 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Nomenclature
Date: 2020-02-11 17:00
What advice can I give my beginner clarinet student who I have been teaching for around 6 months now, and is still sounding very, very flat. He has a Buffet Prodige clarinet and is using strength 2 Vandoren reeds. He is a very good student with regards to practising regularly, but has commented frequently about his 'flat' and 'thin' sound. I've advised him to maintain a good air-flow to support notes, and also to experiment with his embouchure although it looks pretty firm to me. I'm not sure what to do to help him and would value any advice please.
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Author: ACCA
Date: 2020-02-11 17:04
Tongue position? I have my students say the words "Key" and "cake" and feel how the back of their tongue arches up between their molars when saying these words. Then long tones with a good airstream specifically paying attention to tongue location.
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Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2020-02-11 17:52
Have you tried the instrument? Test it as he plays it. Wipe his mouthpiece and reed with peroxide to neutralize any germs before and after your test.
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2020-02-11 19:15
Try upping the reed strength. I usually start beginners on a 2.5. After 6 months on a 2, a 2.5 shouldn't feel too terribly different to the student.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-02-11 20:25
Reed strength as stated above will help. But if your student is headed in the right direction with embouchure and reed strength (nothing overtly incorrect) there is no reason not to seek out a shorter barrel. Buffet makes 64mm barrels but usually provides 66mm barrels with their horns. A 2mm difference will raise pitch up quite nicely.
...................Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2020-02-11 21:48
You don't mention his mouthpiece. IMO a #2 Rico (the usual starting reed) is too soft for any of the entry level mouthpieces around unless the mouthpiece is defective.
The trouble with too soft a reed isn't that it *can't* be played in tune, but that it *allows* the kind of sloppy, unformed embouchure that produces flat pitch and spready tone. A slightly harder reed, plus some kind of instruction to close the lips more firmly around the reed and mouthpiece, will bring the pitch up. Once I've gotten a student to firm up a little and they hear and feel the difference, all I need to do to keep them from reverting is to remind them not to let the tone get flabby.
I disagree with Paul that a shorter barrel is a reasonable solution unless you find when you test the instrument that it's flat even when played correctly. If the problem is a flubby embouchure, (1) I doubt that 2 millimeters will bring it up enough and still won't improve the tone quality and (2) even if it does improve the pitch, you're masking the real problem, which is immature technique. Better to try to develop the embouchure.
Karl
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2020-02-11 22:41
I agree with a slightly stronger reed. I use a Vandoren 2.5 and most pros consider that weak.
I assume embouchure and positioning is correct.
I agree that using a 64 barrel is probably not the answer. I used one quite often years ago, due to using various mouthpieces. With my VanD. 5RV moutpiece and those reeds I use a 660 barrel, keeping the 64 as spare in case I'm ever in a place where tuning is a bit sharper for some reason.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2020-02-11 22:50
Maybe you should just go the whole hog and start beginners on 5 reeds!
What is it with Americans starting beginners on floorboards?
It's bloody ridiculous.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2020-02-11 23:28
Oh, Chris, really! Floorboards? I don't know what mouthpiece you're using as a reference or what reeds you're envisioning, but calling a Rico #2 a floorboard is just insulting to many of the rest of us.
Karl
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Author: Nomenclature
Date: 2020-02-12 00:58
Thanks for all the replies so far. Student is just using the bog-standard mouthpiece that came with the Prodige which I know is not great, but would upgrading to say, a Vandoren 45, at this early stage really make a noticeable difference?
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2020-02-12 01:27
You'd have to have him try it. The B45 is probably more open than the OE mouthpiece he's using and may need more embouchure control. It depends on why he's flat to begin with.
I have no experience with young students on relatively open mouthpieces like the B45 series. They're more open than I would use for a beginner probably for the same reason that Chris doesn't like the idea of harder reeds, even though I think he overreacted to a half-strength increase. The student shouldn't have to overcome significant resistance just to get a tone.
But another quality I associate with open facings is that they are less stable of pitch. Jazz musicians use that to make bends, slides and other pitch effects. It might actually make a problem like the one your student is having worse. On the other hand, it might force him to firm up more. I just don't know.
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-02-12 02:21
Speaking as an American clarinet player I agree with Chris (thanks Chris!). Starting on a #2 strength reed is not only a good idea, I find it an imperative.
One of my students had a band director (a trumpet player) who would not allow any of his clarinetists to play anything less than a #3 strength Reed. The student, despite four years of playing, struggled with this strength (yes, I played the mouthpiece and even with her reed). Going down to a #2 1/2 opened her sound and improved everything about her playing.
Naturally the deaf ingrate band director and I had to go around several times on the issue before he capitulated.
Seriously there are LOTS of deaf band directors on this side if the pond.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2020-02-12 02:31
This student has been playing for 6 months and he did start on (and still plays) a #2. And besides, if a #2-1/2 is a floorboard, a #2 is still 1/4-inch plywood sub-flooring.
I don't start beginners on #3, either - it's too stiff. I just didn't understand (or accept) Chris's reaction to moving a kid from the #2 he's been playing for 6 months and drawing any equivalence between his moving to a 2.5 and starting everyone on #5s.
Karl
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2020-02-12 09:48
I'm amazed this is so contentious. I've started hundreds of beginners as a band director and at least scores as a private instructor. It doesn't take that many to quickly figure out what works if you pay attention.
Here are some of the general guidelines that work for me:
1) Have a good mouthpiece that's middle of the road - not too open, not too closed. No weird or unpredictable features. With true beginners I, like so many, prescribe the Fobes Debut. Mouthpiece shaped objects that come with most clarinets, including Buffets, should never be played by beginners except perhaps as an emergency back-up if needed. A student should expect to spend $30 on a decent mouthpiece if they want to sound good and play in tune.
2) Begin with soft reeds and progress as needed - quickly at the beginning and then at the pace indicated by the results the student is getting from there. I like Juno reeds to start with as the profile is designed to get sound EASILY and transition well to Vandorens, etc. after first good habits have been set. Vandorens will produce a BETTER sound but are often a struggle when used by a beginner. I have beginners get a 3 pack of strength 2 and one of strength 2.5 to start with. When the 2's are used up/broken, there are no more 2's. They play 2's for an average of 1 to 3 weeks. Starting on a softer reed allows the student to explore the relationship of pressure, air, and voicing without having to rely on pressure to do all the work. Starting on too hard a reed just means developing a good bite. Embouchure muscles and overall sensitivity take TIME to develop. I want the experience of producing a sound on the clarinet to feel as natural and easy as possible from the very beginning. I don't want to deny the student their best opportunity to learn about all this for themselves.
3) Voicing and pitch awareness need to be taught from the beginning. Some beginners play flat because the reed is too soft or old, but most play flat because their tongue is too low in the back. I know there are other approaches, but in America this is often the situation. When first producing a sound we start with hissing the word "key" and feeling the tongue connect with the top molars. It takes most students a few weeks to get the hang of this, but once it's set it's generally set to stay. They check the voicing by playing the barrel and mouthpiece into a tuner. We also sing quite a bit and play materials that have recorded accompaniments. Students are quite sensitive to pitch and able to make adjustments when trained in this way.
It generally takes a few months to a couple of years for a student to progress to a typical "mature" reed strength. When everything else is set up right this is not a hinderance to developing range or good intonation. Reed strength is increased according to what the student sounds like and not based on a schedule. Some who do very well move up quickly, some who do very well don't. There's not a correlation between using stronger reeds earlier and long-term success.
There's more of course, but those are my thoughts for now. Use reeds that are hard enough but not too hard. The sound should be natural, full, and stable - never forced or airy (hard reed) or wavery and thin (soft reed).
I agree that the student in question might be on a reed that is too soft at this point, but probably wasn't months ago. These other issues also need attention though! The clarinet is a system and each element affects the others. Treating a symptom rather than looking at the situation holistically can lead to "fixing" one problem by causing another. Once all the elements start to work reasonably well they tend to reinforce each other positively.
Anders
Post Edited (2020-02-12 12:12)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-02-12 21:02
Perhaps I have been a little more contentious than I should.......hot button issue for me.
Having said that though, a "mature reed strength" or "faster progression to stronger reeds" are concepts that are internalized by students that send them on a NUMBER frenzy. They seem to equate ("they" being students who take what we say out of context) reed strength with Grade Level, or Mastery Level, or some such indicator of an expectation for them to achieve.
It doesn't help when brass playing band directors (or just whomever wants to make their band teaching simpler or more cost effective) wants everyone to play the same mouthpiece and reed strength.
I preach to the choir
Mea culpa
.........................Paul Aviles
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2020-02-13 05:34
Paul, I'm sorry you're are surrounded by such people. The band directors here at all five high schools in the district and their feeders are great collaborators. The ones further away are all at least pretty decent as well. Same for the youth orchestras. It's GREAT for our mutual students and it makes all of our musical lives much more pleasant and productive. None of them, including the clarinetists, would ever presume to second guess a successful private teacher's recommendation to a student.
Few things give me more pleasure than seeing my students perform in their ensembles.
Anders
Post Edited (2020-02-13 05:43)
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Author: ACCA
Date: 2020-02-13 16:49
Some interesting divergence of opinions here on reeds. my 2 Grade 1- getting into Grade 2 students are both playing on Yamaha 4C mouthpieces. Anyone have insights on decent synthetic reeds that they could use as a set up from the rico no 2's they have been on. Neither parents nor me will blow £30 on legeres for them. But Bari/Bravo/Fibracell? Forestone? 2 1/2 any recommendations?
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Author: BethGraham
Date: 2020-02-13 18:10
Just wondering why you'd like then to shift to synthetic reeds, especially if the parents are leery of spending ££ on Legere which, at least in my neck of the woods, is the best synthetic option.
Why not just move up a strength in cane reeds and/or investigate other brands such as Vandoren!?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-02-13 23:59
I would say, as a current devote to the Legere European Signature reed, that it is more the trial period and thoughtful assessment of the OPERATOR that is required to fine tune what strength you need for Legere. Therefore (and I have been thinking about this A LOT lately) I'd advise sticking with cane until one has achieved a real mastery of the horn. ALTHOUGH, if you have a good strength that works great in Legere, $30 per one reed that lasts a year is much cheaper than $25.00 per box per month (at least by my accounting). Of course you have to make sure you don't accidentally destroy it as you try to put it in a reed guard while distracted by your BFF.
Vandoren would be great (V21s are really colorful and have backbone too!).
And though some of you seem to get Yamaha mouthpieces to work, I'd say go with a Vandoren M13, or a ESM MCK-1, or Fobes Debut (only $47.00 US dollars) rather than a 4c. I personally have NEVER had any luck with that mouthpiece other than as a door stop.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2020-02-14 09:36
To me Yamaha 4C's are "the best of the bad mouthpieces". Fit for doorstop use only compared to the Fobes Debut or Behn Overture.
The Fobes Debut is $28 and change on Amazon..... same price as the 4C.
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Author: ACCA
Date: 2020-02-14 15:06
Fobes Debut is closer to £40 on this side of the pond (UK), but I'll suggest it.
One of the kids has now tried a Bravo, which is at least no worse than the Ricos they were using, and they won't break as fast, which was my main issue.
Post Edited (2020-02-14 15:06)
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