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 Comparison of 1960s Buffet R13 to D and K Series Evettes
Author: pdkbach 
Date:   2020-05-16 20:42

What are the main differences between these instruments? Do they all have the same bore measurements? Are they basically the same as the R13 from that era?
In terms of wood alone...back then there was only the top line R13. Today we have many high end models (Tosca, Divine, Prestige,
Festival, Vintage) getting the best wood...today's R13 is 5th or 6th in line... Back then three models!

It seems to me these clarinets are dismissed for students in favor of today's E11 model when, imo, these instruments seem to be far superior.

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 Re: Comparison of 1960s Buffet R13 to D and K Series Evettes
Author: jdbassplayer 
Date:   2020-05-17 02:10

I don't know where the myth that these are the same as the R13 came from but it's simply not true. The bore is completely different, often with a bore that's much closer to cylindrical than poly-cylindrical and usually (but not always) with less undercutting and different tonehole sizes and locations. Yeah they're good but unfortunately many times I see these being sold as "R13 rejects" or having an "R13 bore" which is not true and quite misleading. In my experience, after a good overhaul, a vintage R13 will usually play better than a K series Evette from the same era.

I have in front of me right now a 1955 R13 and a 1954 K series E&S.

R13:

14.8 mm at the top of the upper joint

14.6 mm at the bottom of the upper joint

E&S:

14.6 mm at both the top and bottom of the upper joint.

This particular E&S does have undercutting, but the toneholes overall are much smaller.

I don't know too much about the difference between the K and D series, but I know that I would choose an R13 over either of them.

-Jdbassplayer



Post Edited (2020-05-17 09:43)

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 Re: Comparison of 1960s Buffet R13 to D and K Series Evettes
Author: m1964 
Date:   2020-05-17 06:45

pdkbach wrote:

"What are the main differences between these instruments? Do they all have the same bore measurements? Are they basically the same as the R13 from that era?
In terms of wood alone...back then there was only the top line R13. Today we have many high end models (Tosca, Divine, Prestige,
Festival, Vintage) getting the best wood...today's R13 is 5th or 6th in line... Back then three models!

It seems to me these clarinets are dismissed for students in favor of today's E11 model when, imo, these instruments seem to be far superior."

I overhauled an Evette recently: while it is not a bad instrument, it is not comparable to my R13 (Prestige). However, the price is not comparable either.
It is probably at the same level as E11 clarinets, typically a lot cheaper than E11 so it would definitely make sense to buy one for a beginner, esp. if it is in good condition. The key work is very decent quality, equal to the E11 keys. Side Eb/Bb lever feels even better to me than the one on my Prestige.
The blowing resistance is similar to Buffets, at least on mine.
Sound quality is NOT the same, of course. The sound feels "empty", esp. if I switch from Prestige right away.
Still, better than the most, if not all plastic student models, and definitely equal, if not a little better than many student clarinets that are made of wood.
Of course, there are variations between the instruments, but I was surprised to see no wobbly keys or loose posts on a 50+ y. old instrument, and no stripped screws, etc.



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 Re: Comparison of 1960s Buffet R13 to D and K Series Evettes
Author: Ed 
Date:   2020-05-19 05:22

Quote:

I don't know where the myth that these are the same as the R13 came from but it's simply not true.


Yeah, just like half the used mouthpieces you find out there are Chedevilles!

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 Re: Comparison of 1960s Buffet R13 to D and K Series Evettes
Author: pdkbach 
Date:   2020-05-19 07:36

M1964 and Ed....

Please read this brochure

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 Re: Comparison of 1960s Buffet R13 to D and K Series Evettes
Author: pdkbach 
Date:   2020-05-19 07:44

M1964 and Ed....

Please read this brochure...

http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/download.html/1,270/E&S-30s.jpg

M1964....what was the serial number of the Evette you overhauled?



Post Edited (2020-05-19 07:51)

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 Re: Comparison of 1960s Buffet R13 to D and K Series Evettes
Author: donald 
Date:   2020-05-19 15:29

A decade ago someone started buying these off a certain website and importing them to NZ for overhaul/resale. One of my students bought a K series Evette that had really good intonation- better than any of the brand new (French) clarinets on the shelf. It was NOT a "reject R13" or with the same toneholes/bore as R13 (as others have noted above), it WAS however quite good.
I then went to the bother of test playing about 10 of these horns as they came in over the next 6 months (in each case, after a complete overhaul) and never found another as good as that one my student had bought. Most of the others, in fact, had glaring intonation flaws of a magnitude that dwarfed that of even a plastic student horn.
One was AMAZING, the others a waste of time. None of them appeared to be similar to an R13, or with same tonehole placement/bore.

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 Re: Comparison of 1960s Buffet R13 to D and K Series Evettes
Author: Jack Kissinger 
Date:   2020-05-19 21:32

jdbassplayer,

Is your Evette & Schaeffer clarinet a Master Model?

Thanks,
jnk

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 Re: Comparison of 1960s Buffet R13 to D and K Series Evettes
Author: pdkbach 
Date:   2020-05-19 21:54

To all above posted...
If you do a Google Image Search for Evette-Shaeffer clarinet brochure you will find several that state "...made in the Paris factory using SAME WOODand SAME BORE....!!" Also search on the board here and you will find the same brochure referenced. It IS NOT a myth...its in black and white in Buffet-Crampon brochures....!!

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 Re: Comparison of 1960s Buffet R13 to D and K Series Evettes
Author: jdbassplayer 
Date:   2020-05-19 22:05

pdkbach wrote:

> To all above posted...
> If you do a Google Image Search for Evette-Shaeffer clarinet
> brochure you will find several that state "...made in the Paris
> factory using SAME WOODand SAME BORE....!!" Also search on the
> board here and you will find the same brochure referenced. It
> IS NOT a myth...its in black and white in Buffet-Crampon
> brochures....!!

There were also advertisements from the same era saying that smoking was healthy. Ads are not a reliable source of information...

Besides regardless of the ad if you look above I actually measured the bore of two instruments from the same era with calipers that were just checked for calibration, case closed.

-Jdbassplayer

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 Re: Comparison of 1960s Buffet R13 to D and K Series Evettes
Author: Doug Leach 
Date:   2020-05-19 23:20

I'm sorry, but I would have to disagree and say not closed. The two horns you had available to compare do not help address the point at all. The R13 was from 1955. The year the polycylindrical bore was introduced. Your numbers are consistent with that. But the Evette Schaeffer you looked at was from 1954. This is pre-R13. If you had a Buffet from that year, it would have been about the same as the ES. The comparison you need to make is with an ES from after 1955. I'm willing to bet it will be real close to the Buffet.

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 Re: Comparison of 1960s Buffet R13 to D and K Series Evettes
Author: jdbassplayer 
Date:   2020-05-20 00:23

Here’s a K series like mine but from 1969, same exact measurements as my 1954. It even has the same logo as mine (not the “master model”):

http://www.clarinetpages.net/vintage-odd-brands/buffet/evette-schaeffer/evette-schaeffer-k21632

I think now we can say case closed.

-JDbassplayer

Edit: fixed link



Post Edited (2020-05-20 00:24)

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 Re: Comparison of 1960s Buffet R13 to D and K Series Evettes
Author: jdbassplayer 
Date:   2020-05-20 02:34

Interestingly enough, I was going through the clarinetpages.net reviews and it does seem that the Evette Master Model and E&S Master Model both have a very slightly poly-cylindrical bore. However the contraction is only 0.1mm vs 0.2 mm - 0.4 mm for an R13 depending on the year:

http://www.clarinetpages.net/vintage-odd-brands/buffet/evette-schaeffer/evette-schaeffer-master-model

http://www.clarinetpages.net/wooden-clarinets/buffet/buffet-r13/buffet-186756

What's interesting is that this is roughtly the same bore as a pre-R13:

http://www.clarinetpages.net/vintage-odd-brands/buffet/buffet-circa-1910-carl-fischer-ny

Now the pre R13 was listed as an "R13" in the Carl Fischer catalog before 1955, so it looks like the advertisement is "technically" correct, but insanely misleading to someone buying a clarinet in that era. It would be akin to saying "The new iPhone has more processing power than a Macbook Pro", without mentioning that you're talking about a Macbook pro from 10 years ago.

So from this we can probably generalize three things:

1) Non Master Model Evettes and E&Ss have a straight bore

2) Master Models have a semi-poly-cylindrical bore, similar to pre-R13s but NOT the same as a true post 1955 R13

3) Post 1955 R13s (True R13s) have a truly poly-cylindrical bore, much more pronounced than any of the other instruments made by Buffet at the time.

This does seem to support the anecdotal evidence that some Evettes are better than others, but R13s still seem to be superior.

-JDbassplayer

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 Re: Comparison of 1960s Buffet R13 to D and K Series Evettes
Author: Ed 
Date:   2020-05-20 02:40

I would tend to trust the info from the various techs who give actual info regarding bore, tone holes, keywork, etc. rather than marketing materials. I appreciate having that feedback.

At the same, time each instrument can vary. I am sure that if we gather 20 R13s we would find some variance. Perhaps it would be good to paraphrase Lee Iacocca and say "If you find a better clarinet, buy it"

Ultimately, I would not care what the brand stamp is, what matters is to see if it works for you. If it is a great instrument or suits your needs, go for it.

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 Re: Comparison of 1960s Buffet R13 to D and K Series Evettes
Author: Jack Kissinger 
Date:   2020-05-20 08:20

I have a copy of the promotional brochure linked above that I downloaded years ago. The filename I gave it at the time identifies it as a "30s brochure." (Actually, now that I look more closely, the above link is to a file labeled E&S-30s!) Note that the first sentence states that the Messrs. Evette and Schaeffer succeeded Buffet's original founders "nearly 50 years ago." Given that (according to a history of the Buffet company) the date of that succession was 1885, it would appear that the advertising copy was originally written prior to 1935 -- though it wouldn't surprise me to learn that the copy was repeated in later brochures. In any case, it is clearly not relevant to the poster's original question.

Based on the evidence I have seen, I agree that the E&S continued to be made with a cylindrical ("master") bore for at least several years after the R13 was introduced. Eventually, however, if memory serves, Buffet did adopt the polycylindrical bore for the E&S model. AFAIK, however, the student Evette always had a cylindrical bore.

I don't know exactly when Buffet first offered the E&S Master Model. Over the years, I have seen quite a few E&S clarinets with serial numbers in the 5000 - 10000 range and until now, without exception, they have all been designated as Master Models. jdbassplayer, if I read your posts correctly, however, you have an E&S in the K6000 range that is not a master model. This is an anomaly I can't explain. Starting sometime around 10500, or perhaps a bit earlier, non-master models begin to predominate. According to Buffet literature, which dates to around this time period, the E&S master model was not a special design. Rather, whenever a regular E&S clarinet performed exceptionally well in its final test, it was set aside and designated "Master Model." I've never seen a similar explanation of the Evette Master Model but, for me anyway, logic suggests that the same selection process held.

Re the myth that E&S (Master Model) clarinets were R13s rejected for minor flaws. As far as the K-series is concerned, it is just that -- a myth. However, there were a very very few R13s (or pre-R13s) made in the 1950s that were rejected and branded E&S Master Models. (I found reference to one with a 51xxx serial number.) The key to these instruments is that they are in the regular professional serial number series and therefore are 5-digits with no K-prefix.

So, as I see it, here's the difference:

1. The 1960s R13 had the new Buffet polycylindrical bore and were Buffet's flagship model.

2. The E&S was made in the same factory as the R13, presumably by the same technicians. At least the early 1960s E&S had the older Buffet cylindrical master bore and probably less hand-finishing than the R13. By the end of the decade, the E&S may have had a cylindrical bore. After around K10500, "Master Models" were regular production E13s that (subjectively) performed particularly well at final testing

3. (Starting in 1963 with serial number D1) The Evette had a cylindrical bore and was made in a different factory from the professional instruments, presumably by different technicians. From 1960-63, the Evettes are "Sponsored by..." models.

The 1960s are within just about everybody's definition of Buffet's "Golden Age," including Hans Moennig, the famous repair tech who coined the term.

I personally think the French Evettes from the 60s and 70s were better constructed instruments than the German E11s that succeeded them. The reason for preferring a newer E11 or E12 for students is the fact that clarinets do not improve with age. A 40 year-old Evette is risky. Generally you don't know where it's been or what damage or abuse it may have incurred over its life. There is also something to be said about new and shiny as a motivator for a young student. But if you can find one of these old clarinets in good condition, it can be a very good instrument at a fraction of the cost of a new E11 (or E12). MOO.

Best regards,
jnk



Post Edited (2021-08-17 05:16)

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 Re: Comparison of 1960s Buffet R13 to D and K Series Evettes
Author: m1964 
Date:   2020-05-21 10:20

Jack Kissinger wrote:

> ...
> I personally think the French Evettes from the 60s and 70s were
> better constructed instruments than the German E11s that
> succeeded them. The reason for preferring a newer E11 or E12
> for students is the fact that clarinets do not improve with
> age. A 40 year-old Evette is risky. Generally you don't know
> where it's been or what damage or abuse it may have incurred
> over its life. There is also something to be said about new
> and shiny as a motivator for a young student. But if you can
> find one of these old clarinets in good condition, it can be a
> very good instrument at a fraction of the cost of a new E11 (or
> E12). MOO.
>
> Best regards,
> jnk

Jack,
Thanks for the detailed history of Buffet/Evette/E&S clarinerts.
I am not sure how old is the Evette I got (serial number B14K), but it looks pretty solid to me. I agree that an Evette in good condition is as good any modern E11, esp. considering their prices.

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 Re: Comparison of 1960s Buffet R13 to D and K Series Evettes
Author: pdkbach 
Date:   2020-05-27 19:23

Re the myth that E&S (Master Model) clarinets were R13s rejected for minor flaws. As far as the K-series is concerned, it is just that -- a myth. However, there were a very very few R13s (or pre-R13s) made in the 1950s that were rejected and branded E&S Master Models. (I found reference to one with a 51xxx serial number.) The key to these instruments is that they are in the regular professional serial number series and therefore are 5-digits with no K-prefix.

....and were branded >>>ACADEMY MODEL<<<

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 Re: Comparison of 1960s Buffet R13 to D and K Series Evettes
Author: Aflick 
Date:   2020-05-27 20:54

pdkbach wrote:

> Re the myth that E&S (Master Model) clarinets were R13s
> rejected for minor flaws. As far as the K-series is concerned,
> it is just that -- a myth. However, there were a very very few
> R13s (or pre-R13s) made in the 1950s that were rejected and
> branded E&S Master Models. (I found reference to one with a
> 51xxx serial number.) The key to these instruments is that they
> are in the regular professional serial number series and
> therefore are 5-digits with no K-prefix.
>
> ....and were branded >>>ACADEMY MODEL<<<

I don't think all of them were branded ACADEMY MODEL. I have a E&S Master Model 54xxx without the ACADEMY MODEL branding.

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 Re: Comparison of 1960s Buffet R13 to D and K Series Evettes
Author: Jack Kissinger 
Date:   2020-05-28 07:45

No, they were not all branded ACADEMY MODEL. Vytas Krass gives a good summation in a thread from about 12 years ago:

http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=268725&t=268725

It would appear that the Academy model has had three incarnations:

1. the "bad bore" Academy Models
2. the R113 "minor blemish" models
3. the German-made model

Between the time of (1) and (2), a very few rejected R13s were sold as E&S Master Models. Aflick has one of these.


Best regards,
jnk

Edit: I see that Aflick also linked to the 2008 thread in one of his posts in the parallel "Master Model" thread that is currently running.



Post Edited (2020-05-28 07:52)

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 Re: Comparison of 1960s Buffet R13 to D and K Series Evettes
Author: joe englert 
Date:   2021-08-16 00:55

The greatest of them all Buddy Wright only used the golden age r13.s. what I heard , he would source out unplayed or very lightly played ones and use them...NOT any of the new ones...I also think these new names they put on them and the crazy price tags are for players with more money than brains...or talent.

9162945857

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