 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Robert Sales
Date: 2018-06-14 20:36
In the two bars before rehearsal number 18 in the first movement of Mahler 4, the score specifies that the the third clarinet should play bass clarinet in Bb, but the part says bass clarinet in A.
Apart from the question of which clarinet to use, the notation is exactly the same in both the score and part, with a key signature of 2 sharps (as opposed to the two other clarinet parts which are definitely in A and have 3 flats).
A few bars before this, the 3rd clarinet is instructed (in the score) to take the bass clarinet in A. However, given the key signatures, it would appear that Bb is intended here.
My confusion is that I've played this in rehearsal (and i believe in previous performances) as if written for A (i.e. transposing down a semitone), and no one has commented. It also looks as if whoever played this before also interpreted it as being in A.
Does anyone know for sure?
This is my first post to this group - apologies if this has been asked before, or if I'm posting incorrectly.
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Author: ebonite
Date: 2018-06-15 02:17
Last time I played it, I did those bars in Bb (i.e. ignoring the bass clarinet in A instruction). It sounded better to me that way, although the harmony is very chromatic in that section, so arguably either might work.
BTW, on IMSLP, there is a very useful transcription of the first movement part, written for only Bb clarinet and Bb bass clarinet:
http://hz.imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/f/f3/IMSLP39625-PMLP58739-mahler4_BbBcl_part_mvt1.pdf
In that part, those bars are written as if the original part were for Bb bass clarinet.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2018-06-15 05:43
The part is intended to be played on "A" bass clarinet, as you will see the Bb clarinetists also switch to their "A" instruments at that time. So you have to transpose it. A short passage, so easiest to just 'flat' each note.
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Author: ebonite
Date: 2018-06-15 13:35
David Spiegelthal wrote:
> The part is intended to be played on "A" bass clarinet, as you
> will see the Bb clarinetists also switch to their "A"
> instruments at that time. So you have to transpose it. A short
> passage, so easiest to just 'flat' each note.
The problem is that there is almost certainly a typo in the part. Either the instruction "Basscl. in A" is wrong, or some of the notes are wrong.
If you 'flat' each note, then the written F#, last 8th note of bar 237 will be played as F natural, sounding concert-pitch Eb. This would result in a C major 7th chord with both a major and a minor 3rd, which sounds quite un-Mahlerian. If you play it as written for Bb bass clarinet, the harmony sounds more plausible.
Another point is that there is a manuscript draft in IMSLP
http://hz.imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/3/3e/IMSLP279458-PMLP58739-GMahler_Symphony_No.4_mvt1_msdraft_BSBMusMS22734.pdf
The relevant passage is on p.16 of the pdf document. Although the instrumentation is different from the final version, the harmony matches the one that you would get if you played those bars as a Bb bass clarinet part.
Patrick
Post Edited (2018-06-15 13:46)
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Author: ebonite
Date: 2018-06-15 13:49
Attachment: drawing.pdf (110k)
BTW, here is the relevant section in an arrangement for piano duet, with the notes corresponding to the bass clarinet part highlighted in blue (I hope the attachment works!).
The arranger has assumed that the part is for Bass clarinet in Bb. If you play piano, you can try out the different versions by playing the section with the blue notes as written, or a half-step lower.
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Author: Robert Sales
Date: 2018-06-15 15:09
Many thanks, that's been really helpful. I'm convinced by ebonite's reasoning (and particularly liked the link to the manuscript on IMSLP). Will try this out in Bb pitch at next rehearsal...
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2018-06-17 15:59
To respond to ebonite's last post, when I played Mahler 4 earlier this year, and flatted the offending notes, it seemed to sound fine. There may be several different editions floating around.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2018-06-17 17:42
I'm not home now to look at my copy but I've played this many times with the BSO and many good conductors and don't recall making any changes from the printed part.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: ebonite
Date: 2018-06-18 00:55
Yes, this is actually quite an interesting case, because apart from that one note (last 8th note of bar 237 which clashes), the harmonies sound more or less like Mahler whether you flatten the notes or not (try it out on the piano). However, based on the draft manuscript, I think the non-flattened version is what Mahler intended (i.e. the instruction "bass clarinet in A" is a typo). This also fits with the fact that the bass clarinet part is written in the key of D at that point (two sharps), while the other two two clarinet parts (which ARE in A) are written in Eb (three flats). If the bass clarinet part was intended to be in A, you would expect it also to be written in the same key signature as the other clarinets.
Of course, there may be editions where the bass clarinet part is written in the same key signature, with the notes half a step higher. In that case, it would be correct to flatten the notes.
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Author: qp
Date: 2018-06-19 05:59
Attachment: mahler 4 mvt 1.JPG (112k)
I recently performed this - see attached the Universal Edition extract from the part I used.
In this edition any parts for A bass clarinet (or even C clarinet for that matter) were split and so you were provided with both a Bb bass and A clarinet part in one system.
Look for the harmony in the harmony in the first clarinet and in the bassoons. In this edition I heard no problems.
John.
Edit: I'm not sure if this section is originally for A bass clarinet or not anyway. I just assumed not because the editor did not split the system like for other sections.
Post Edited (2018-06-19 06:01)
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Author: ebonite
Date: 2018-06-19 11:24
Attachment: mahler4.jpg (107k)
qp wrote:
> I recently performed this - see attached the Universal Edition
> extract from the part I used.
>
The part I used (and probably the original poster) had the same written notes, except it said "Basscl. in A" instead of "Basscl. in B" (see attachment). As mentioned above, I assumed it was a typo, and played it as written.
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The Clarinet Pages
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