 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: GBK
Date: 2018-12-12 01:08
Female flutist sues to get equal pay as male oboist.
Boston Symphony Orchestra, in a statement, defended its pay structure, saying that the flute and oboe are not comparable because, in part, the oboe is more difficult to play and there is a larger pool of flutists.
Very interesting article on principal player's salaries. (including Michele Zukovsky)
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/entertainment/music/orchestra-gender-pay-gap/
...GBK
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-12-12 02:50
I don't buy the argument about intrinsic differences amongst instruments (or instrumentalists). You look for a great musician to fill a slot, it shouldn't matter if that instrument is thought to be easier to play or not, or whether "good players" on that instrument are a-dime-a-dozen. The selected musician is deemed best above the other contemporary competitors and that is the end of the story. You can't go back and then reason away why you want to save some money on salary.
BSO needs to pony up the cash.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2018-12-12 04:14
You might want to pay more for a famous player. John Ferrillo is famous and Elizabeth Rowe isn’t.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: fernie121
Date: 2018-12-12 04:42
I’m confused. Isn’t Ferrillo paid more than most if not all the principal players in that orchestra? Including other men?
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Author: bradfordlloyd
Date: 2018-12-12 17:00
Isn't true equality and parity achieved when she is paid at or above the average salary of ALL principal players in the orchestra? Singling out the one highest paid person and deciding that you should be paid what that person is paid seems a little bit...well, self-centered.
Also, does seniority account for nothing any more? This is a woman at the early part of an incredible career...she will be paid handsomely when she has put in as many years and achieved the experience and earned reputation of Ferrillo.
Also, just a side note...meanwhile, the audiences and donor pool to pay all of these orchestra salaries shrinks...
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Author: Dibbs
Date: 2018-12-12 17:26
GBK wrote:
> Female flutist sues to get equal pay as male oboist.
>
> Boston Symphony Orchestra, in a statement, defended its pay
> structure, saying that the flute and oboe are not comparable
> because, in part, the oboe is more difficult to play and there
> is a larger pool of flutists.
> ...
Discrimination based on what instrument you play is OK then Just not gender, race, disability, religion, sexual orientation etc. I wonder if there is a flute-oboe pay gap in all orchestras.
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2018-12-12 22:29
The article seems to purposely take the reader on a ride with all sorts of twists, turns, and un-anchored statistics. However, the key take-away points for me were mentioned fairly early on in the story:
1. The oboist was actively recruited specifically for a known quality he already possessed, and which the BSO (greatly) desired to have.
2. The flutist was one of many "unknowns" (not specifically sought after) who struggled amongst others to become noticed/known through a tedious (blind) audition process.
That's a difference which makes any kind of meaningful comparison very difficult.
Fuzzy
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2018-12-13 00:48
Did everyone speculating read the article?
Ferrillo has been with the BSO three years longer than Rowe. Rowe has been featured performer more than any other principal and seven times more than Ferrillo.
Ferrillo supports Rowe’s lawsuit and clearly doesn’t believe his job is inherently more difficult than hers.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2018-12-13 03:13
Maybe they’ll lower his pay.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2018-12-13 03:50
It's actually not a lot of money considering this is a top orchestra and the real estate in the area is very expensive. Let the principal players get what they deserve.
Let's face it in this area you need 2 incomes to survive. But this has nothing to do with the lawsuit. If she signed a contract or if her contract is up for review she deserves the same or close to the same wages, however if some of the other players have been with the orchestra longer this does make a difference.
This is why I worked at Rico for so many years until I got sick from the pesticides. Rico paid more than orchestra positions, but it's not that way now. It was a lot easier work too and in my case much more fun. I still got to play a lot with orchestras after work. Rico's musicians are now college dropouts. Stinky players. This is another subject.
I feel the economy usually goes up about 3 percent a year on average. Don't yell at me. This is just an average rate for the last 20 years or so. Knowing this a player with the orchestra should make a shade more if he or she has been in the orchestra for 20 to 40 years. In fact a principal 2nd player with the orchestra might make a tad bit more than the principal player, who just joined the symphony.
The military bands work the same way. I went in as an E5 because it was a Washington, DC band but players with 35 years at an E5 position made double what I did. I left as an E6, but again someone retiring after 30 years got about $35,000 a year in retirement and he/she is only about 53 years old. This is when I was in, it's much higher now. Able to get another job perhaps teaching or playing in an orchestra and put in another 20 years as a musician adding to the retirement of $35,000. But I couldn't handle military life. When I went to work at Rico I was making triple that.
Military bands, the top bands pay about $60,000 a year, plus travel benefits which add up fast so they make close to top orchestra musicians. Free food for travel, things like that. The more family members you have the more money you make. Orchestras don't do this.
I see both sides on this lawsuit. I'm not sure who is right of wrong, but surely both instruments are equally hard to play if you are one of the best in the world. The competition is the same. So the salaries need to be the same if they were hired the same day or year. It should be structured just like the military. How good you are and how many years you've been with the orchestra. Plus bonuses such as solo recordings with the orchestra. Did one or both players perform any concertos? They surely deserve royalties and more money. This is a no brainer.
This is why I can't make a stand, but it surely is interesting. I totally disagree that one instrument is harder than the other. It doesn't matter.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2018-12-13 04:28
Bob, with all due respect, I couldn't disagree with you more.
I simply do not see how the the 2010 "Equal Pay for Equal Work" law applies in this particular situation.
When you stated: "I totally disagree that one instrument is harder than the other. It doesn't matter.", I was stunned. I totally disagree with you. It is a well know fact that the flute is easy to play and the oboe has the indisputable distinction of being the hardest instrument to play.
This brings us to the point of "equal work". If they both played the same instrument, this would be a "no brainer", it would be so easy to resolve. However, this is not the case.
To me, the "equal work" part is where the real distinction comes into play. Should Rowe be paid more because she plays more notes than Ferrillo? From my point of view, it's easier to play "a million notes", as stated by Ferrillo, when the instrument that is being played is well known as the "easiest to play".
And, as noted above, Ferrillo was "lured" with a higher salary, whereas Rowe was "chosen" from a large group of flutists. If Rowe feels she's worth a higher salary, I believe another symphony would have "lured" her, but, that has not taken place or it would have been noted.
I don't believe Rowe has a strong point of legal standing.
For me, it boils down to: Ferrillo cannot be replaced...Rowe can.
Just my opinions.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2018-12-13 06:48
Dan Shusta: please back up your assertion that flute is "easiest to play" and the oboe "hardest to play".
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2018-12-13 08:02
Those are certainly authoritative.
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-12-13 08:50
I think we are framing things "as they HAVE been." If you look at this situation with fresh, objective eyes, the first item is Ferrillo's pay. All that says is, the BSO is willing to pay X amount of money for a principal player. They leave themselves open for any other principal player to therefore argue that they too should receive that level of salary.........and I would agree. Just because orchestras USED to do stuff like that does not justify that behavior, and it certainly makes no sense in today's economy of "EQUAL PAY FOR EQUAL WORK."
Now today's economy is also pretty rough. Ever notice that orchestras are folding around the country? NOBODY makes money off of the sales of recordings anymore (and streaming?...please!) so it's up to drawing an audience for live performances (such as "A Night with Bernadette Peters," or "Live Harry Potter").
So yes perhaps orchestras will have to make the top dollars less, but what monies are available should be distributed more equitably.
And I just looked at subscription prices for the BSO. If you're paying $3,275 for a season's seat, is that because the BSO has an oboe player they stole from another ensemble? I doubt it.
.....................Paul Aviles
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2018-12-13 09:39
Paul, I believe I see it all entirely different from you. What I read is: the BSO is willing to pay X amount of money for a principal oboist. I see your response as a degradation of the instrument that is being played. It's almost as if whatever instrument he plays makes no difference. (Which is what I believe Bob Bernardo was saying above.)
To me, the instrument being played makes a huge difference and necessitates its addition into the "equal work" equation which, I believe, Rowe is leaving out. IMO, it's as if she's agreeing to what you wrote above and that is: "he's a principal player and I'm a principal player. Therefore, we both should earn the same amount of money."
Like it or not, I'm pretty sure we still live in the "equal pay for equal work" environment.
And, when I look at things in that perspective, IMO, she is going to lose. And, if she presses too hard, I believe she may even lose her position after her contract expires.
I simply cannot see how she'll be able to prove the "equal work" assessment.
Again, all of the above are just my opinions.
Edited for a spelling error.
Post Edited (2018-12-13 10:11)
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2018-12-13 10:07
The BSO currently employs 10 "principal" instrument players and they are for the: 1) Viola; 2) Cello; 3) Bass; 4) Clarinet; 5) Bassoon; 6) Horn; 7) Trumpet; 8) Trombone; 9) Tuba; and 10) Harp. (They even employ a "Principal" librarian!)
Question...should all of these "principal" instrument players receive the same pay as Mr. Ferrillo?
I don't think so.
What do you think?
Source:
https://www.bso.org/brands/bso/about-us/musicians/bso-musicians/full-bso-roster.aspx
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-12-13 13:11
So because there are so many good clarinetists (and we can be replaced at the drop of a hat), the principal position for clarinet in the Boston Symphony Orchestra should only pay $20,000 per year?
I guess that would be fine then.
Long live James Petrillo
........................Paul Aviles
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2018-12-13 18:15
Quora substantiates your position as well as Breitbart or MotherJones does in political circles. Probably less so.
Rowe has been the featured soloist more than any other principal and 7 times more than Ferrillo. Why does the BSO choose to feature such a replaceable performer when they have Ferrillo?
Maybe because her performances are well attended and she excels in those performances.
The BSO is certainly profiting from her efforts.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: richard smith
Date: 2018-12-13 21:28
join the military, if possible. total about $ 350,000,000 available a year, plus generous benefits, including free medical care for you and your family.
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Author: marcia
Date: 2018-12-14 01:01
>Those are certainly authoritative.
Oh.....do I detect a slight note of sarcasm?? ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
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Author: BobW
Date: 2018-12-14 01:26
Not all MLB, NHL, NFL or NBA players are paid the same
And they can not claim gender discrimination!
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-12-14 01:59
Michael Jordan would not have been a good match for the BSO.
Ya know, I was about to say that there is no single person in an orchestra regularly responsible for 80% of its evening's success, but actually there is........the conductor. Of course, just try to find out how much Andris Nelsons is making. But that's ok, HE deserves a hefty paycheck. HE draws an audience.
Someday it may be Marin Alsop. And she will deserve that paycheck then too.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: elmo lewis
Date: 2018-12-14 03:23
Flute players don't have to make reeds, the oboe job is more onerous.
Maybe the oboe player doesn't want to play concertos. After all, how many oboe concertos are there? (Not counting Vivaldi, et al)
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2018-12-14 04:47
>Flute players don't have to make reeds, the oboe job is more onerous.
Yes, indeed. Eugene Izotov of the CSO stated in an interview: "Every professional oboist makes their own reeds." Because oboe reeds are so sensitive to environmental factors, he carries 60 reeds with him and actually changed reeds 2 minutes before a performance.
I found the following to be very informative and authoritative in nature.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/music/ct-eugene-izotov-cso-oboe-20141113-story.html
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Author: fernie121
Date: 2018-12-14 06:34
Pay is set by the market. If she is unwilling to work for that pay she should find another job. If the BSO is willing to lose her than they won’t pay her more. If they thought her to be worth more, they’d pay more. They’ve decided Ferrillo is worth more, and that’s why he is paid more. Personally, I don’t think the oboe is “harder” than the flute. But it’s not about my or your personal opinions. We are not the ones fronting the money. In my shop, I pay some employees more than others. And if I had an employee asking for more than I thought they were currently worth, I’d tell them either deal with it or leave. That’s it.
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2018-12-14 08:58
The stats cited do indicate a gender gap in musician pay. It doesn't seem to really be about which instrument is played. For example, (from the article,):
"In the group listed in tax filings, there is an instance when the principal flute player is a man and the principal oboe is a woman in the same orchestra. St. Louis Symphony Orchestra flute player Mark Sparks earned $166,191 in 2016, according to the most recent tax documents; principal oboist Jelena Dirks doesn’t rank high enough to be listed on tax returns." If not being listed means the earnings are less, then so much for the oboe being harder or more important.
Gender perceptions distort reality in many areas. Unfortunately, money is another distortion. Too many people use dollars as scores in a social game, and thereby seek the last penny from every transaction. It's a kind of widespread insanity, one that in its more severe forms entirely dominates individuals' lives. People without the illness, who won't play the game, tend to have lifestyle compromises forced on them even for basic needs. That's the "market". I'm very cynical about corporate salary negotiations; despite surface discussions about merit and relative worth, greed tends to be the dominant factor on every side. Or the vague inborn fears that underlie greed.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2018-12-14 11:53
Philip,
Thank you very much for your illuminating post above. It helped to clarify things immensely in my mind.
Yes, I read the article but somehow missed the importance of the paragraph that you quoted above.
You're correct. It's a gender issue and not an instrument issue.
I believe I misled myself and possibly others by bringing up the 2010 "Equal Pay for Equal Work" law. Your quoted paragraph from the article entirely blew that line of thinking completely out of my mind.
I now see it strictly as a gender related issue and I stand corrected.
That's why I like this forum. I learn a lot...especially when I make mistakes.
Thanks, again.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2018-12-14 18:01
They are both great players. He was recruited from the Met and offered a huge pay package to switch orchestras, much the same as sports teams do. She won here job in a cattle call audition like the majority of orchestra players do. There's no reason for her to receive the same salary just like one player on a foot ball team doesn't get the same salary as a player that was offered a huge salary to switch teams. Now if she hasn't been getting the same "percentage" of increases as he's been getting that's another story and then she has a case in my opinion.
As far as doing more solo performences, a player can negotiate the "extra" pay when they are a soloist. If she doesn't get what she thinks she's worth in solo performance she should refuse to do it. This does not sound like a case of equal pay for the sexes.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2018-12-14 22:20
What bothers me about this case is the assumption that how much a person is paid is based on some immutable law of the economic universe, comparable perhaps to the properties of the elements as compiled in the periodic table. But so many economic decisions are not based on any such firmly established properties of nature but are rather arbitrarily established by the prevailing culture. They are simply social constructs, not immutable, objective properties. We cannot change the atomic structure of the element hydrogen because we choose to do so, but we can change the way people are paid if enough people and, more importantly, the "right" people, wish to do so. In the football trading analogy, how often do you hear a star athlete say other members of his team should get the bonanza deal he got, but in the Boston Symphony (BSO), that's exactly what the star oboe player is doing. He's actually recommending that the flute player be given parity with him. He's trying to change the system to be more equitable, and maybe his voice should have some weight in the matter and carry the day.
Post Edited (2018-12-15 00:57)
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Author: BobW
Date: 2018-12-14 22:44
There is no rhyme or reason to how people are compensated for their talent in this world.
look at the medical field
surgeons essentially have the same training
but different procedures are compensated differently
independent of the complexity of medical procedure or medical necessity
example Plastic Surgeons
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2018-12-14 23:24
seabreeze wrote:
> ... but in the Philadelphia orchestra, that's exactly what the
> star oboe player is doing. He's actually recommending that the
> flute player be given parity with him.
Just for the sake of precision, this is taking place at the Boston Symphony.
Philadelphia's principal flute is male and, I think, the most senior of the orchestra's principals now that Dick Woodhams (principal oboe until last June) has retired.
Karl
Post Edited (2018-12-14 23:25)
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2018-12-15 00:56
Thank goodness for the "Post Edited" feature on this blog! My fingers typed "Philadelphia" for "Boston," and I didn't catch it. I've returned to the original and corrected the error. Sorry for any confusion that lapse in attention may have caused.
Post Edited (2019-02-24 05:40)
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2018-12-15 02:04
On July 1, 2018, Massachusetts passed its updated version of its own statewide Equal Pay Law which was originally passed in 2016. My belief is that a 2 year, effective date, waiting period was included to give employers time to comply with the law. Also, it was updated to include new provisions to protect the petitioner. (Per my understanding)
The next day, July 2, Rowe filed her lawsuit.
In case you want to know more, the following link leads to 5 clickable link publications which (IMO) further expand on the details. (The first one appears to be a duplicate of the OP's posting and, yes, a fair amount of duplication is involved. However, (IMO), some new elements are included which helped me understand the situation better.)
https://adaptistration.com/2018/07/06/bso-lawsuit/
I added the following as an edit because I didn't want it to go to the top of the post listings.
What follows is, IMO, a highly extensive and comprehensive review of Elizabeth Rowe's complaint.
https://adaptistration.com/2018/07/13/breaking-down-the-elizabeth-rowe-complaint/
Post Edited (2018-12-15 09:37)
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2018-12-15 19:29
Does the law in Mass mean that if a man was hired at a certian salary, say 20 years go, and has received raises every year for his performance at what ever industry he worked at that if they hire an equally capable women to do the same level of work ten years later the women has to now get equal pay to the man no matter what the difference was at their initial hiring and the extra years of raises the male received BEFORE the women was hired? That just doesn't make sense. Especially if the male in question was recruited at a huge salary to come to their company from another company and the women many years later won the job through interviews, or in this case auditioning, against many other qualified people.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-12-15 19:42
Ed, there is such a mechanism, it's called inflation. In a few years, new recruits to the US Army will receive initial pay greater than mine was at retirement. I see your point about the "star pay," I just don't believe there is room for that in the symphonic career field outside of conductors and perhaps concert masters.
.............Paul Aviles.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2018-12-15 21:26
If I was the BSO I would get Jordan Peterson to argue their case.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2018-12-15 22:38
I don't know anything specific about the Massachusetts law. In most cases claiming gender discrimination that I've every read about, the plaintiff's burden was to show that the employer had followed *a pattern* of gender discrimination (or any other kind) in its policy over some period of time. In those cases, one employee's complaint wouldn't in itself establish a pattern. The employer can always offer some kind of alternative explanation about why two specific jobs aren't equal or the demands made on two specific employees aren't equivalent.
Mr. Ferrillo can afford to be magnanimous in supporting Ms. Rowe - any settlement in Rowe's favor won't come out of Ferrillo's pocket.
The article gives a lot of anecdotal examples to support a pattern of gender discrimination in both hiring and pay among American symphony orchestras, and there is some statistical evidence offered that points to gender discrimination over the orchestral industry as a whole. I may have missed it in the article - it's very long and goes in several different directions - but I don't see much about patterns specifically in the BSO's pay practices except that her salary is apparently fifth out of fourteen principals in the orchestra and that eight of the nine who are paid less than she is paid are men.
I'm not a lawyer, but I suspect that to win her lawsuit, Ms. Rowe will have to show that *the BSO* (specifically) is discriminating against her because she is female, based on a pattern of gender discrimination in the BSO's policies (not Detroit's or New York's or Colorado's). I'm not sure how relevant the national statistics that Mr Edgers (the article's author) cites will be, and I'm fairly certain the anecdotal evidence he collected about other orchestras nationally will not be.
I am a little puzzled about why the orchestra's management would try to defend itself by saying "that the flute and oboe are not comparable, in part because the oboe is more difficult to play," or that the principal oboist is *automatically* second in leadership responsibility to the concertmaster (there's no reason intrinsic to the oboe for this to be true) or that the oboe position is more important because the principal oboe is "responsible for tuning the orchestra" (most of the orchestra members these days have already tuned to an electronic tuner backstage - the oboe A is at best a final check - and the individual players tune themselves whether on or off the stage). These are really very silly arguments coming from people who should be more sophisticated about the art and the organization they administer.
Karl
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2018-12-15 23:18
Per the article which is in bold type:
54. The BSO discriminated against Ms. Rowe by paying her an above scale dollar amount which she is required to renegotiate to get pay increases, while certain males enjoy being on automatic pay increases.
"If accurate, this is going to be one of the most damaging allegations."
I agree.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2018-12-16 18:11
Dan, I agree if males are getting automatic pay increases yearly and she isn't that's discrimination. When I was in the other BSO, Baltimore, every one received the same dollar amount raise when ever scale went up no matter how much more or less anyone was paid. Scale was the minimum so if it went up $10 everyone automaticlly got $10. Of course people can try to negotiate more.
Paul Aviles, that's how life works in many industries including orchestras. This has nothing to do with inflation. When a player is hired in an orchestra they are offered a salary and can try to negotiate more or accept what's offered but can't be less than scale - minimum. Principals are always expected to be offered more as may be experienced players coming from other orchestras. Every orchestra does it their own way. When i was in my BSO our contract had minimum percentages stated for principal and "solo" players, like bass clarinet, english horn etc. If an orchestra wants to attract a player from another orchestra, as in the case of the oboe player, they can offer them anything they want. I know this happened with Morales seveal years ago with the NY Philharmonic but despite the incredible salary they offered him he decided to remain in Philly for a variety of personal reasons. I assumed Philly offered him a nice increase to remain as well.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: EaubeauHorn
Date: 2018-12-16 22:44
My opinion doesn't matter to the BSO. What I do worry about is that since she has made the move to legally challenge pay, her ability to be hired elsewhere may be impacted because she will be labeled a "troublemaker." Which, whether you want to believe it or not, is incredibly common when women do not accept their lower pay status. It's the same thing as happens with race.
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Author: John G.
Date: 2019-02-04 08:47
What ever happened to "if you don't like how much (little) you're being paid, find another job"? She signed a contract to perform with the BSO, correct? Then she hears some principals (I assume there are both male and female principals) make more than her. I wonder if she inquired internally within the BSO before running to a lawyer and playing the gender card?
If an employer (music business or any other) deems an employee is worth a pay raise to retain, they do it.
Sorry. I'm just sick and tired of people running to lawyers when they get butt hurt, regardless of gender, race or anything else.
My opinion might not be popular with some, but so be it.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2019-02-04 09:59
John G, if you’d bothered to read the article, it says:
“Her lawsuit came after years of appealing privately to management”
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2019-02-04 20:45
I’m just sick and tired of people commenting on topics when they haven’t read the source article and/or the comments.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: John G.
Date: 2019-02-21 07:56
Well "Loquorice" and "Tobin", excuse the hell out of me. I still stand by my previous post/comment. If ANY boss doesn't feel you deserve a raise, find another freaking job......period. "After years of privately appealing to management", huh? If anyone is that miserable about their pay or job status, I find it strange they'd stick with their current job. I sure as hell wouldn't. For the record, I couldn't care less if it's a male or female, black, white, Asian, French, whatever.
Hope I covered things to your satisfaction.
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2019-02-21 10:14
Nobody actually cares what you think. While you were busy criticizing her unwillingness to find an equivalent job (nearly impossible), she was busy teaching a settlement with management BECAUSE she pushed this issue legally.
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Author: gwie
Date: 2019-02-21 13:00
This was a helpful read:
https://www.mass.gov/service-details/learn-more-details-about-the-massachusetts-equal-pay-act
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-02-21 17:45
Where social progress is concerned it is easy to miss the forest for the trees ("we've always done it that way before"). I would paraphrase Ruth Bader Ginsburg for those missing the flutist's dilemma, "What sort of world do you want to see for your daughters and granddaughters?"
...............Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2019-02-21 19:06)
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2019-02-22 02:20
John G., I hope you'll consider the following:
-Elisabeth Rowe reached the absolute top of her field. The number of similar jobs in the entire US can be counted on one hand. When a player gets that kind of job with a top orchestra, they usually stay in it until retirement. So finding another "freaking job" comparable to the one she has isn't all that easy.
-If you believed that you were being discriminated against and receiving less pay because of your gender, would you really just run off and find another job?
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Author: fernie121
Date: 2019-02-22 06:29
If she really is being discriminated against based on gender, than the issue is beyond just her reaching a settlement. Those responsible should be held accountable so they don’t do it again.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2019-02-22 11:33
I just wondered if I could thank you all for putting this topic on the board and discussing it so thoroughly?
I think that giving the subject airtime, and really rigorous analysis, is incredibly valuable. It is a big help to the young female musicians who must be coming through the ranks now.
I am a female academic scientist, on parenting leave, and on here as a hobby clarinetist. The same issues apply in science as in music. Effectively, if I wanted a better salary, I had to move to a new job (or country, or continent), and that kind of mobility is not always easy.
If I had been able to read discussions like this one 20 years ago when I was starting out in science, then I think my career decisions would have been better informed, and I would have been really glad to have the insight.
Thanks for discussing it all on here. This is great!
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Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2019-02-22 18:01
Settled;
https://www.npr.org/2019/02/21/696574690/top-flutist-settles-gender-pay-gap-suit-with-boston-symphony-orchestra?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=20190221
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Author: Alexis
Date: 2019-02-22 19:19
I know its not the central issue here, but trying to say that one instrument is more difficult than the other is a fool’s errand.
You could justifiably argue that the relative ‘ease’ of the flute compared to the oboe results in the flute being given more ‘difficult’ and complex parts, thereby negating any difference.
And you could also argue that, while one instrument may be easier to make a ‘good’ sound on initially, the level of refinement required to win an orchestral job (particularly in a blind audition) is so far removed from that, it makes such comparisons meaningless.
I’m glad the case has been settled!
Post Edited (2019-02-22 19:57)
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Author: John G.
Date: 2019-02-23 22:57
Author: J. J.
Date: 2019-02-21 10:14
Nobody actually cares what you think. While you were busy criticizing her unwillingness to find an equivalent job (nearly impossible), she was busy teaching a settlement with management BECAUSE she pushed this issue legally.
Hey J.J., I couldn't give a flying _ what you think.
xo
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2019-02-24 02:36
Not back to add anything substantive, or a recognition that Rowe and the orchestra settled, just more worthless commentary:
Quote:
I couldn't give a flying _ what you think.
The feeling’s mutual!
James
Gnothi Seauton
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The Clarinet Pages
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