still some who haven't been given the OK age wise to get even shot #1. And a lot in the U.S. don't have #2. So someone who had had the 2 shots (or one J&J, etc.) catches the virus, shows no symptoms, and sits next to someone in a band who has not been vaccinated. They pass it on and then it passes on again to others. I mean at some point I agree--when all have had the opportunity to get vaccinated, the heck with anyone else but one's self. I see 43% of Republicans still don't want the vaccine.

The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--Austin Macauley Publishers
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Amazon, Sheet Music Plus
austinmacauley.com/author/heimer-tom
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet--Sheet Music Plus
(902)-225-3276

Post Edited (2021-05-13 05:06)

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 Re: The Second Big Lie
Author: SecondTry 
Date:   2021-05-13 01:44

Paul: I agree that to some extent the pandemic has left people to figure out things for themselves when it comes to the risk they are personally willing to tolerate, but I also think the US has done its level best to present timely and accurate information about the pandemic, despite our former leadership, and especially in light of our current leadership.

Sadly, I don't think herd immunity will ever come as it's predicated on not only a large percentage of the world population being inoculated, but to get this way quick enough to minimize virus mutation.

More likely, IMHO, Covid, like Flu, will be a chronic condition. Hopefully new variants will not be diverse enough from the protection via shot to cause mortality levels like those we've seen, and yearly booster shots I suspect may become the norm.

Fuzzy: I can respect your beliefs that get inoculated should be more about personal choice, but I don't support this decision myself. This isn't sunscreen. Those who opt out of taking the shots are not simply accepting the risks they want to, they pose risks to others/society. I have no issue with any programs, public or private, which incentivize shots with privileges and sanction those who opt out with restrictions.

Were it, say, sunscreen, as much as I would urge the masses to use it, the absence of such protection, from premature aging to death by melanoma, and all in between isn't communicable (as sure as when wage earners others depend upon die, society often provides the safety net to the survivors--see motorcycle helmet laws.) Accordingly, I think mandating sunscreen would tip the scales unfavorable against the individual over society.

But communicable disease? The operative word in public health is public.

I felt like crap after the second shot. I'd do it again in a heartbeat if the symptoms were twice as bad. I consider it my patriotic duty, my worldly duty.

I respect that you feel differently, especially in terms of other people's rights, perhaps you too have or would get the shot(s).

Reply To Message
 
 Re: The Second Big Lie
Author: Liquorice 
Date:   2021-05-13 01:53

fuzzy, I agree with TomH. Getting vaccinated doesn't just protect you, but is also very effective in preventing you from transmitting the virus to other people. There is scientific consensus for this. If I want to go and visit my elderly parents, then I know that if I'm vaccinated I'm much less likely to be the one who gives them COVID. The same applies to playing next to my colleagues in the orchestra.

I'm not saying that obligatory vaccination is the way to go. But getting vaccinated is something that you do for society, not just for your own protection!

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 Re: The Second Big Lie
Author: Fuzzy 
Date:   2021-05-13 03:50

Liquorice,

I have friends who have chosen not to vaccinate due to problems they have experienced with other vaccines. I don't understand why they should be discriminated against.

Like I said - if you're not vaccinated, and you want to go out into society, then you're accepting the risks of doing so.

If, as Tom mentioned, not all folks have been okay'd for the vaccine, then those folks should remain somewhat isolated until they can get the vaccine.

The rest of the population should be able to mix as consenting adults.

This isn't a pro-vaccine/anti-vaccine stance, it is an anti-descrimination stance. Either we allow folks to make their own choices (and live/die by them), or we force others to live the way we want them to.

By the way - I've been very unconcerned about my own health through this entire thing. The only reason I diligently wore masks and followed every single rule - was that I might help/save others. I fully understand doing things for the good of society. I just don't believe it applies to the vaccinated/unvaccinated debate at this stage in the game.

Fuzzy
;^)>>>

[Edit: the above pertains to the USA - where vaccines are freely available...both in quantity and in cost.]



Post Edited (2021-05-13 03:52)

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 Re: The Second Big Lie
Author: Tom H 
Date:   2021-05-13 05:02

My wife and I got our first Pfizer recently. Years ago she had a pretty bad reaction to a flu shot and never got one since. But because Covid can actually mean death, she did not hesitate. Yes, there are a very few who really can't get the shot for medical reasons. There are also those who can't even touch a peanut. They will always have to be strictly on guard.

I agree completely with SecondTry's most recent post (wish I could figure out how to simply "reply" to a particular post. -- it has been explained to me....).
It is, IMHO, a social responsibility to get vaccinated as soon as it is your turn. But, once everyone who wants to be vaccinated has had the opportunity to get it, that is when my concern for my fellow man (or woman) declines. If one is just anti-vax or still thinks it's no big deal or even still a hoax, I say to Hell with them.

Meanwhile, we are in the middle of the period of change as far as playing goes. Trudeau aims for Sept. being when all Canadians who want to can be fully vaccinated. We can do another 4 months standing on our heads and just practicing in our rooms. THEN, the masks come off when playing and GO FOR IT.

The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--Austin Macauley Publishers
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Amazon, Sheet Music Plus
austinmacauley.com/author/heimer-tom
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet--Sheet Music Plus
(902)-225-3276

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 Re: The Second Big Lie
Author: SecondTry 
Date:   2021-05-13 05:20

Fuzzy wrote:

> Liquorice,
>
> I have friends who have chosen not to vaccinate due to problems
> they have experienced with other vaccines. I don't understand
> why they should be discriminated against.
>

I think they should be discriminated against because their actions discriminate against more than themselves, but innocents as well.

Most of the people I know with post vaccine "problems" felt sick afterwards. It happens. It beats dying or killing others.

The only possible true contraindication to taking the vaccine is prior anaphylaxis to some of its components.

> Like I said - if you're not vaccinated, and you want to go out
> into society, then you're accepting the risks of doing so.

...as sure as those people, through their choice, are also imposing these risks on others, against their choice. Sure, others know that there are people out there who are not going to get vaccinated, so the risks of "others" going out and about is informed, but it's not as if "others" can stay inside forever, and those refusing vaccination only facilitate the emergence of mutant strains.

>
> If, as Tom mentioned, not all folks have been okay'd for the
> vaccine, then those folks should remain somewhat isolated until
> they can get the vaccine.
>

Confused as to your intent: the non-vaccinated should isolate or go out into society if offered the vaccine but choose not to take it? You seem to say both are okay.

>
> This isn't a pro-vaccine/anti-vaccine stance, it is an
> anti-descrimination stance.

Perhaps we disagree on who is truly being discriminated against. Your focus lies with not forcing people to take the shot (who benefit from those that do.) Mine lies with the risks to others from those who are choosing to not take the shot. I have no issue being selfish with those whose decisions are selfish to others.

Either we allow folks to make
> their own choices (and live/die by them), or we force others to
> live the way we want them to.

This is a great argument for sunscreen, not a pathogen that can kill others. Laws already exist to limit the actions of people whose risks don't affect others, like motorcycle helmets----the theory being the State pays for the vegetative state that perhaps wearing a helmet might have mitigated. Mandating behavior
that limits other's risk is less of a leap. It's already all around us, from building codes to the need for driver's licenses.

>
> By the way - I've been very unconcerned about my own health
> through this entire thing. The only reason I diligently wore
> masks and followed every single rule - was that I might
> help/save others. I fully understand doing things for the good
> of society.

I'm glad you care. You just don't think others should be forced to care. I have no issue forcing them. They are benefitting from the willingness of others to get the shot, and they can get it too. For all the freedoms we speak of, not one of them can be enjoyed if you're dead.

I just don't believe it applies to the
> vaccinated/unvaccinated debate at this stage in the game.

Fuzzy: here's a link to some of the 45 mobile morgue trucks in NYC during the height of the pandemic. I think it applied last year in this time, let alone now.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/02/nyregion/coronavirus-new-york-bodies.html

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 Re: The Second Big Lie
Author: Fuzzy 
Date:   2021-05-13 06:30

Well, now that the conversation has gone a bit away from musical topics, I'll be happy to correspond with anyone pertaining to this topic off-bboard.

There have been many straw-man, anti-scientific posits in this thread. Pretending to know what we don't know only causes more confusion and harm, acting within that ignorance can cause significant damage. Lots of people have died in history due to some folks believing they know best what is good for society and forcing their views on others - always in the name of the "greater good."

I'd still like to understand how unvaccinated folks in a music ensemble pose a risk to anyone else that hasn't also accepted the risk willingly. Perhaps I misunderstood the topic.

Regardless, I'm leaving this thread as "agree with us and force people to conform" isn't a conversation I find to be productive or even moral.

By the way...this single year of inconvenience we've all experienced together - I (as I'm sure others among us) have lived it for decades, yet the person I care for is still with us - a testimony of my care, and the care of others - so I have no need for the morality preachers to indoctrinate me about the proper way of living with folks nearly entirely lacking an immune system, or what others must do in order to fit your personal whims. Masks, hygiene, quarantine - these are old hat for me, and I never once would dream of forcing others to change their lives to fit my situation or viewpoint. I'd urge you not to make assumptions.

Fuzzy
;^)>>>

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 Re: The Second Big Lie
Author: Liquorice 
Date:   2021-05-13 11:37

Fuzzy- I'm not to trying to force my opinion on you or force you to act in any specific way. I just see a glaring hole in your logic, which you haven't yet been able to address...

You wrote:

"Even those who are vaccinated know that there is a very tiny chance of severe infection if they go interact, play, etc."

and then:

"I'd still like to understand how unvaccinated folks in a music ensemble pose a risk to anyone else that hasn't also accepted the risk willingly."

I think you answered your own question already? Those who play in an ensemble that haven't been vaccinated pose a risk to the other members... even the ones who have been vaccinated. So how can you claim that this is just about personal choice and personal risk?

It's like smoking- smoking harms your own health, but we don't allow people to smoke in public spaces because it can harm other people too. Would you consider that to be discrimination against the smoker?

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 Re: The Second Big Lie
Author: Philip Caron 
Date:   2021-05-13 13:48

If a vaccine is 95% effective, as the Pfizer and Moderna ones are, then one in 20 vaccinated people who are exposed to the disease will still contract it.

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 Re: The Second Big Lie
Author: SecondTry 
Date:   2021-05-13 19:06

Philip Caron wrote:

> If a vaccine is 95% effective, as the Pfizer and Moderna ones
> are, then one in 20 vaccinated people who are exposed to the
> disease will still contract it.


Assuming that math correct Phillip we will still face ambiguity with what constitutes "contracting" Covid. Perhaps it means that the inoculated who are infected don't die, or have mild symptoms or are asymptomatic.

Maybe it means they don't shed the virus, or shed it as much.

So even if the 95% effective metric proves valid---and I'm not saying you don't already appreciate this--there's more than this metric to aspire to.



Post Edited (2021-05-13 19:14)

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 Re: The Second Big Lie
Author: anonrob 
Date:   2021-05-13 19:22

Here is an early study with some data. https://nafme.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/Study-of-Aerosol-in-performing-arts.pdf

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 Re: The Second Big Lie
Author: SecondTry 
Date:   2021-05-13 19:32

Fuzzy wrote:

> Well, now that the conversation has gone a bit away from
> musical topics, I'll be happy to correspond with anyone
> pertaining to this topic off-bboard.

You're right Fuzzy. Discussing Covid isn't like discussing alternative fingerings, but the pandemic effects are ability to perform, so it's closely related.

>
> There have been many straw-man, anti-scientific posits in this
> thread.

I know you don't want to discuss this further here but I really disagree. I've read through the posts---and I'm not finding much fiction or irresponsible rhetoric here. Maybe you'd be up to showing me where.

Pretending to know what we don't know only causes more
> confusion and harm, acting within that ignorance can cause
> significant damage. Lots of people have died in history due to
> some folks believing they know best what is good for society
> and forcing their views on others - always in the name of the
> "greater good."

All true but little has been said by anyone here that doesn't comport with the best available science. Sure, there could be long term negative effects of getting inoculated but odds are there are not, especially considering the alternative.

>
> I'd still like to understand how unvaccinated folks in a music
> ensemble pose a risk to anyone else that hasn't also accepted
> the risk willingly. Perhaps I misunderstood the topic.
>

First off, anyone choosing not to get vaccinated has not accepted the risk willingly because in that decision they have also potentially imposed risk on others without their consent. Your logic applies to sunscreen, whose choice to be used or not by one, does not directly effect others.

As to how the vaccinated could pose threat to the non-vaccinated, they (the vaccinate) can possibly transmit a variant of the illness that wasn't part of the vaccine, that was allowed to manifest itself precisely because those who you think accepted the entire risk (they didn't) incubated it through their lack of inoculation.

> Regardless, I'm leaving this thread as "agree with us and force
> people to conform" isn't a conversation I find to be productive
> or even moral.

This isn't clothes fashion as you know. The "agree with us" saves lives and involves minimal sacrifice and would be hard pressed to be seen as anything but compassionate; certainly not immoral.


>
> By the way...this single year of inconvenience we've all
> experienced together - I (as I'm sure others among us) have
> lived it for decades, yet the person I care for is still with
> us -

...fuzzy....this is irrelevant to why people should or shouldn't get vaccinated. I'm glad you're a good care giver and all, and that you appreciate immunocompromise, but the arguments for all to get inoculated are unaffected by your role as care giver here.

a testimony of my care, and the care of others - so I have
> no need for the morality preachers to indoctrinate me about the
> proper way of living with folks nearly entirely lacking an
> immune system, or what others must do in order to fit your
> personal whims. Masks, hygiene, quarantine - these are old hat
> for me, and I never once would dream of forcing others to
> change their lives to fit my situation or viewpoint. I'd urge
> you not to make assumptions.
>
> Fuzzy
> ;^)>>>

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 Re: The Second Big Lie
Author: Johan H Nilsson 
Date:   2021-05-18 00:01

I want to remind that logic is a micro aggression.
If repeated, it will turn into something else.

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 Re: The Second Big Lie
Author: jonok 
Date:   2021-05-24 09:01

> If a vaccine is 95% effective, as the Pfizer and Moderna ones are, then one in 20 vaccinated > people who are exposed to the disease will still contract it.

The more important point about the vacine is that vacinated people who subsequently get COVID are almost certainly NOT going to end up in intensive care, or even admitted to hospital.

I don't know why that fact isn't being put more extensively. THAT is the risk unvacinated people take for themselves. But the risk that unvacinated people end up clogging up the health system is the risk they put everyone else at.

Jonathan.

-------------------
aspiring fanatic

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 Re: The Second Big Lie
Author: Matt74 
Date:   2021-05-25 03:48

Below is from the Mayo Clinic. It defines "effective" as preventing symptoms, not preventing infection.

Summary: Different vaccines range from 66-95% effectiveness at preventing the virus *with symptoms*. You still get it, you just don't have symptoms. Effectiveness of each vaccine can depend on age. Apparently, it doesn't prevent transmission, except maybe among children:

"
Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine. The Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine is 95% effective in preventing the COVID-19 virus with symptoms in people age 16 and older. The vaccine is 100% effective in preventing the COVID-19 virus in children ages 12 through 15. This vaccine is for people age 12 and older. It requires two injections given 21 days apart. The second dose can be given up to six weeks after the first dose, if needed.

Moderna COVID-19 vaccine. The Moderna COVID-19 vaccine is 94% effective in preventing the COVID-19 virus with symptoms. This vaccine is for people age 18 and older. It requires two injections given 28 days apart. The second dose can be given up to six weeks after the first dose, if needed.

Janssen/Johnson & Johnson COVID-19 vaccine. In clinical trials, this vaccine was 66% effective in preventing the COVID-19 virus with symptoms — as of 14 days after vaccination. The vaccine also was 85% effective at preventing severe disease with the COVID-19 virus — at least 28 days after vaccination. This vaccine is for people age 18 and older. It requires one injection. The FDA and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) have recommended that use of this vaccine continue in the U.S. because the benefits outweigh the risks. If you are given this vaccine, you should be educated about the possible risks and symptoms of a blood clotting problem.

"

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/coronavirus-vaccine/art-20484859

I didn't dig around to find infection rates after vaccination, or if vaccinated people can transmit the virus.

- Matthew Simington


Post Edited (2021-05-25 04:08)

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