 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2020-07-25 20:58
Vientos Vintage in Spain joins the growing number of companies offering 3D printed clarinet accessories, including carbon fiber ligatures and bells. https://vientosvintage.com/store/clarinet-ligature-next-level-carbon-bb.
In a recent video, Ivan Villar Sanz plays their "Next Level Carbon" simple ring ligature, and I must say I am impressed by the delicacy and easy response he gets in the upper clarion at pianissimo levels. How much of this is due to the ligature is hard to say, but at least it didn't impede his efforts. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3OFxcjzREU. (I'd like to hear him play the last part in the 3rd movement of the Saint-Saens Sonata on this same set-up.)
Post Edited (2020-07-26 02:39)
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2020-07-26 02:54
Nice effortless playing indeed. Probably the instrument (Luis Rossi large bore?) helps also.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2020-07-26 03:29
Sanz, like his teacher Corrado Guffredi, plays a Backun (Canada) clarinet, but Corrado plays the Carbon Fiber model and Sanz plays a wooden MoBa model (with a Hawkins-Backun Corrado Guffredi (CG) Vocalise model mouthpiece of composite material).
Post Edited (2020-07-26 07:19)
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2020-07-26 04:32
3D printing has come a long way in the last few years. It's gotten to the point where even $200 machines can rival the quality of top of the line printers from a few years ago. Recently I've been printing a ton of clarinet accesories, and even an entire clarinet (Not including keywork):
https://www.instagram.com/p/CBmAqSjg8T2/
More on topic, I've been making necks for basset horn and alto clarinet from 3D printed wood composite and carbon fiber with great results:
https://www.instagram.com/p/CDClxUEAAmH/
I've found that when carefully finished, 3D printed accesories can actually respond much better that wood. The technology has certainly proved itself capiable.
In addition to Vientos Vintage, there's also Pereira 3D and Syos. Alex Simu (you may know him from his "tenor clarinet" he plays occasionally) is also planning on releasing necks for bass, contra-alto and contrabass clarinet.
The future of affordable high quality accesories certainly looks bright.
-JDbassplayer
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2020-07-26 07:30
I introduced a new 3D printed Bass Clarinet Mouthpiece and a new 3D printed Eb Clarinet Mouthpiece this week.
http://www.clarinetxpress.com/B4C.html
http://www.clarinetxpress.com/E4C.html
More coming soon.
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
847-266-8644
Post Edited (2020-07-26 17:00)
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2020-07-26 23:45
Grabnerwg wrote:
> I introduced a new 3D printed Bass Clarinet Mouthpiece and a
> new 3D printed Eb Clarinet Mouthpiece this week.
I tried a couple of your 3D printed Bb mouthpieces at Howarth last year.
How does the texture on the inside, created by the 3D printing, affect the playing characteristics compared to traditional blanks, which are more (you guessed it) blank inside?
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Author: Pereira3D
Date: 2020-07-27 09:05
I have prototyped a few brands of carbon fiber filaments with my designs (using PLA, PETG, ABS as polymer blends). CF filaments are pretty abrasive which reflected in the surface texture of the prints, and this also wore my nozzles like crazy. The sound ended up being a bit brittle in comparison to wood-composites, so I didn't go further with it. After using my barrel reamer, it actually made the sound much too bright. I tried using it for barrel rings as well, but I got more resonance from wood-composite and bronze-composite rings in the end. The stuff can be incredibly durable, though! And with the right printer settings, it can have a beautiful matte appearance.
Ryan Pereira
Pereira 3D Clarinet Services
www.Pereira3D.com
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2020-07-27 21:58
Answer to Johan:
I do not have a definitive answer yet. Obviously inner surfaces of clarinet bores, barrels, bells and mouthpieces have to be smoothed and polished to produce a clear tone. However, it appears to me that if one polishes too much the sound loses vitality or perhaps a better word is complexity.
Arthur Benade did some fascinating work in this area. I remember reading, some years ago, some of his unpublished notes on this subject. If anyone still has these I would love to see them again. He used to term "impedance" to discuss how a more textured surface would interact with the air stream rushing past, resulting in what many would call a richer or fuller tone.
Much of my experimentation is based around this concept.
But yes, to answer your question, I do believe that the texture of the inner surfaces affects the tone quality, both for good or for bad.
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
New Bb mouthpiece S4M-LE
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
847-266-8644
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Author: Ed
Date: 2020-07-27 22:15
It has always seems to me that a certain amount of "texture" in the baffle or bore seems to add some complexity as Walter mentions. I have tested some mouthpieces that were polished internally to an almost mirror like sheen, which seemed to have a somewhat harsh sound. Perhaps the texture and finish contributed some of that quality in the tone.
It would be interesting to do some studies on this. Some argue that material does not matter, only dimensions. Perhaps the finish contributes to the tonal qualities more than we consider.
Post Edited (2020-07-30 05:20)
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2020-07-29 17:22
@Walter: Thanks!
@Ed: The question of texture is different from the one of material. Material is about resonance while texture is about air flow.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2020-07-30 05:22
Yes, I understand the difference.
My point was that I rarely hear any mention of texture and the effects it may have.
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Author: donald
Date: 2020-07-30 08:49
There is almost no airflow in the bore of a clarinet, it is pressure waves that are moving the length of the bore...
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2020-07-30 12:38
donald wrote:
> There is almost no airflow in the bore of a clarinet, it is
> pressure waves that are moving the length of the bore...
The air flow through the instrument is the same as through your mouth. One funny bassoonist I saw had a pennant on his bell that went straight into the air every time he took the lowest tone.
When the air flow is concentrated at the tip of the mouthpiece or at a tone hole, the texture of the walls could play a role. I agree that far down in the bore, texture will probably play a negligible role.
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Author: donald
Date: 2020-07-30 16:12
Texture will still affect pressure waves, I was just pointing out the misconception being perpetuated. Even at the mouthpiece and barrel there is very little airflow - make a clarinet embouchure and blow against you hand, then move your hand 10cm away, then 15cm and you will feel very little. The air from you embouchure is being directed into a slot between mouthpiece and Reed that is between 1mm and 1.2mm so of course at that point it travels fast due to the compression, but once past that point the opening of the aperture into the mouthpiece and bore makes the actual air that is flowing very diffuse.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-07-30 16:43
I'm sure you've all seen this already, but it should be placed here for the record. This engineer and brass manufacturer explains why it is you can play using no air at all.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZvDvuxjHvU
In a past thread some of us had already tried this with clarinet and found perfectly workable results using a membrane at the bottom of the mouthpiece's tenon with the exception of some intonation issues (clearly the length of the bore of the mouthpiece is necessary for precise tuning).
So much for "blowing to the back of the hall."
................Paul Aviles
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2020-07-30 23:48
Paul Aviles wrote:
> So much for "blowing to the back of the hall."
Until the construction of instruments is fundamentally changed, it's a fact that the only way to increase the amplitude of the sound waves is to increase the air flow or somehow else increase the energy that makes the reed vibrate.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-07-31 00:27
Yes, it is increased energy, but from the video it is apparent that the energy propagated through the horn is the pressure wave (amplitude and frequency) of the air that is standing within the horn, not what we blow out our mouths.
If it were brute force of our air, there would be no reasonable explanation for mere mortals to get similar length phrases out of a piccolo versus a tuba.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2020-08-01 00:08
Paul Aviles wrote:
> Yes, it is increased energy, but from the video it is apparent
> that the energy propagated through the horn is the pressure
> wave (amplitude and frequency) of the air that is standing
> within the horn, not what we blow out our mouths.
Again, real instruments are not designed as in the video. Therefore you have to increase the air flow to play loud. And that air flow will go through the instrument.
Post Edited (2020-08-01 00:09)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-08-01 02:56
I don't see any other way to design a trumpet.
The point of the video is that the mouthpiece (or in our case mouthpiece/reed combination) is what initiates the pressure wave. So maybe ours is a semantic disagreement. Yes, there is more energy needed in the "initiator" to create a LOUDER dynamic (larger amplitude), no argument there. And yes, as a real world end result we blow harder (faster; more pressurized) to affect this change. However, the end result, once the mouthpiece/reed has initiated the amplitude, the amplitude propagates on its own whether there is more air present or not.
I guess I have to admit I was making a really stupid point regarding theory. But now that I think about it, could it be that "grunting" (when changing registers between two notes) is a function of the air (that doesn't need to be there) "getting in the way" of the pressure wave?
???????
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2020-08-02 11:59
A membrane near the vibrating source (reed or lips) with a tube leading away the air could in theory be used on every wind instrument.
The tone holes would have to be moved because the sound waves are not travelling "downwind" trough the instrument any more.
Such a solution would be welcome on bass clarinets and below, where air consumption is an issue. Unless you are Nicolas Baldeyrou it is very difficult to circular breath on the bass. Just adjust the tube leading away the air to create the resistance that fits you.
"Hissing" tone holes would definitely be gone since no air stream has to pass out of the tone hole past the pad. (Edit: Sorry, jumped too fast on this conclusion)
Of course there is a serious catch somewhere with this solution. Otherwise we would have seen it.
Post Edited (2020-08-02 20:56)
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Author: donald
Date: 2020-08-02 12:21
The "hissing" tone holes are NOT because there is air flowing out of them. It is because the pressure waves are being compressed by the tone hole, or their impedance is being interrupted by a pad that does not allow enough clearance (we refer to "end effect", and everybody understands that where the bell in concerned- but this same principle applies to tone holes and here "end effect" is being hampered by lack of pad clearance).
Yes it IS true that there is SOME "air-flow" in a clarinet, but by the time you reach an open tone it is very diffuse. By the time you are halfway down the top joint the airflow is so diffuse it is almost immeasurable.
I know no one believes anything I ever say on this stupid format, but just go ask a physicist. Having actually being involved in attempts to scientifically measure airflow I can tell you unequivocally that I am right. Sorry mate.
Post Edited (2020-08-02 13:32)
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Author: donald
Date: 2020-08-02 12:32
Ok imagine this...
Water is being pushed out a crack that is 1m big- you can push harder, and it will go faster as it is being compressed through an aperture.
Then imagine the SAME AMOUNT of water is being pushed though crack that is 14m big. Obviously there will be less resistance, and you will have less water per cubic metre. The longer the area past the aperture, the smaller the ratio of water to cubic metre.
In a clarinet air is being pushed through a crack that is between 1 and 2mm, but it then travels into a cylinder that is 14mm in diameter and 10 or 12cm before the nearest tone hole - from blowing into the 1mm aperture you will have the impression of resistance, you will have created airspeed through compression (which creates the energy to enable the reed to vibrate) but you are actually blowing quite a small total amount of air at any given moment. Once this enters a 14mm cylinder that is varying length, but more than 10cm long, you are actually blowing a very small amount of air per cubic cm. This is NOWHERE NEAR enough air to make a "hissing sound" as it comes out of a tone hole, trust me.
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2020-08-02 13:01
Donald, I trust empirical evidence, not people. You can be right about the hissing, where I speculated flow can play a role, especially in upper tone holes.
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Author: donald
Date: 2020-08-02 13:31
I right about everything because I have 1) scientific understanding of the principles involved 2) practical understanding from being involved in the process 3) I've actually been involved in experiments to measure the thing we're discussing.
trust your empirical evidence all you like, it won't make you any smarter (from the evidence you have presented us here).
Post Edited (2020-08-02 13:33)
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2020-08-02 20:49
Don't forget you are always modest and constructive too!
Those who wish can trust you and accept there is no air flow in the mouthpiece chamber, which is where the discussion started.
Btw, what you call "pressure waves" is nothing but oscillating air or oscillating flow. Same principles apply.
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