 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: mproper2009
Date: 2017-10-18 02:12
Sorry for such post name, but was in store in Germany, trying to purchase a R13 for my teacher as he loves R13, to my surprise all R13 from factory was set up so afful. that I could not imagine.
Man this is 3K clarinet and pack of 6 of them are not sealing properly. What is wrong with this company.
My CSG come from a factory, and was excellent player, may be even better then I am at this stage.
If this is expected how then is to select a right Buffet in store??
Tomorrow will make 1 more round this time to Thomann, and hope they set up this clarinets before seling them
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Author: Roxann
Date: 2017-10-18 02:31
I just had to spend $700 to get my R13 to seal properly. A lot of the tone holes were very rough. The pads didn't fit well into the tone holes. When you spend close to $4000 for an instrument, wouldn't you think it would be in perfect shape when it left the factory? If you purchased a brand new car and had to put a bunch of money into it to make it perform properly, you wouldn't stand for it!
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Author: ClarinetRobt
Date: 2017-10-18 02:55
Apparently someone is putting up with paying an additional $700 for an inferior product. Until we, the clarinet mafia, gets fed up with Buffet, nothing will every change.
I'm done with them. Many others too. When they lose enough customers, they'll change...maybe.
~Robt L Schwebel
Mthpc: Behn Vintage
Lig: Ishimori, Behn Delrin
Reed: Legere French Cut 3.75/4, Behn Brio 4
Horns: Uebel Superior (Bb,A), Ridenour Lyrique, Buffet R13 (Eb)
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Author: gatto
Date: 2017-10-18 02:58
I would advice to go to a store where the dealer is also a repairs person or even instrument maker. In my experience (in Germany) the horn will be adjusted during the buying process without additional costs. I can easily believe that a horn fresh from the factory is far from being perfect. And the adjustments should be made by a professional, who usually does not sit in the average (internet) store.
By the way, I would not expect to find an R13 in a german store. If not ordering it in advance.
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2017-10-18 03:44
I know that Lisa Canning has work done on all of her clarinets (including making them seal) before she sells them and does not charge extra. That being said, it is not the same as having them "set-up".
Steve Ocone
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Author: Ed
Date: 2017-10-18 03:49
They do it because they can. They are the dominant maker and people will put up with it because they want to play their brand. Years ago some of the car makers grew careless about quality control. It was not until other makers began to challenge their dominance that they decided to step up their game.
Over the years I have tried a number of Buffets, including in their showroom. Many have been barely playable. I have tried Yamahas in shops where I opened and unpacked the box myself and the instrument was set up so well that I could have walked on a concert stage with the instrument.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-10-18 04:28
I know. This is a very sore subject. One of their double cases was bending the keys on the Bb clarinet. The response I got from the Florida factory was "We don't warranty the cases," so long story short, I switched to Yamaha's. It took about 8 months of trying assorted horns but I really like the CSVR's. They play right out of the case. No messing around. They seal. Every horn I tried sealed. So I am now a Yamaha Artist. The keys feel good. You can get a set of horns new for about $5000 or so. Probably $2500 less than Buffet, after you spend all of that money fixing your set of Buffets! Maybe more.
Buffet never offered me to become a member of their Artist program and that is OK. I just wanted a case that didn't bend the keys! So they lost me for LIFE! After 43 years of playing on Buffet's. Wouldn't you think they would care?
Pretty sad. I even offered to help them out. Not a word from them. Stay with Yamaha's you will be just fine and you will be very happy. You will get a beautiful sound, a better playing upper register and a full sound that will fill any hall.
Not long ago just about every major symphony member played on Buffet R13's. It's no longer that way anymore. When will they begin to look at the numbers and fix the problems?
I'm sorry you went through this, but the CSG is a decent horn. Check out the CSVR's. Several symphony players use them. They are that good. Also look at the SEVR's, I haven't played on them but people like them a lot. They are slightly more expensive. But the CSVR's will surely meet your expectations. Best of luck.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2017-10-18 05:04
Wow this seems to be a pervasive problem. I just wrote a comment on the R-13 I just sent back to Woodwind and Brasswind. I'm ordering another one from them in the greenline. They are great to take stuff back, but I'm hoping this one is good.
On the one I sent back, the bell wouldn't fit onto the lower joint and it sounded terrible.
I may go to Yamaha if this doesn't work out.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-10-18 07:26
Maybe we should nickname the Buffet's The Lemon Clarinets until they start making them right. The music stores need to start sending all of them back. Everyone of them with a lemon sticker on them. If the stores stands behind the players maybe Buffet will shape up. When the stores run out of horns and refuse to accept leaky horns then the quality might go up. Buffet needs to start firing some people starting with the president/CEO. The company is in trouble. Bring back the 1960's R13 bore. Stop screwing around. The Yamaha's are so great. Every horn plays. They tune well. Buffet is living in from the past and other makers have caught up with them and past them with wonderful quality control. Look at the great Selmer line of horns. No one is saying anything bad about them! The Signature is a very fine instrument.
We didn't ask Buffet to change the bore in the 1970's. Buffet shoved the new R13 model down our throats and they don't tune or play well. The bore is too big. You've had 30 plus years to make a good R13 and have failed. It's time to fix your mistakes. Instead Buffet makes a $10,000 new model such as the Divine and discontinued it because the players don't want a dark dead horn. All of that wasted wood. All you have to do is bring back the 1960's Buffet R13 bore. It's that easy and some techs that can seal a pad. Seems so easy. I don't get it.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2017-10-18 07:53)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2017-10-18 07:43
>> has work done on all of her clarinets (including making them seal) before she sells them and does not charge extra. <<
Quoting the general idea as opposed to referring to anyone specifically.
I tried selling instruments (not Buffet) for a very short time and gave up quickly. To get them to a condition I felt I could stand behind would require me to sell at a price higher than others.
I guess it's possible that Buffet profit margins for dealers are such that they allow some extra cost lost but still remain high enough to justify it. If I'm not mistaken Buffet has MSP but only in some countries (not here AFAIK).
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2017-10-18 09:17
Bob wrote:
"Check out the CSVR's. Several symphony players use them. They are that good. Also look at the SEVR's, I haven't played on them but people like them a lot. They are slightly more expensive."
I've been told by my local retailer that the SEVR's are priced the same as the CSVR's, they are just not readily available yet. Even the Atelier only had a single SEVR A clarinet a few weeks ago.
I agree with the sentiments above. I'm done with Buffet for the foreseeable future and on board with Yamaha. I played many brand new CSVR's at the Atelier and they were all finely finished, tuned, and adjusted - only very subtle differences in the sound due to variability of the wood. Really top notch instruments.
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Author: GenEric
Date: 2017-10-18 10:40
I've tried a couple of R13s in my music store. The music store I went to claims they pick out the best R13s in Florida and adjusts them. However, even with the "cream of the crop" clarinets, all 5 of them were totally different from each other. One was extremely resistant and another had really sharp throat tones. Being $3500, I was honestly underwhelmed. The only thing I liked about it was the case.
The store also has a Yamaha CSGII that was quite an interesting horn. It had a wonderful upper register. However, I decided not to get it because of the inconsistency of the tone since the lower register didn't pop out as well as the upper. Even with the medium long mouthpiece, lower register sounds dead. Also, the barrel was astonishingly short. My teacher and I were concerned about the length so we decided not to buy it. I don't know if it has to do with it being a German clarinet. If anyone could explain, that would be great!
Post Edited (2017-10-18 10:41)
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Author: Klose ★2017
Date: 2017-10-18 12:11
In the past, R13 was the top professional model and now it is, in my opinion, just a semi-professional model. So I think it is understandable it is not as good as it was. I am definitely not a fan of Buffet but I think we should not expect too much from R13 anymore.
Post Edited (2017-10-18 12:19)
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Author: Niclas.e.gustafsson
Date: 2017-10-18 12:28
I too have changed to CSVR. Tried 3 different horns and they all played excelent! Tiny differences in timbre. But all equally good. Well in tuned with a Vandoren BD. Found that other mpc (older vandorens in particular) are specifically targeted at Buffet and their intonation issues.
LOVE the sound i can get!!
And the funny thing. Tried a good pair of Prestigues after spending 6 months on the CSVR. Couldnt stand them. Cant believe i even liked them one bit. And i’ve played Prestigue for years..
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-10-18 13:01
GenEric - Good question. The CSG is a German designed clarinet. But the bore is larger than most German made horns. I've measured them. The latest model is the CSG111. The bore is a straight bore, unlike the French style tapered bores. There is a few players using them, but the more popular model is by far the CSVR. The CSVR A clarinet is by far the best A I've ever played on. It doesn't have the stuffiness of a Buffet. It is a real dream to play on and feels more like a Bb. Take a serious look at one or a set of these. Loren kitt just passed away. from the National Sym and he used these horns. We have John Yeh with the Chicago Sym playing on one. I think someone with the San Francisco Sym is using one, the Montreal Sym, a mess of the Burbank movie studio musicians. The list gets longer everyday. The Buffet loyalty is dropping fast.
I'm glad to see more and more players trying out Yamaha's. Then buying them. This business of going to Florida and hand picking Buffets is not cool. The Buffet's should already be playing great. It is just crappy workmanship. The people at Buffet don't care. Fire them. So we don't care either. We should not support them. That's why so many players are buying Yamaha's. They are simply great horns. The upper registers cannot be beat. Buffet has never made such a great upper register. Playing something like the Copland Concerto on an R13 is scary, on the Yamaha it is a blast. The notes pop right out. Try one of the Spohr Concerto's on a Buffet and then switch to a Yamaha. I bet you will buy a Yamaha right there on the spot. It makes clarinet playing fun again.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: gatto
Date: 2017-10-18 16:00
@ Bob Bernado
>>the Divine and discontinued
Can you please give any references for this claim? I can not see any hints elsewhere that Buffet discontinued the Divine.
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Author: gatto
Date: 2017-10-18 16:07
@ Brenda Siewert
>>On the one I sent back, the bell wouldn't fit onto the lower joint and it sounded terrible.
One should not forget that wood is "working" over time. Such things happen, in particular if the horn came fresh from the factory into a different climate. I would say this is a dealer's problem. The dealer has to provide the final set up. Of course this is only possible if the dealer is a professional technician.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-10-18 17:10
I've never been taken with Buffet's factory set-up - it seems bench time at the finishing stage is kept to a minimum and increasing use of cheap and cheerful materials to shave a few minutes off finishing time is evident.
You'd expect that on a beginner level instrument, but not on an expensive model like the Tosca whose build quality and finish is nowhere near up to the standard you'd expect for a high end clarinet.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2017-10-18 19:27
When I mentioned the bell not fitting, it was not because it was tight. It would not go on all the way. Not a problem I got a full refund.
Today my Greenline arrived. It sounds wonderful. Thankfully I use aftermarket tuning barrels because....guess what...the tuning barrel (not because the cork was tight) lacked about 2mm going onto the top joint. It slid on and with a thud came to the end of going onto the instrument. Yes, a tech could fix that...but I don't use the standard one anyway and my Backun and Muncy barrels fit great.
But, the feel in the hand and the sound is spot on. It just doesn't instill the kind of faith in Buffet I used to have in past years.
The Yamaha Allegro I borrowed from the music store would make a great backup instrument or a really fantastic one for a student going into high school. I'm not selling it...it's on loan to me...so it's going back to the store today.
In the past I blasted Yamahas...guess I need to repent. If this Greenline hadn't worked I was going to the upper level Yamaha.
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Author: echi85
Date: 2017-10-18 20:25
I agree with the quality control problems at Buffet. I've tried about a dozen new R13s in the past few years and found most of them have sealing problems. However, Buffet is still by far the dominant brand. Sure you have some big names playing other brands but they still are overwhelmingly the clarinet of choice. Look at their list of artists:
http://www.buffet-crampon.com/en/artist/?instrufilter=14
The idea that Yamaha or Backun or any other brand has a growing presence in the American clarinet community is not backed by any evidence. I think it's simply confirmation bias. If you look at the list of people winning jobs, they are all playing Buffet and many are playing Vandoren for that matter.
Personally, I think Buffet makes a lot of duds. However, when you find one that is great, it's really great, even if you have to spend a little more to fix it up.
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Author: MartyMagnini
Date: 2017-10-18 22:25
echi85 wrote:
> If you look at the list of people winning jobs, they are all playing
> Buffet and many are playing Vandoren for that matter.>
Simply not true. Many of them are playing Buffet -maybe even most. but not all. Not even close. And if you look at the all-stars of the clarinet world, many of them are playing Backun or Yamaha instruments these days, and a few Selmers thrown in. Certainly more than in years past.
I've played Buffets over the years, and some of them were wonderful instruments. I have no doubt that they still make some wonderful instruments.
Sadly, however, I can no longer recommend them to students, due to the quality control issues. And I won't be complicit in letting them get away with such poor quality control by taking brand new instruments to a repair person to get "set up" correctly. NOT when you can get a great instrument from Backun, Yamaha, Selmer, or Ridenour and be confident that it will be set up correctly right out of the box. That's just me.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2017-10-18 22:32
No one mentioned that new Buffet R13s come with single skin pads from the factory which could leak. Of the two new R13s I've bought in the last 20 years, they both had single skin pads which I promptly replaced with good new pads. Both are great instruments. The R13 Prestige Bb I also bought plays great on it's Gortex pads, but needed some adjustment to fit my large fingers. The R13 Prestige bass clarinet I recently bought needed absolutely nothing, although it did come from Howarths.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2017-10-18 22:38
I just got off the phone with the man in charge of inventory at a large chain of music stores here in Texas. I told him about the two Buffets I just tried and how many people are finding big problems. He said he knew some of the problems, and it would hurt the market for Buffet for sure. He also agreed the upper level Yamahas do not have such problems with quality control. I asked him to get one of them for me to try.
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Author: TomS
Date: 2017-10-18 22:47
If you are looking for an R13, consider only the greenline version. I need an instrument to use in crummy conditions ... and I think the composite Buffets are more consistent and play better ... I like mine just fine ... but agreeing with others, my lowly Yamaha 650 is better built, tunes better (especially the high register) and the high register does really pop. I often use the Yamaha in wind bands, especially if I am playing 1st/solo. From highest D-sharp to super C it works well ...
The greenline Buffets have clean tone holes, and therefore better pad sealing ... I have cork pads on the top joint. And the material should be more consistent, therefore less variations in sound.
If I had not recently spent my disposable budget on Ham Radio stuff and electronic test equipment, I'd purchased a CSVR ... but I do wish I could get them in plastic or hard rubber. Maybe next budget cycle ...
Listen to the latest Clarineat Podcast ... Brad Behn suggests that a hard rubber clarinet of his design and branding may be in the future. A Selmer Signature or CSVR in vintage hard rubber ... doesn't that sound interesting?
Tom
Post Edited (2017-10-18 22:55)
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2017-10-19 00:39
It really depends on the quality of the rubber. Some current makers of rubber clarinets are less than honest when they say highest quality rubber when in fact it is not.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2017-10-19 02:15
This latest Buffet was a Greenline.
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Author: gwie
Date: 2017-10-19 02:51
I for one applaud the fact that we are seeing so many different brands of clarinets come into more common use.
I attended a concert of the Chicago Symphony on Monday night (they're on tour in California at the moment) in stellar program of Schubert and Schumann, and Stephen Williamson soloed in the Mozart Concerto. The blend, balance, articulation, and tone quality of the clarinet section is just amazing when you hear them in person! And everyone in the section that night was on a different make...Williamson on Selmer Signature, Yeh on Yamaha CSVR, and Smith on Buffet R-13.
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Author: echi85
Date: 2017-10-19 04:54
MartyMagnini,
Who in the past few years have won jobs on non Buffet instruments? Of the ones I know, they all do. Recent memory is Cleveland, the Met, LA Phil, Jacksonville, North Carolina, Nashville, Cincinnati, Kansas City, Detroit, Toronto.
I don't really pay attention to the bands but I imagine they are similar.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-10-19 10:45
I think the guy that won the LA Phil job is playing on a Guy Chadash clarinet. I met him about 3 months ago. A very nice man Russian I think. Young and talented. I think he was from the Met. David Shifrin was using Yamaha's for several years before going with Backuns. But I'm not paying $21,000 for a set of those clarinets.
As far as the Chicago Sym, I think Greg Smith is using older R13's. Not something new. He is toying with testing the Yamaha's. I'm not sure if he will. So a lot of Buffet players are using older R13's from the 1960's. These horns have at least tripled in price. All of the other models have gone down in value. Another major clue for Buffet to get their act going. The R13's back then were $300. A new Buffet now drops $1000 in value as you walk out of the music store. Silly Buffet! At the same time Yamaha's are holding strong.
It is also extremely hard to pick out a quality Buffet when the horns leak. You may be playing on a very fine horn but it sounds horrible. With Yamaha you know right away what you are getting. You only have to play on 2 or 3 horns. They all sound sweet!
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: HANGARDUDE
Date: 2017-10-19 15:28
I have been playing on a Buffet Festival Bb for almost 3 years now, and frankly I have rarely been happy with it. It has somewhat soft keywork, and it sounds uneven and stuffy. I'm having a hard time controlling the instrument. This contrasts with the Festival A I tested at Howarth 2 years ago, which actually sounded great and was fun to play.
Like many I'm getting increasingly intrigued by the Yamaha CSVR, but my teacher hates [last generation]Yamaha clarinets... though she has not tested the CSVR or SEVR yet.
Josh
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Author: MartyMagnini
Date: 2017-10-19 15:55
echie85
Many of these artists have won positions in the last 5 years. These are some of the biggest names in the clarinet world. There are other very big names in the clarinet world playing Buffets. My point is that Buffet is not the only professional option now, as it used to be. I see their share of the clarinet world going down, not up. They need to start paying attention to customer concerns and complaints.
https://centerstage.conn-selmer.com/artists?i=CLARINET
https://backunmusical.com/blogs/artists?page=2
http://www.yamaha.com/artists/windinstruments/woodwinds.html?CTID=5070300
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Author: echi85
Date: 2017-10-19 16:43
Boris is a buffet artist:
http://www.buffet-crampon.com/artist/boris-allakhverdyan/
Bill Hudgins is playing a relatively new R13. You can hear him talk about it here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okTYQIOUb3Q
Personally, I know two big name players shopping for new Buffets right now.
MartyMagnini,
I understand your point about that many great players play non Buffet clarinets. However, I can only think of one player in the pages you linked that has won a job in the past 5 years. I agree that Buffet has a lot of issues. I myself have been considering other options, but the fact remains that it's by far the dominant brand. Yes, you have some big players on other brands, but most employed orchestral clarinetists play Buffet.
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Author: JamesOrlandoGarcia
Date: 2017-10-20 10:07
echi85-
Sidenote: If you're going to get involved in a discussion. Why not use your real name?
As far as a lot of very good players including many who have WON auditions in the last few years, yes, many of them play on Buffet. But do you really think they're walking into the standard music store and finding an acceptable professional Buffet clarinet? Not a chance! Those of privilege in the clarinet world get access to the finest instruments and what is left over for the most part, is sh*t. Also certain highly renowned teachers have specifically seared into the brains of their students that the only way they will be sucessful is with a Buffet in their hands. Everything else is only a clarinet shaped object.
I can say with confidence that Yamahas you'd order delivered to your house will be as good as those used by the members of the San Francisco Symphony. Can you really say the same about a Buffet?
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Author: echi85
Date: 2017-10-20 17:07
JamesOrlandoGarcia,
My name is Eric Chi. I had thought that information was in my profile, although I don't quite see what it adds to any discussion.
Many of the audition winners in the past few years have been up and coming players. Some of them students right out of school. I don't think they have any special privilege over everyone else.
In fact, the only way to ensure you get an instrument of choice is to go to the factory in Paris or to the showroom in NYC. I've been to both and there are still instruments there that I would still choose not to purchase from an aesthetic point of view. I do think there is a difference between ordering an instrument from a national chain like Music & Arts and a more reputable retailer like Muncy or Weiner. You should also know that Buffet doesn't sell directly to consumers. You have to go through a dealer. So even if you find an instrument you like in Paris or NYC, it has to be shipped to a dealer of your choice. You can't call Buffet and ask them to ship you their best instruments no matter how famous you are.
I have already said many times that I agree with the quality control issues at Buffet. My point is that Buffet is far and away the preferred brand of clarinet despite their problems. FWIW, Carey Bell is a Backun guy now.
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2017-10-20 23:22
Echi85, as I have been happy to call him, has been my BBoard brother on this issue for years. Every single time we bring up the fact that the vast majority of audition winners in recent years have been Buffet, the conversation shifts to a different issue. It’s never seriously disputed because it’s a fact. That alone doesn’t mean that Buffets are better, or their quality control acceptable (it isn't), but it destroys this notion that the high-end of the clarinet world is shifting quickly.
Yes, many notable and ESTABLISHED artists have switched to become Backun artists. There are a few reasons for this, but I will not get into all of them. I respect the players who have gone that route for now. But the fact remains, the winners of one of the only remotely objective vehicles we have today are playing Buffet. Many are coming right out of school (read: USC and Rice) and do not have any sort of special access.
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2017-10-20 23:54
To be honest, I've somehow arranged - or perhaps learned to cope - with my Buffet purchase. Mine hat a very maladjusted pad when it was brand new, making the lower joint unplayable.
All I'll say is that you can get bettery quality, whether it's the wood, the keywork or of course the QC from other brands, so go ahead and buy them.
Buffets aren't bad, however any musician shouldn't dwell on an "OK" Instrument when they can get better ones, meaning they have to research and test them!!
For example, the few tones I could play with a new Leitner + Kraus clarinet (german system, small maker) convinced my so entirely, that I wonder why people still buy Yamaha, which at least in their German Versions are awfully basic and don't even produce that characteristic, warm tone. Plus, the keywork on the L+K is quiet as a whisper.
The L+K was so entirely superior to let's say a RC Prestige, while the L+K should be WAY more expensive to make, that you'd think 5000€ for that one is a steal vs. the Buffet for 4000€. Why do people buy this? I don't know. Maybe they're misinformed, sure I was when I decided to switch from German to Boehm. Not that I'd regret that, but somehow I was under the impression back then, that Buffet would make the best clarinets for the money and that there wasn't much to compete with them. Well, now I know better.
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Author: Klose ★2017
Date: 2017-10-21 00:24
Kalashnikirby, to me, 857/847II are of same quality with LK, Dietz, Wurlitzer etc. Tried all of them, there is not too much difference. Furthermore, you should know that 857/847II were developed with some top German clarinet players who play Wurlitzer and they also consider the difference is minimal (well, there is difference but there is no way to say which is better as people have different preference of sound).
Post Edited (2017-10-21 00:58)
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Author: Klose ★2017
Date: 2017-10-21 00:42
Back to the topic of this post. I see a lot of people blame Buffet mostly for its R13 model. Please note the price of R13 is less than half of its top model. At the same time, by looking at them, the difference between its top model and R13 is only two keys. Poorer quality control certainly contribute to the price difference. To me, it seems very clear that Buffet wants people to know that with this amount of money, you can only get this quality from us. If you want good instruments, buy our top professional models. So from a marketing point of view, there is nothing wrong with Buffet. Let's think like this: if R13 is still super and can match all the needs of pro players, who will spend double amount of money to buy their top models?
Post Edited (2017-10-21 01:01)
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2017-10-21 02:37
So many massively successful “misinformed” performers. I’ll bet they'll doubt their choices after reading posts like these.
Post Edited (2017-10-21 02:38)
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2017-10-21 03:07
Klose, I was aware of that, unfortunately I only got to play the 657-24 II as the best German System Yamaha clarinet. I'm also aware that their top-line models undergo very different R&D, so I'm eager to try out the CSG III.
I'd only say that the price of a 857 is a bit too high considering the size and possibly efficience a company like Yamaha can produce at, so I'd support a smaller, local maker in that case. Oscar Adler produces some very fine cheaper models for both German and Boehm system.
Other than that I'd agree with you and have to apologize that I said Yamaha made inferior instruments. I was more refering to the 657 and 457, but then this is an unfair comparison. It's still hard to believe how many excellent makers we have in Germany and their clarinets don't differ in quality. Anyways, one should take a day off or two and visit different shops. Please don't buy a clarinet on the internet if you want to spend 3k+ unless a short trial period is possible. Also, don't buy the 457-22 II if you ever want to play on the German system.
The more or less European version of the R13, the RC was revamped a few years ago. Having tried one I wasn't unhappy about the changes, but I still believe there are better instruments for the same money. In fact, the YCL-CSV set itself apart from what I was used to expect from Yamaha, so I wondered if they have different factories and technicians for their better line of instruments....
Generally speaking, a new, out-of-the-box instrument should always seal properly - there's no apology nor explanation for Buffets practice and I wonder how they get away with that.
Again, you're right in saying that there's nothing wrong with their marketing strategy. What annoys me is that so many people still buy instruments based on hearsay and adverts. Not exaclty Buffet's fault, though.
Post Edited (2017-10-21 03:09)
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Author: Klose ★2017
Date: 2017-10-21 04:09
Kalashnikirby, I couldn't agree more that players, particularly american ones, should pay more attention to some smaller makers. I have clarinets from both big companies and small German makers. I would say they each have both advantages and disadvantages. I also think music stores in US and other places should learn from the ones in Japan to take this opportunity to sell these small but prestige brands. The one you mentioned, Oscar Adler, is certainly great. Here I just list some brands I have tried or own: Leitner & Kraus; Dietz; Schwenk & Seggelke; Josef (from Japan). They all make great instruments (also for Boehm system). However, unfortunately, most people still firmly believe the try-before-you-buy principle and there is no chance to try outside Germany (except for Japan).
So in my opinion, to change the current situation, first, teachers and professors should make students aware that although most principals still use Buffet, theirs instruments were carefully selected, which does not mean you can get the same from music stores (as someone wrote above). Second, music stores should be a bit brave to become a dealer of these small brands and have some models in stock for people to try. Third, ideally, these small companies should also put a bit more money in marketing. Once more big names changed, the whole situation will change.
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2017-10-21 05:55
Pretty solidly in the Klose & Kalashnikirby camp, having ordered a set from S&S, but that's neither here nor there. Two quick things. The Buffets, when they're well made or put in shape by a good tech, have their own character, which a whole lot of people like a lot. If you like that character, then get a Buffet and do what you have to to make it play right. And second, people worrying a lot over what instruments won the big auditions over the past few years also need to read the thread on the orchestral dream being dead. (The thread doesn't say much that wasn't just as true in the 1970s, though.) There are many, many monster players at the auditions, and the chances that buying a Buffet instead of a Yamaha will put you in one of those orchestras aren't great. On the other hand, whether you win one of those auditions or, like many of us, don't, playing an instrument you really love is a really good consolation prize. It makes a huge difference.
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2017-10-21 11:53
To draw an analogy to another passion I have, mountain biking, I can say with certainty that the big brands there are neither better nor more affordable than the small ones. And we're paying roughly the same sums that we'd pay for a good instrument, while the latter will last a bit longer!
One big brand in particular over here in Germany (to my mind) makes such boring, average bikes, selling them only online. This brand has the worst after sales support one could ever imagine, which makes me wonder why people still buy these bikes, as we highly depend on that - there are so many parts that can break or perform poorly, forcing you to send them back under warranty.
But... They have contracted many pro riders, are present at many (test) events and have legions of marketing people behind them (whether these people are aware of it or not). That's what keeps them going and that's what keeps Buffet going, too - the average buyer believes pro riders, with their had-picked gear and mechanics behind them, to have more desirable bikes than anyone else. They thing is, these pros don't care and will change their brand as soon as a better contract is in sight - their skills exceed anything us mortals could hope to achieve.
In analogy to that, do you believe a Martin Fröst cares about the equipment he plays on? Go watch the video "Martin Fröst Visits Buffet Crampon" and tell me how anything he says should affect my buying decision? His being in a room with carefully selected top-of-the-line instruments while contemplating on the nature of playing the clarinet or something like that has nothing to do with the real world. And next to this video you watch him trying out vandoren V21 reeds (100,000 views).
Unlike biking, however, clarinetists don't create nearly as much blogs, forums or (online) magazines. I find that among musicians, there's almost no online communication and even nowadays people buy based on something someone recommend them years ago, and neither of them has even tried out the actual instrument. On the either hand, I can find a handful reviews and endless discussions about almost any bike that I'd put my eye on. As a "tech nerd" there's hardly a greater joy than finding a detailed tutorial on disassembling my suspension fork, along with tipps what kind of oil and grease I should use. Every single parameter one could adjust is discussed in threads with 200+ pages - and that's just about one specific part for a specific type of bike.
In our last rehearsal, however, our principal clarinet stared at me with what must have been a mix of horror and pity when I told her I repadded my clarinet using hot glue. I've probably desecrated the holy heritage of century-old instrument making and offended her and legions of (now dead) teachers and repair techs who just always "did it that way", so she replied: "No... I'll never have HOT GLUE on MY clarinet". Thus, the discussion was ended.
So I'm very glad about this forum where people, whom I could learn a great deal from, are more open to discussion. In my experience, many clarinetists never switched "their" brand and their repair tech, usually with the same explanation: That they had always done it this way.
Were I to live in a country without the same density of instrument makers and shops, so the only option would be to order online, I'd heavily depend on others' experiences. I still cannot wrap my mind around the fact that there are so many other great communities for even the most absurd topics (ever heard of e-cigarette smokers creating huge databases to measure the performance of 100+ different 18650 Li-ion cells?) and we clarinetists mostly remain silent. Are there so few of us??
Post Edited (2017-10-21 12:03)
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Author: bsnake1956
Date: 2017-10-25 04:58
There is no problems with Buffet. They are trying to satisfy a huge consumer base. What is wrong with having to try many instruments to find the perfect one? The clarinet is not an I-Phone. Although many of the younger players on this bboard probably wish it was (just kidding).
Don't forget, that the best bassoons are made by Heckel. When you order one, it is expected that you will spend many dollars (possibly hundreds or thousands) getting it set up. Why, I don't know, but my best friend is an excellent bassoonist with a '30s Heckel and claims that that is the way it is.
When I was a professional symphonic player (admittedly many years ago, the 80's, although I still perform a lot) it was assumed that when you wanted to buy a new horn, you would have to play many clarinets to find the perfect horn. That is still true today. The last horn I bought (an 1985 R-13, I own 2 others) I tried over 30 instruments.
That having been said. Bob Bernardo is correct. Buffet could use some serious quality control.
Are Buffets inconsistent - yes seriously.
Has Buffet degraded the product line? Absolutely.
Is Buffet losing market share? Who knows? But is Yamaha (who built my motorcycle and outboard motor) or Selmer serious competitors. Maybe, but consistency is not an accurate gauge of what is best for the individual player, because you can get consistency in an I-Phone, not a wood instrument.
Is Buffet worried about other competing brands? Probably not, because they still have old dudes (60) like me who still think they make the best horn.
Should I consider other instruments?
Probably, but I won't.
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Author: GenEric
Date: 2017-10-25 09:03
They're trying to satisfy a huge consumer base. Although I'm not an expert, I believe that Buffet speeds up the aging process because there's so much demand. They end up using bad quality wood. I know something like this happened to Yamaha Pianos. When I was getting my piano tuned, the technician told me that the piano I have is worth more than I got it because this was before Yamaha began speeding up the aging process so it sounds better or something along those lines.
"What is wrong with having to try many instruments to find the perfect one?"
That's a huge flaw. If you have to try out many instruments before finding the perfect one, you're leaving all the bad instruments other unknowledgeable consumers. Although you might find nothing wrong with it, I just feels unethical. I know one of my classmates bought a R13 online. He ends up playing his plastic horn instead because he sounds better with it. It just doesn't seem ethical.
You cant set aside Yamaha and Leblanc just because they make other stuff. In fact, I think that Yamaha is better because in addition to clarinets, they also made instruments from all music families so they have more experience. Clarinets are a very personal topic so one shouldn't be brand biased. Unfortunately, it seems like people are only buying Buffets because their teacher played it and because everyone they know plays one...
Competition is good! It leads to lower prices and faster advancements in technology. Right now, I feel like buffet is just releasing new clarinets and people just sucking into it! When Buffet released the tradition, they claimed that the nonplated posts made the clarinet sound better. However, the year after that, they release the legende clarinet with rose gold posts. Right now, it seems like their marketing is better than their clarinet making...
Sorry.. it seems like all my arguments are all mixed up. I'm incredibly busy but I wanted to contribute to the conversation. If anyone has contradiction opinions, I'd really like to hear what they have to say!
Post Edited (2017-10-25 09:05)
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-10-25 09:25
bsnake1956 - Thank you for your comment. I actually contacted them in Florida and offered my help for free, before my 8 month hunt for new horns. But the president never responded. Forgot the goofs name. He just said some of these people have been with Buffet for 20 plus years and are very good at their jobs. So in my opinion, he should be the first one fired during a reorganization. He is blind to the serious problems. So sad.
As I read these posts I have been asking myself how do the other top horns which cost much more, $10,000 play? Do these pads leak too? They probably do.
I'd like to hear from some of the people that play or played on these horns. I know Tom Powalski did. Hope I spelled his name correctly. And he switched to Yamaha's. I'm not sure if he switched because we know each other. But he switched right after I did. As we know he sounds great on them.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2017-10-25 18:15
Non-Buffet player here. For those of you who think the best R13's (however they got that way) are tops, where in the scheme of things do the rest of the examples fall? Take away the best 1/4 (1/10?) of the current or past Buffet inventory, or the best 3/4 (9/10?). Suppose those best examples had never existed. Would anybody of consequence play what was left? I'm just trying to get a handle on how big a difference is there between top and bottom.
What about Yamaha? Could they thrive based solely on their worst output?
Imagine a high end restaurant that served great meals 1/4 (1/10?) of the time.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: echi85
Date: 2017-10-25 21:49
Perhaps I am wrong, but I don't think the argument was that R13s are poor instruments but that they are in poor condition from the factory.
The other factor is that different players look for different things in instruments. I don't think there is a universal standard for testing instruments. I tend to look for instruments that have enough resistance to hold the sound. Others prefer more free blowing instruments. As long as the instruments seal, people will buy them.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2017-10-25 22:14
Then I guess we need to further subdivide the production and inventory into A) top notch from the factory, B) good as the best of the A's if worked on, and C) mediocre or worse no matter what you do (within reason). From past comments I thought C happened because of manufacturing tolerances, inherent issues in the wood, etc. Car makers have always claimed there are no true lemons, "anything can be fixed". But that isn't always so. A good manufacturer should prevent "C"'s from being sold, perhaps burn or crush them. Do they?
And of course you are right that preferences vary. Is Buffet trying to provide a range of product under a single model, to satisfy a range of clientele? Or is the variation an accident or misadventure?
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2017-10-25 22:16)
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2017-10-25 22:51
I've often wondered how their cheaper models are graded. What makes an E13 the "cheaper", I mean: How do they manage to make this instrument "worse" than an R13 - and to my mind, it most definetely is, though it isn't a bad instrument. Of course, the wood might be of lower quality, but how what about all the other factors? I assume that some clarinets, once they're finished, might just not fulfill certain standars and are sold at a cheaper price.
If, however, a big manufacturer like Buffet has such a refinded production process that it's already clear what the billet at the very beginning its clarinet life will be turned into exactly, then I don't see why it should be impossible to deliver consistent quality.
Maybe it's just that padding is a difficult task and whoever pads those Buffets in the french factories might not have the nerve (or time) to set them up perfectly, it's mass production after all. It's basically this companies' decision to make them this way and people seem to accept it, otherwise sales would drop drastically.
Nylon pins, Synthetic pre-cut cork adhered with double-sided tape, a special tenon design and self-adhering tenon corks, hot glue for the pads to name but a few. They certainly do know how to cut the costs and I almost admire that.
Post Edited (2017-10-25 22:54)
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Author: ClarinetRobt
Date: 2017-10-26 02:34
What I get from reading this thread:
Buffet needs to call the R13 what it really is. It's an intermediate horn. Sure many have gone through the pain staking process of finding amazing instruments. College kids and advance HS kids get the ones already picked through. The junk is filter to local music stores.
It's obvious Buffet is making better horns to be comparable to the old R13s. Tell it like it is. Most of us have already figured it out. R13 is no longer a premium offering.
I understand this is a marketing disaster for Buffet. But let's not pretend it's anything different.
~Robt L Schwebel
Mthpc: Behn Vintage
Lig: Ishimori, Behn Delrin
Reed: Legere French Cut 3.75/4, Behn Brio 4
Horns: Uebel Superior (Bb,A), Ridenour Lyrique, Buffet R13 (Eb)
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Author: echi85
Date: 2017-10-26 05:03
It would be hard to get an honest assessment as to the categories fskelley brings up. I think it would be necessary to first even the playing field. You would have to have a tech on hand to fix any mechanical issues an instrument has. Once that has been done, I believe that it would be very hard to find outright duds. The single distinguishing factor would be how in tune the clarinet is with itself and how even the scale is.
I do have to say that some people believe that instruments leave the factory in much better condition than they arrive. I'm not sure if I buy into it but I do think there is some truth that shipping changes things.
It's also important to realize that we are dealing with an organic material. There are unknown factors that contribute to why a clarinet plays different than another even if they are built to the same specifications.
Buffet is riding on it's reputation. Professionals have a very specific idea as to what they want while as amateurs and students are less sensitive. That's not to say that certain instruments are flat out bad but that some people are happier buying instruments that others wouldn't. The problem is that people keep buying and playing Buffet. If the clarinet community really wanted change, they would stop buying their instruments. As long as they sell, Buffet has no incentive to improve the condition of their instruments.
As for the differences in models, the major difference between an E-11/E-13 and an R-13 is the tone holes. There are tone hole inserts for the intermediate models while R-13's have the tone holes drilled into the bore itself. I would argue that more time is put into the keywork of an R-13 as well. I can usually tell when I'm playing an E-11 because certain keys feel too high or low.
I don't think you can call the R13 an intermediate instrument. I've played recent R13s that were better than their higher end models, in my opinion. I think Buffet realizes that they can't only make R13s and grow economically. Newer models endorsed by big players is a way to increase revenue. Not unlike how car manufacturers come out with a new model. It doesn't necessarily have to be much of an improvement, it just has to be new. Apple runs on this model.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2017-10-26 05:10
A curmedgeon's (humorous) advice: You want a good Buffet? From about 6 Buffet Prestige R13s, select the best and pay $6,400, thank you. Then another $500 to have it set up well. So for just under $7,000 you've got something nice.
Want a good Yamaha? From 2 or 3 CSVRs, pick the best. Pay $3100.00 and you're ready to go. No they don't sound just like the Buffet Prestige, but they sound good. You want the Buffet sound? You pay $7000.00 go with the Prestige and its set-up requirements. Some people will prefer the CSRV.
Want a good Backun? You pay $8,500 for a Mo-Ba, and you're all set. Just try it before you buy it to be sure. No, it doesn't sound like either a Buffet or a Yamaha. It sounds like a Backun.
Want a good Schwenk & Seggelke? Put your order in, pay your $$$$$$, and wait. When it comes you should have a good clarinet. It doesn't sound like a Buffet, Yamaha, or Backun. It's an S & S, and it will sound good.
Following any of these 4 flowcharts will put your hands around a good clarinet. So you can pay anywhere from $3100 to $$$$$ to get your good clarinet.
Post Edited (2017-10-26 05:27)
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-10-26 06:18
Seabreeze, you make a good point of course. Above I said it took me 8 months to find a replacement for the 8 sets of Buffets I had. But the Yamaha's were as close as I felt I could come sound wise. Then with the help of a few friends, John Bruce Yeh and the recent passing of Loren Kitt, I felt the sound filled the large halls and I was most impressed with the upper registers. Then the A clarinet was the dream horn. As stated before it feels like you are playing on a Bb. It is so free blowing.
But I had to leave Buffet. No support. When their NEW double case is bending the keys and they tell me the NEW case is not under warranty at the cost of over $500 I had to leave them. Yes Buffet has a sound unlike other clarinets, but this is fine. I feel the Selmer Signature and the Yamaha CSVR's project really well, better than Buffet, and I came very close to buying the Signatures. But when I played the Yamaha's I couldn't justify the price difference. I even tested some German reformed horns, and asked for some guidance from Michele Zukovsky, but she felt the new horns were not too good. The ones I did try were very wonderful but older models and less open. Less freedom.
So here is what bothers me. Buffet still sells more R13's than any other instrument. Shouldn't these be in perfect condition? Showroom condition for the advanced students and some pros even if these are not the top pro line horns? If Yamaha can sell perfectly sealed pads at 1/2 the cost what is the problem with Buffet? Yes some of you may say it is not 1/2 the cost, but it really is. Remember the Yamaha CSVR's are silver plated. Actually dipped twice. Some sort of patented process. A silver plated Buffet costs much more, plus add on the repair work needed to seal the pads.
People are saying it has to do with the tone holes, things like that. Well, in the past I fixed my own Buffets and sealed them. Some of the pads were bad, so make better pads. Other pads were just put on wrong. Pads now cost pennies and are very good quality. Even Backun uses medium quality black pads, when he could use the best pads for pennies more. So it's not just the pads, it is Buffet not caring. They can put the very best pads on their horns for about $15. That's all it would cost. Right now they are paying about $12. So this is simply stupid and careless techs and that need to be fired. Think about all of the horns Buffet puts out that leak so badly and people won't buy them, because they sound horrible.
They really don't care that their $3500 to $4500 clarinets leak. Because maybe they will still sell one day. Again, stores should ship them back to Florida. Every one of them. Massive recalls. Every horn should seal. It's that simple. Every store owner should check them for leaks when they arrive and send them back.
In 20 years or less will Buffet be around? My guess is no. The new young generation of wicked talented musicians won't put up with this. They want to be great players, not mess with junk.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2017-10-26 07:33
They will get bought by someone, probably Conn-Selmer, and then get fixed. You heard it here first.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2017-10-26 07:54
“In 20 years or less will Buffet be around? My guess is no. The new young generation of wicked talented musicians won't put up with this. They want to be great players, not mess with junk.”
Once again, there’s simply no indication that they’re losing steam or losing professionals. If you’re tired of hearing me say this, imagine how tired I am of typing it.
The new young generation probably won’t make their decisions based on personal grievances or case design.
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Author: mproper2009
Date: 2017-10-26 16:48
Oh, thank you everyone for such interesting discussion.
Looks like I am not alone in my discovery, my teacher is very old guy who is not using internet or knows English, but his old Buffet from 70`s is way better horn then what I tested, but he now cracked on top joint, and he left with student horns. He is old fellow like some of you, and he strictly denies anything besides Buffet been named clarinet.
Side note I am not a professional player, not to any degree, I am just learning so CSG||| is way way over my head at this stage. But I finished music school years ago, and now back to music again, I've purchased CSG just because it cost me less then any intermediate clarinet and after my old Amati student clarinet I instantly had a difference.
But again point was how professional Clarinet is not sealing from factory, I just do not understand that. I was even not playing on horn to check it out, just close all fingers and put hand from other side, and use my mouth to suck air out of horn, and 5 horns where leaking.
It is not even intonation problem, it is basic set up, that should be done on factory. Then I was also surprised to hear that is expected, how then to select a good horn?
Prestige horns where properly set up and sound amazing to me, but that is because as tech in store said he repadded them completely, and they cost way more.
Ended up buying used horn, which was completely repadded and sound that R13 sound that my teacher likes, costing around 2K, and looks like never been used before, at least from visual standpoint but made in 2004.
Thanks everyone for your ideas
Now teacher enjoys it, but still from his words it more resistant then old R13.
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Author: gatto
Date: 2017-10-26 17:17
I guess that the set up of the Prestige/Festival clarinets (and higher) is better than with the "basic" horns, and in my opinion the R13 is just a "basic" horn. At least it is told that the experienced techs apply the keys and pads and so on.
I really recommend to buy the horn from a dealer who is also an experienced tech. I did this two times in Germany, where I live. They made immideate adjustments considering my complaints, with no additional costs, and the price even 10% under the list price.
Besides leaking there could be also many other issues which can be fixed. Like the width of the opening of certain pads (in order to reduce noise of certain tone holes). The precise position of the keys, etc.
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Author: zhangray4
Date: 2017-10-26 18:59
This topic blew up really quickly wow... seems like no one likes Buffet
If I had been an active member of the BBoard earlier, I would have tried out some other brands other than Buffet when I bought my R13 last year. I was always under the impression that Buffet was the best at the time, so I only tried the R13.
Here's something funny (and honestly, pretty pathetic): I remember my teacher and I went to the music shop to choose a R13. We kept asking the guy to bring us more R13s to try out, since my teacher and I would play on it for about 30 seconds and toss most of them away. They were that bad. The guy ended up letting us try a dozen (12) R13s before he said that was enough. And my teacher and I could really only pick out 2 good R13s that we were thinking about purchasing. It took us only an hour to come to that conclusion.
That should have been the sign for me to try out other instruments. But I was young at the time and lacked knowledge. So I ended up buying one. At a all state honor band convention this spring, I tried out an A clarinet for the first time: a gold plated CSVR. To me it felt easier to play than my R13! I hogged the clarinet for like 30 minutes probably! Apparently R13 A clarinets are supposed to be stuffy, but that was not so for the CSVR A clarinet.
I regret greatly for not trying out the Yamahas. I would've bought it over the R13 without a doubt. And now, I am looking to buy an A clarinet soon, so I would probably be forced to buy a R13 A clarinet, unless I can somehow sell my current R13 Bb.
-- Ray Zhang
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2017-10-26 19:48
zhangray4 said ..."no one [on this list] likes Buffet." Not so! Most list members, especially those who have done pro symphony, opera, and chamber music work have played Buffet for most of their professional career. Many of the accomplished amateurs also were raised on Buffet. At least since the late '50s, Buffet has been the "go to" reference clarinet in the US. For 60 years in the New York Philharmonic, Stanley Drucker played Buffet. In the same orchestra today, Anthony McGill does. They both play a well selected, finely tuned Buffet Prestige R13 and sound terrific but with very different styles and tone concepts--all on the same really wonderful instrumental design!
I believe the complaint on this board is not that we don''t like and appreciate the contribution the R13 concept made in the clarinet world but rather that Buffet itself no longer likes Buffet. It has allowed its most iconic model to drift into mediocrity or worse. If you have to spend $7000.00 to get what Buffet used to offer for much less, you're going to start shopping around. And then you are going to find that while Buffet has turned its back on the model that made it prized and famous, it just may be pricing itself out of the market with its higher end models. For $7000.00 you can almost get pair of Yamaha CSVRs, a CSG ii with money left over, a Selmer Signature or Privilege, and for a little more a Backun Mo-Ba. That same $7000.00 can also be used as a big down payment on a hand-made, thoroughly vented and adjusted S & S.
If Buffet put a Brannen-like finish on its R13 including complete pad sealing, and tuning, and lowered the price on its Festival and Prestige models, you would probably see a lot fewer complaints here. Many of us on this list still like Buffet and feel that the company has let us down.
The other side of the argument could be that the R13 is produced at such a massive scale that quality control becomes impossible. Perhaps if Yamaha and Selmer had to scale up to the same volume of production their products would suffer in a similar way. Perhaps the same would be true of the Backun Mo-Ba and the S & S.
Post Edited (2017-10-26 20:15)
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Author: brycon
Date: 2017-10-26 19:55
Quote:
Want a good Schwenk & Seggelke? Put your order in, pay your $$$$$$, and wait. When it comes you should have a good clarinet. It doesn't sound like a Buffet, Yamaha, or Backun. It's an S & S, and it will sound good.
Well, an S and S French clarinet does sound an awful lot like a Buffet--they're essentially a copy of Charlie Neidich's R13s. My tech was overhauling a pair, which I got to try out side-by-side with my Prestiges. The feel and tone was very similar to the Prestiges--maybe a tad more depth and resonance (perhaps because of the density and quality of wood?).
But the common complaints about Buffets--keys feel cheap, poorly-aged wood expanding, pads not sealing, etc.--aren't going to be a problem with S and S. They're like a perfectly crafted R13. And I think once Americans get hip to them, Buffet players with money to spend might be jumping ship. I'm definitely buying S and S for my next set.
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Author: echi85
Date: 2017-10-26 20:07
I think it's time to put this thread to bed. Please correct any of the following information as some of it is dated. The following players play Buffet:
Stanley Drucker
Martin Frost
Yehuda Gilad
Richie Hawley
Jon Manasse
Paul Meyer
Robert Spring
All members of the the following clarinet sections play Buffet:
Boston Symphony
New York Philharmonic
Cleveland Orchestra
LA Philharmonic
Cincinnati Symphony
Detroit Symphony
St. Louis Symphony
Baltimore Symphony
Minnesota Orchestra
Dallas Symphony
Houston Symphony
Atlanta Symphony
Utah Symphony
Rochester Philharmonic
Nashville Symphony
Vancouver Symphony
San Francisco Opera Orchestra
Chicago Lyric Opera Orchestra
Colorado Symphony
North Carolina Symphony
In addition, certain members of the following orchestras play Buffet:
Montreal Orchestra
Chicago Symphony
Pittsburgh Symphony
San Francisco Symphony
Seattle Symphony
National Symphony
Metropolitan Opera Orchestra
Philadelphia Orchestra
Kansas City Symphony
Buffet isn't going anywhere. Just because you want something to be true doesn't mean it is.
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2017-10-26 20:51
I think I've already made my point earlier: Pros playing on Buffets doesn't mean the commercially available ones are good. Uebel and Backun have come up with new, interesting models and there are dozens of small, qualitiy manufacturers out there.
German artists pretty much exclusively play on horns from small companies like S&S, Wurlitzer etc. which don't have such a strong marketing apparatus. We don't have this kind of "big" player. Ironically, the masses buy Yamaha or Schreiber, whose lower end clarinets are rather dreaded by teachers, so in our case bigger brands are actually avoided by pros. (In my opinion Uebel and Oscar Adler make nicer horns at a lower price too, but that's the way it is...)
Now who's right? I'd certainly not argue with a large group of pros playing this or that brand, apart from that I slightly prefer German artists anyways. There are so few opportunities to really try out different instruments and in my opinion clarinet players are also extremely conservative about "their brand"
Heck, maybe I'll stick with Buffet - if I find a good one.
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Author: echi85
Date: 2017-10-26 20:56
I said this is a previous post but I will repeat it. The only way you can get preferred treatment with Buffet is if you go to them, either in France or NYC. Pros who order clarinets from vendors get the same instruments you do. The idea that Buffet holds certain clarinets for their artists or pros is false.
I cannot speak for what happens in Germany, only what is happening in the US.
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Author: qp
Date: 2017-10-27 05:24
This thread is ridiculous and there are too many irrational comments.
Yes, Buffet's quality of R13s has diminished since the 1960s but isn't that to be expected?
Why is there so much importance placed on the R13 clarinet?
That was 50 years ago and there are about 50 new models of clarinet released by Buffet since then - most of them priced above R13s. Just because Buffet says that an R13 is a professional level clarinet doesn't mean it is or has to be. It's essentially a student level clarinet at it's price. Look at flutes and oboes, horns or violins - if you're really serious about buying a professional level instrument for you life perhaps invest more money in a higher quality, higher (by Buffet's grading) grade instrument.
Secondly, the original poster rejected a clarinet because the bell would not fit and for some reason other people in this thread have fueled that fire. Just 1) grease the corks, 2) take wood off the tenon, 3) realise that wood is a natural material and isn't plastic - it swells and contracts.
Buffet doesn't hold certain stock for certain people - that is just ridiculous. Go to any country and the professionals there will be buying and trying instruments from those shops.
No, Buffet will not be gone in twenty years. That's absurd. Have you seen how many instruments they produce. Yes, Yamaha in good, their market is growing, but how many people play on them compared to Buffet? is it 1000:1? 10000:1? 1000000:1? And what was it 5 years ago?
Buffet probably sets up their clarinets exactly the same - firm tension and the joints go together in a factory that is probably standard pressure and temperature. Then they put in a box, go through customs, on a plane, to your airport, customs, distribution, freight, your shop, 100 people before you, played by you. Is it possibly that the thousands of changes in temperature and humidity, shipping, handling etcetera that maybe the keys have gone out of alignment?
Buffet did not "shove the new R13 model down our throats". That's absurd. They changed the design, minutely, and people still liked it, bought it.
If you don't like the product - don't buy it. Find a better one.
If you go to a shop where the instrument doesn't seal - consider the above. Then, if the shop is any good, they will fix those problems for you for free while you are there. If they don't - go to another shop.
Let's see what gets fired back at me for this.
John
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2017-10-27 06:14
John,
I would take serious exception to only one of your assertions. You said The R13 is "essentially a student level clarinet at its price" and we should all recognize that.
It is anti-factual to classify the quality of an instrument by its price. Someone could put platinum keys on a cheap plastic instrument and sell it for $35,000. As a functional musical instrument, it would still be beginner level. The Yamaha CSVR Bb clarinet sells retail for about $3100.00 and some vendors sell it for less. This is a lower price by several hundred dollars than the Buffet R13. By your logic then, a CSVR would be even more of a student instrument than the R13 because it is in a lower price bracket. Yet the CSVR is demonstrably a high-quality pro instrument. Clearly, price does not determine value--whether a clarinet is pro or student level. Design, engineering, and quality control determine that.
Beyond that, I agree that the arguments pro and con on this issue have been pretty much exhausted. We all know that most symphony players still use Buffets. We all know the R13 design at its best is remarkable. We also know that other great clarinets (some mainly R13 inspired, some not) are now on the market. If we say much more on this, we will be endlessly repeating ourselves.
Post Edited (2017-10-27 06:26)
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-10-27 07:21
John wrote -
>Buffet did not "shove the new R13 model down our throats". That's absurd. They changed the design, minutely, and people still liked it, bought it.
It's a major bore change. It has been well documented that they wanted a larger bore to copy the Selmer's bore. They tune to 440 and below in the upper register. That is a big chance. There is no client support. They do not warranty their $500 plus NEW cases that can bend keys. Another major change. They were working on the design with - guess who? Tony Gigliotti! Surprised? You shouldn't be. Thus a major bore change, not a minor change. Did you notice all of the different 10 series Selmers? Tony wasn't happy. Look at the dates for verification.
I guess I should have used this case and after every rehearsal and every concert send the clarinet back to Florida for bent key adjustments. That would be everyday. Soon the keys would snap and break. Then use one of my other 8 sets of horns? The horn was under warranty. Does this make sense? They Do Not Care. Fix and mend broken keys or replace or fix a bad case. OMG! Are they insane? It is a no brainer!
So I left them for a better instrument. I'm not the only one. I didn't write this thread, just commenting on it. I sold 8 sets of Buffet clarinets, not 8 clarinets, but 8 sets, in frustration. Some going back to the 1960's. The Yamaha's tune better and play better. I offered my help to Buffet for free. They didn't even respond to the offer. Yes the sound of a Yamaha and a Buffet may be a shade different, but it will not keep you out of a major orchestra? If anything you may have a better chance with a Yamaha because the A clarinets are so great. The best I've ever played on.
If people want to test 15 to 30 Buffet horns before buying one and then spend another $500 to $1000 or more fixing their new horns go for it. My loyalty is sadly gone and I'm not the only one. This thread proves it.
I'd rather test 3 Yamaha's and pick the one that fits my sound requirements. There is no longer that need to test 20 horns and hope you find something decent. Yamaha has them.
Buffet screwed up. It is that simple. With this huge thread going on and on, maybe someone at Buffet will read this and do something. They had 8 months to fix my issues and hire me for free to help them, before I became a Yamaha Artist. Needless to say I will never jump ship and leave Yamaha.
I wish Buffet well and I am thankful that we have other choices now. Also thank you Selmer for your outstanding Signature clarinet.
One last comment, if Yamaha did a better job putting their top horns in the music stores most likely Yamaha would outsell Buffet. The problem right now is it is hard to find pro line Yamaha's in music stores. So before you buy that Buffet, ask your store to order a Yamaha CSVR, just one to test. Compare it to 20 Buffets. Let me know which one you pick.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2017-10-27 07:32)
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Author: Klose ★2017
Date: 2017-10-27 08:03
seabreeze,
You should not compare models of different brands. I think John is right here as the price of R13 indeed indicates that it is now just a student instrument compared with other models of Buffet.
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Author: Klose ★2017
Date: 2017-10-27 15:21
https://www.facebook.com/howarthoflondon/videos/1600278556692171/
Interesting video introducing YAMAHA clarinets. Klose wrote:
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2017-10-27 17:34
Brycon,
"Well, an S and S French clarinet does sound an awful lot like a Buffet--they're essentially a copy of Charlie Neidich's R13s. My tech was overhauling a pair, which I got to try out side-by-side with my Prestiges. The feel and tone was very similar to the Prestiges--maybe a tad more depth and resonance (perhaps because of the density and quality of wood?)."
I'd guess the exact bore dimensions have changed a bit over time, based especially on the comments here of a retired tech who's measured some of their instruments. But right now, based on what they told me last May, the upper joint starts a lot wider and ends up narrower, and they're tapered rather than poly-cylindrical. I've played Prestige RCs and Prestige Elites, the latter now defunct, and found the S & Ss freer blowing and with more dynamic range. But I wouldn't take issue with your characterization of the sound, and don't know enough about their origin to question your comment on that, either. I've heard here, and the fellow who was helping me at the workshop also said, that Jochen worked with Uebel designing the bore for their Superior, which is not really an R13 knock off, so it seems likely that the R13 would have been more of a starting point for their French bore than a design goal.
Regarding wood, S & S might oil it more heavily than Buffet. They told me they don't dye the wood, but all the grenadilla instruments I saw were as dark as dyed instruments and I couldn't see the grain like you can on the undyed Buffets. They said that comes from oiling, and there was plenty of grain in their unfinished billets. They also seem to be making a high percentage of their French bore instruments out of boxwood; nearly all the French bore new instruments they had there were boxwood, and some of the German bore as well. These are also heavily oiled and have thick walls, and the idea that the sound might be brighter, lighter and not as centered or projecting as grenadilla was not borne out at all for me when I played on them. To me, they sounded if anything darker than the grenadilla ones I tried.
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2017-10-27 17:46
John,
"Yes, Buffet's quality of R13s has diminished since the 1960s but isn't that to be expected?"
Some of the changes in materials seem to have been for the worse, but I got an R13 Bb and A in the '60s and all my fellow students in college had them too, and all the same problems people talk about in this thread existed back then. The main difference is that we can get together and share information a lot more easily now, so more people know about their options. But they were just as "mass produced" then as they are now, there were still a lot of new horns on which the pads didn't seal, and the big names got to select from a collection the rest of us never saw. The biggest change since then has been the more expensive models, but as people have said, paying more doesn't guarantee that the instruments will actually play better.
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Author: brycon
Date: 2017-10-27 18:12
Quote:
I'd guess the exact bore dimensions have changed a bit over time, based especially on the comments here of a retired tech who's measured some of their instruments. But right now, based on what they told me last May, the upper joint starts a lot wider and ends up narrower, and they're tapered rather than poly-cylindrical. I've played Prestige RCs and Prestige Elites, the latter now defunct, and found the S & Ss freer blowing and with more dynamic range. But I wouldn't take issue with your characterization of the sound, and don't know enough about their origin to question your comment on that, either. I've heard here, and the fellow who was helping me at the workshop also said, that Jochen worked with Uebel designing the bore for their Superior, which is not really an R13 knock off, so it seems likely that the R13 would have been more of a starting point for their French bore than a design goal.
Oops, should've been more specific. My Prestiges are the R13 variety (which I guess is just an R13 with an extra key and tenon rings?). And the S and S horn I tried out wasn't new--it was around 5 years old. But my tech, who's one of the best in NYC, measured the bores and told me the S and S was basically a beautifully made version of what I was currently playing on (but the S and S, of course, has some unique features, like the wrap-around register key).
By the way, Jochen's historical instruments are absolutely killer as well--incredible work (and without the hype and constant self-promotion of some other craftsman...).
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2017-10-27 18:46
Do you know the dimensions of the Prestige R13 upper joints? It's entirely possible I have wrong ideas about what they are.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-10-27 22:45
I will always compare costs of horns. I am not rich. I will not pay $20,000 for a set of horns. It's that simple. Yes I can afford these, but it is insane to spend $20,000 for a set of top of the line Buffets. I have other things I'd rather do. This is a down payment in most states for a house or a condo. Cash for a new car. A $20,000 horn is just a piece of wood with keys on it. Same as the low end wood 650 Yamaha. A piece of wood with keys. So where does the price difference come from? It's the same wood. The only difference is the designs of the bores. Is this really worth $10,000 per horn?
I have much more enjoyment out of my fast car, a top of the line Dodge Challenger. Racing cars like Vettes, yes I like this. I'm a kid at heart. I also love going fishing and chasing tuna in the Pacific Ocean. These fun things I can do because I don't have $20,000 horns, my horns were much less than retail, because of the Yamaha Artist program. Yes you have to be a decent player to qualify. So I can play really well. You do have to be a really good player. I can't say what I paid for the horns. No I am not a Robert Marcellus. But people say I sound like him. Maybe this is why I was offered to become one. I don't know if I sound like him or not, it doesn't matter. You can sound GREAT on any horn. You don't need a $20,000 set of Buffet's. Someday I will buy a 1960's Bundy clarinet and play it on youtube. See what people say.
I don't get it. Buffet can charge $50,000 and people will buy it, thinking that is is even better. But let's get real. It's just wood and keys. Yes the sound and the bore may be different. I assure all of you, this won't get you into a symphony, unless you are a really top player.
I will end with this. We all know that the great Harold Wright changed horns every 5 to 10 years. Iggie Gennusa, who I feel had the best sound out of the top players played on mid 1960's horn and Robert Marcellus actually had a pre-R13 horn which he sometimes used. They all sounded great. Even the pre- R13 horn. So there was that weird feeling each player's ideas of what they feel and hear.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: echi85
Date: 2017-10-27 23:50
Bob,
A pair of Divine Buffet clarinets will be around $16000. A pair of new R13s will cost $9000. A pair of the Traditions is $9500, the new Legendes is $14,500. As far as I know, the only manufacturer charging $20000 for a pair of clarinets is Backun. A pair of Yamahas is about $6000-7000. I think most players are willing to spend an extra $2000-3000 for Buffet. Simply put, people prefer the way Buffets sound despite the inconsistencies. To them, it's worth the money. I think many people feel the same way about Vandoren. They are willing to go through 50 mouthpieces in order to find the one that is perfect for them.
It's clear that you have some kind of personal vendetta against Buffet based off of your comments. Respectfully, perhaps companies don't respond to your inquiries of help because they don't need it. As far as I can tell, Buffet is doing fine without you.
I would also advise you to be aware of your own confirmation bias as a Yamaha artist. This thread is a discussion, not evidence. I'm not opposed to someone winning an audition on a Yamaha, I've just have yet to hear of it happening. If you have, please enlighten me.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-10-28 00:51
Here's one, The Montreal Sym. There will be many more. That doesn't count it's not in the USA.
Look at all of the pros that have switched... Not a good argument, but well noted.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2017-10-28 01:11)
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Author: echi85
Date: 2017-10-28 02:17
Which position? The only recent audition Montreal has had was for Principal. Todd is a Buffet artist.
http://www.buffet-crampon.com/artist/todd-cope-2/
I can easily think of at least 10 recent audition winners who play Buffet.
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Author: qp
Date: 2017-10-28 13:36
Some interesting discussion going on here...
seabreeze - Klose is indeed correct. My mistake - I meant to say within the prices of Buffet an R13 is basically a student instrument. Plus it doesn't have any of the other offerings of higher level Buffet clarinets.
So I'm not really sure why anyone is really still thinking that a Buffet R13 is the gold standard (or not, in Bob's case) of clarinet.
It's like saying that the internal combustion engine is still the best engine or that eight cylinder technology is still the best. Clearly it's not - four cylinders is more efficient, just as a Festival is an inherently better clarinet.
Bob you talk about how these clarinets play flat in this and that and out of tune here. Maybe it could be your mouthpiece setup? Trying to play a 442 instrument at 440 doesn't always work. Plus, let's not forget - we're playing instruments that are inherently built out of tune. It's a tube that overblows at the tweltfth. Acousticians need hear no more.
I have no idea who Tony Gigliotti is and I don't really care. Either way people bought more Buffets and Selmer is in the rear view mirror. Sure, they make great clarinets but not for me.
What is this grievance with the case that new Buffets ship with? It bends your keys? Which case is this? I have used a lot of Buffets over a lot of years with a lot of different cases and never had that problem. No, you don't make sense
Maybe you should have just bought a new case? That's what I did. I'm not lugging that wooden/leather box they send with clarinets around town. I buy a backpackable case. That's a no brainer.
The Yamahas maybe tune better, that's your opinion. People try 15-30 new Buffet clarinets because they want what works for them. Some people prefer freer-blowing some people do not.
I must agree with echi85 on this - a pair of Buffets will never set you back $20,000. Heck, a pair of R13s is probably less than Yamahas. And, yes, respectfully, perhaps Buffet did not want your advice or to "work for free" or whatever because of your attitude towards them or possibly because they know better.
If you're really so annoyed about a perceived need to spend $20,000 on a pair of clarinets perhaps you should direct you attention to Backun, not Buffet. Furthermore, you should consider that Buffet is a French company and Yamaha is Japanese. There are differences in labour prices, import/export duties.
I'm not sure what your personal vendetta is against Buffet, Bob, but it's clear that your arguments don't have much basis for much of what your saying and your bias is palpable.
And regardless of what clarinet you play, you have to be a good player to get a job anyway. No perfectly tuned Yamaha is going to save you there.
John
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2017-10-28 21:26
I agree that most pro symphony players prefer a certain sound that the best Buffets give and other brands do not. And so do lots of amateurs and retired pros. I personally still prefer that sound (call it deeply centered and vibrant luminescence if you will) and have found that the Buffet R13 Prestige is most likely to provide it. At Curtis, Julliard, the Colburn School, the Shepherd School of Music at Rice, and other places where talented students meet influential teachers, the Buffet is nearly ubiquitous, and perhaps, as Eric said, nearly all the recent grads of those programs auditioned and got their jobs playing Buffets.
Will this change in the future? Who can know? In the 1950s most symphony pros played Selmers, and then the mighty Buffet invasion occurred, generally sweeping Selmer soprano clarinets out of the orchestra. Without the gift of prognostication, none of us can say with certainty what orchestral players will be using in 2040, or how how their preferred tonal concept may have changed by then. Yamahas are stable, lusher, slightly more Germanic sounding than Buffets and may or may not point the way to a different future. Time alone will tell.
John, you are correct in saying that Buffet gives obvious signs to all who can read them that they no longer build or market their R13 clarinet as a pro instrument, and within their range of offering, it's maybe a top intermediate instrument. But even within the Buffet line, the pricing hierarchy does not faithfully reflect the place in the hierarchy that pro players assign a given model. According to the pros themselves, the expensive Divine is not their top preference. Despite the advertised features of the Divine, the other models of Buffet are preferred by most symphony players, many of whom are still willing to search through dozens of R13s to find just the right one. And that, finally, it seem to me, is the point of this thread. Even now, players of talent and experience are looking for a professional level pearl among these intermediate oysters. They evidently do not find what they are looking for in the high end Divine. (Nor do they all prefer the Tosca). So the persistent question remains--if such expert players are looking for a better R13, not a Divine or Tosca--why doesn't Buffet give it to them? You can put vitamins, minerals, antioxidants, and fiber in Coca-Cola, but some people will still prefer the old, "lower end" taste of the classic Coca-Cola.
Post Edited (2017-10-28 23:59)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2017-10-28 21:36
I didn't read most of the posts but a few comments...
Re keys bending/breaking in a case... Statistically, out of too many clarinets to count, I've seen zero keys break because of a case. I've seen only a few keys break at all, almost always on zamak keys or on the extremely cheap clarinets (like some Chinese ones). The only part somewhat more common to break on Buffet is the plastic pins, which is still pretty rare (%wise) and never because of a case. Keys bending from a case is also rare but happens occasionally, but pretty rare with Buffet in Buffet cases.
Re a company not taking advice, I know that at least a couple of companies purposely don't respond or acknowledge outside suggestions because they are afraid of people would later demand/expect a payment for it. Even if they say they wouldn't. Some companies have legal department in charge of stuff like that. So I wouldn't be surprised if this is standard for many companies.
I just saw a new E13 and new RC Prestige, here are some problems:
On the E13, terrible design of the left hand F/C lever linkage. It caused it to get stuck, leaving the F/C key closed or almost closed. A better design wouldn't cost more to manufacture (after the cost of changing the design).
From new, a couple of rod screws had a bent thread section, causing the key to wiggle while thread the screw. I've seen that more than a few times on new clarinets.
On the RC Prestige, F/C and E/B were no where near adjusted to close, a lot of force was required (for each pad, not only the adjustment between them which was also off).
More than a few keys had significant play in their hinge, especially the trill keys.
All tenons were very hard to assemble.
These are just a couple of the most recent example since I saw them yesterday. Not that other brands are perfect, not even close.
New ones definitely have a feel for trying to make certain things as cheap as possible, or as fast as possible compromising design. It's hard to compare with old ones because the old ones usually don't have the original setup anyway. As far as the basic design, it isn't worse now. The suggestion to try at least a few existed for decades, so who can really say they were more consistent back then (as far as the way they play, they weren't).
I don't understand the obsession with winning (traditional) orchestral positions as supposedly "the" test for these things. This is just one option clarinet players have and many don't go that route. It's a pretty narrow field and probably the most conservative one. Most excellent professional clarinetists don't play in traditional orchestras AFAIK. The ones who are are not as a whole better than others.
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2017-10-28 22:17
Seabreeze,
"I agree that most pro symphony players prefer a certain sound that the best Buffets give and other brands do not. And so do lots of amateurs and retired pros. I personally still prefer that sound (call it deeply centered and vibrant luminescence if you will) and have found that the Buffet R13 Prestige is most likely to provide it."
Only thing I'd disagree with is the implication that you can't get that sound with other brands, or rather that an R13 will necessarily get one closer to it than anything else. Heard a lot of sounds, prefer the one you describe, and have come a lot closer to it with 1010s, and before that, Wurlitzer Oehlers, than I ever did with a Buffet. Things work differently for different people, having a clear idea of what you want is probably the most important thing, and a lot can depend on having some luck at putting together the setup that lets you get to where you want to be. Don't want to trash Buffet, but would be happy to man the barricades against the one-size-fits-all notion that used to dominate in the U.S.
Clarnibass,
"I don't understand the obsession with winning (traditional) orchestral positions as supposedly "the" test for these things."
I do. Playing in an orchestra is really, really fun, if the programming's decent. Nothing like it anywhere else.
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Author: echi85
Date: 2017-10-28 22:29
There are several reasons why winning jobs is a good bar:
1.) Difficulty. It's incredibly difficult to gain employment in classical music. If you have ever taken a professional auditions, you understand this very clearly. It's not unheard of for hundreds of clarinetists to show up for an audition with only a handful advancing to even just semi-finals.
2.) Competence. There's a similar analogy to sports. If someone is drafted and plays in the NFL, they have more credibility than those who don't. I don't think it means that they know more than others but they are certainly more capable. I don't understand what "professional" means unless you are paid to do it. You can say that there's a quality standard that is necessary, but those who do it for a living are likely to be more qualified. This is not to say that if you don't win a job that you are incompetent. Only to say that those who do have to be.
3.) Influence. The amount of influence professional musicians, that is to say those who win jobs, have on students is immense. Nearly every top teacher in the country is or has been an orchestral musician. I think Yehuda Gilad is the only exception. If you are looking for clarinet lessons, you will probably go to an employed professional.
4.) Renown. I don't know how else clarinetists can make a name for themselves other than winning a job or major competition. The fact of the matter is that you have to prove your self in some way in order to be taken seriously.
If someone can offer a way to get around these problems without winning long-term employment, I am all ears.
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2017-10-28 22:53
The more I think about this topic the less dislike my RC. Buffet has indeed managed to create a kind of sound that shines through, one might even consider it shrill at times, but it is quite different from the dark, softer tone of german clarinets I grew up with. Yet I wouldn't exactly want to go back, despite liking german/austrian artists a bit more (though for example an Ottensamer with his album "new era" might either be considered mellow or just plain boring).
So it might be that people just got used to the R13 over decades and aren't willing to change, despite many different offers coming up. In addition to that, there has been a surreptitious kind of inflation in the Buffet lineup as the R13 has degraded in quality, while higher end models filled its slot.
I'm not sure whether it's my Buffet that makes it easy to stand out in the orchestra (in that it's super easy to annoy the conductor who prefers a sweet and dark tone, haha) but by now I'm sure they're unique instruments, as illustrated by a french student that played the clarinet solo in the second movement of Beethoven's 1st piano concerto in the amateur orchestra I've left...
A rather fierce and luminous sound to put it mildly - but great to see what these instruments are capable of
Certain conductors love to point out that Beethoven or Mendelssohn would've prefered the german system, but this amiable act of local patriotism sadly neglects the growing similiarity between the two systems. In light of this, Buffet's efforts to push the (sound) ideal into a certain direction are even more impressive.
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2017-10-29 00:43
Beethoven, well . . . Beethoven played an English piano, because it was the only one that didn't break when he played the way he wanted to. It's best not to assume too much about what he would or wouldn't like if he'd had a chance to hear it. Lots of Buffet players talk about liking a "German sound," though, and look for setups that will bring them closer to that. I heard two nights of the Oper Frankfurt back in May, and didn't feel the principal clarinet was that different from a really good American player. Nice centered, luminous sound that seemed to be coming from all around, a bit on the dark side, and plenty of edge to cut through when the occasion required. Don't know what he was playing, but from the glimpse I caught of it, it looked like German system. The ideal is probably something that will play sweet and dark or fierce and luminous, depending on what's called for, and there are probably multiple ways of getting there.
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Author: zhangray4
Date: 2017-10-29 01:14
If you want a German sound, get a Oehler clarinet and convert. I've been studying the fingerings of the Oehler just for the fun of it, and about 5 weeks ago, I had the opportunity to have a lesson with Michelle Zukovsky, and she told me to try playing her Oehler clarinet. After playing a few warmup notes, I was able to play basically all the notes from low E all the way up to altissimo F, since I forgot the fingerings for the higher notes. I was able to play scales, orchestral excerpts, bits of concertos/sonatas within a few minutes. And all I did was study the Oehler fingering in my free time.
Ms. Zukovsky's clarinet produced a wonderful German sound. And it took much less effort as well. It was easier to play on than my R13! Free blowing and not stuffy, but did not give a spready sound. The sound was clean and focused. It could be due to her setup though, since she said that after she retired, she has been playing on a lighter setup. And indeed I felt I could've used a harder strength reed on that mouthpiece perhaps to get an even better sound.
Switching is not hard if you are committed. Ms. Zukovsky said she switched from Boehm to Oehler because she said at the time, the "German clarinets were of much higher quality" and said she would not have switched if the Boehm clarinets at her time were decent. I don't know if that is true, but main point is: it is possible to switch. But you should consider the pros and cons of switching before doing so.
-- Ray Zhang
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Author: zhangray4
Date: 2017-10-29 01:20
If you want to stick with the Boehm clarinets, just strive for THE SOUND YOU WANT.
Strive not to play with a German sound, an American sound, or a French sound; strive to recreate the sound you hear in your head.
If you really want a German sound for some reason, just get a German Oehler clarinet with decent quality and learn it.
-- Ray Zhang
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Author: Klose ★2017
Date: 2017-10-29 01:46
zhangray4,
Yes, switching is not that difficult, but as a german system clarinet player, I can assure you it is more difficult than you described, particularly for some fast passages and certain notes it takes some time to get used to. But overall, I will be happy if more people change in the future, then you will have so many great brands to choose from.
Post Edited (2017-10-29 01:48)
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2017-10-29 01:51
Thanks for your input Ray.
Personally, I've stopped caring about achieving that "German sound" or not, but will remain a branded child forever, having grown up with this (sometimes very vague) idea and quite a few people telling me they found "our" system superior.
I've recently switched back a few times during rehearsels, and once I was given one of those standard yamahas I had to realize that I could blend in much better with our wind orchestra. That was when I realized there MUST be some kind of Buffet sound - to be fair however, the clarinet section would greatly benefit from different Instruments, but as I've said earlier cheaper Yamahas are pretty much the standard here for amateurs.
I suppose you didn't realize that I've actually learned the german fingerings and could easily go back, I just don't feel like it
About Beethoven: That's pretty much my opinion you just explained. My favorite Beethoven cycle right now would be from the Orchestre Révolutionnair et Romantique under Gardiner, a historically informed interpretation where the clarinets completely lack the volume and richness of any modern system, yet they have an absolutely unique charm - but this doesn't mean it HAS to be played on historical instruments. Before that, I really loved Rattle's approach with the Berliner Philarmoniker.
We need more exchange really. There are great horns and artists coming any corner of the world. Stoltzmann with his double lip embouchure is one of my favorite artists, never heard such a sweetness of tone combined with a subtle, cheeky vibrato.
Back to the R13 (or RC, but they don't differ too much IMHO)
Well made Oehler horns are indeed extremely free blowing. My altissimo is pretty much always spot on, yet it's a struggle on many lower end Buffets (E11, E13, C12, R13, my RC and even the Prestiges) with an unforgivable small window in wich it won't shriek like a dying cat.
This alone is a reason for me to switch to another brand - granted, the next Buffets I try don't perform better. Unfortunately, my experience so far is that you'll find quite a few horns, even in the price category of a R13/RC, to be more free blowing. It's the only major grudge I'm holding against my RC right now.
Best regards
Christian
Post Edited (2017-10-29 02:19)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2017-10-29 08:32
I'll clarify...
>> I do. Playing in an orchestra is really, really fun, if the programming's decent. Nothing like it anywhere else. <<
The exact same can be said about playing klezmer, jazz, chamber music, improvised music, balkan, etc. Whether something is "fun" (or more "fun" than something else) depends on the player's preference.
>> There are several reasons why winning jobs is a good bar <<
Thanks for giving some reasons. I'm not saying someone playing in an orchestra is any worse or better than someone who isn't. The problem is the automatic tone of superiority coming with this approach in many posts on this forum, along with looking at the most conservative "world" to set the bar.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-10-29 12:14
I hated orchestra playing and I hated teaching college. I found joy doing other types of playing and doing other things in the music world. Frankly I make more money than orchestra musicians, who also have to teach. Does this still make me a pro? There seems to be a problem with playing in an orchestra, using Buffet's and this is qualifying a person as a pro. I prefer to play solo works, quintets, things like that, does this mean I'm not a pro? I give master classes but I don't sit in symphonies. I hate them. Does this mean I can't give master classes?
So because I don't sit in a symphony does this mean I can't sound like Marcellus? Some people say I do. But I think I have my own sound. Does this mean I can't sound great on a Yamaha and I have to play on $18,000 to $20,000 instruments, or play on Buffet R13's that are made wrong?
Don't think so. I think it is surely time to rethink what or who and what makes a pro, not the dang horn. I studied with the very best so I should sound like the very best. If you don't you shouldn't be supporting Buffet. You should be asking them to make things better. Not defending JUNK. So do the players today sound like Harold Wright, Bob Marcellus, Iggie Gennusa, and a few other of the greats? Yes but just a very limited few. We should have 100's of people sounding like them, if the instrument makers did their homework. The sound is actually going the wrong way. Buffet should have built on the Marcellus and Harold Wright sound, mainly Gennusa, who people feel had the best sound out of the the including Marcellus. He played with a double lip just to try to get Iggie's sound.
I'm sorry I don't meet your standards as a major symphony player. This is a job I would surely dislike. I do not like sitting sometimes counting rests and then playing 4 or 5 notes and then counting rests again for 3 hours. Not every piece is exciting like Beethoven's 6th, 9th, 3rd, Mendelssohn's 3rd and 4th - pieces like that.
But at the same time Yamaha heard me on PBS TV and thought I sounded magical, so I do play, but not in the symphony world. Very few players are offered to be Yamaha Artist. Yes I hope Buffet makes it, but I'm getting a really great sound out of the Yamaha's.
Rating players with what horns they play on is like rating people with what types of breakfast they eat. Yamaha and Selmer's are both great horns. It's becoming a useless discussion. People are gonna buy Buffet R13's and hate them. Then people will find out how good Selmer's and Yamaha's are once they play on them and their ultra closed minded simple brains will change. A slow process. But one day it will click that they were wrong. The R13 bores really are horrible. It's that simple. Worse is they can't seal a pad. This is so sad.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2017-10-29 12:27)
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2017-10-29 13:33
Haha Bob you got it right...
I'm still hoping for my old symphony orchestra to finally put Beethoven's 6th on their plan (maybe I'll pay them a visit as they're trying Mendelssohn's 4th...) but generally speaking, symphony players shouldn't think themselves superior to any other sort of musicians. Sadly, we're so dammned conservative....
I wasn't really aware of Marcellus, so I briefly checked out his Mozart interpretation on Spotify, then compared it to Kam and Fröst and found his one the most likeable. He kind of matches the "german sound" ideal in that there is a incredible sweetness and calmness of tone. Some younger modern artists just sound too aggressive and seem to believe they need to showcase their virtousity at any given moment, imparting Mozart (or quite a few other Wiener Klassik composers) an unprecedented air of heaviness and seriousness.
I mean, comon, it's almost childrens' music compared to Brahms, I can't stand how many people still consider it 'the' clarinet piece.
Anyways, here's where I disagree with you. If so many people sound fantastic on the R13, does it really have a horrible bore? Doesn't this rather show how artists can sound great on a huge variety of instruments, with a the R13 giving them the freedom they need?
I'll just never understand why many artists stick so firmly to their instruments when it's more them than the instrument that I hear and like or dislike. As I've mentioned earlier, I'll still insinuate that at least the top brass is heavily sponsored (by now, I've drawn enough analogies to sports etc.) Does anyone think that in times of sponsored content and youtube, more famed artists will care about their integrity?
Go check out this ridiculous VANDORENTV on youtube, they keep talking about these V-series reeds like they had reinvented the wheel. Personally, I can't work with neither the V12 nor the V21 on any given mouthpiece at all. I just tried Steuers and guess who's switching!
Post Edited (2017-10-29 13:36)
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-10-29 15:53
Kalashnikirby - Yes finally someone gets it! I mean others get it too. But you really nailed what I was saying.
You will REALLY like this story...
You know what's funny about Vandoren. The guy that designed the reeds worked for Vandoren for 40 plus years and guess who hired him? Thomas, the owner of the Steuer Company. So we have people like Sabine Meyer playing on the reeds, and Marc Charpender the reed master for Vandoren left Vandoren to work with Thomas the great grandson of the Steuer company and they only use Var French cane, yet Vandoren uses cane from all over the place, but people say the cane from Vandoren is better, yet I sell reeds to the Boston Sym and many other major symphonies! These people are open minded players. So here we are with the same man making the same reeds, with much better cane and more famous people playing on the reeds, but their are those teachers saying to use Vandoren. Just like the teachers that tell the students to buy R13's! Or the teachers that tell the students to buy Rico products, even though every reed has PESTICIDES on them! Why does Rico use Pesticides? Who cares they will soon owe me a huge bundle of money. Pushing close to around 7 figures probably within 3 to 6 months.
I'm glad you understand and I'm glad you have an open mind to try other products. I do like the Vandoren 56 reeds, because there is enough wood in them to work on. But the cane is often horrible. It collapses. The fibers are weak, It is not always French cane. It could be from Spain and several other countries. They even bought some from Rico so it had to have pesticides on it. They ran out of cane one year.
There is that famous true story about Stanley Drucker walking into the Vandoren store in NYC asking the person at the counter, that he wanted to meet the person who puts the 2 good reeds in each box of Vandoren reeds! Stanley is so sharp and funny.
The Steuer reeds are so good because the cane is from the Var region only in southern France and most of the reeds play and last a month or 2. A lot of players have gotten 4 to 6 months out of 1 reed, but not me. I'm hard on reeds. For the record I do not make any money on the reeds. It was done to anger Rico. In fact I've lost money this year. At the clarinet convention, the ClarinetFest in Orlando, Florida I gave out about 200 free boxes of reeds. The reeds are so good a box will last perhaps 8 months, because you should get 6 to 8 reeds to play. I don't sell just in the USA, but the world. I even pay for the shipping! I buy my reeds just like you do.
So we have all of these people playing on Vandoren reeds and most of the cane doesn't come from France! The person that designed the reeds doesn't even work there anymore! He works at the Steuer Company, but look at the goofs that still support Vandoren and settle for reeds that are not as good as they were 5 to 8 years ago. Pretty strange. Will they still play on Vandoren reeds in 5 years? Of course! Their teachers told them to! Same with Rico. Their teachers told them to put pesticides into their mouths! Idiots!
Kalashnikirby - Great comments! Hope others become a shade more open minded. Even just 1 person a day will make a difference in future years. The products will get better, then the products will become GREAT. It's really that simple. Go ahead and spend $30 or more for a box of Vandoren reeds or Rico reeds and get 2 or 3 reeds to play. That's $15 a reed. If you are lucky it will last you 2 or 3 weeks. So that's about $180 a year, probably more, maybe as much or over $300. At the clarinet convention they had a ligature selling for $1300. Don't forget to buy one of those too, to help the reed vibrate better! It has to work and the sound will be better too. For $1300 it must! Also buy the Vandoren M13, M15, and M30 mouthpieces so you can play at 438 in the upper registers. This is important.
FWIW, I personally have played M13s and M15s in orchestra on a 66 barrel with no pitch issues. Perhaps you are judging a few duds as the whole.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2017-10-30 05:36)
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2017-10-29 16:30
While doing research I came across this on Sherman Friedland's Clarinet Corner. Mr. Friedland wrote the following.
According to the great repairman Mr. Hans Moennig Buffet R13 clarinets produced from late 1956 through the late 1960's were made of better wood than the instruments being made today.The wood was cured longer and the bore was finished and sealed with a special French polishing technique which extended the instruments playing life and retarded wood cracks. These instruments can be identified by the flat spring under the C#-G# or left hand little finger key.
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Author: echi85
Date: 2017-10-29 17:48
This is an issue of terminology. What does it mean to be a professional athlete? A professional scientist? A professional clarinetist? By definition, it means to be engaged in a specified activity as one's main paid occupation rather than as a pastime.
Like I said previously, that doesn't mean that amateurs are not competent players. If you have a won a job and then chosen to quit to do other things, you would have proven your qualifications. Gary Gray is someone that comes to mind. If you earn a living playing chamber music and solo concerts, you are a professional. If you earn your living doing other things, you are not.
People don't want to sound like Marcellus or Wright or Gennusa anymore. It's just the way things are. It's been done and we can't keep trying to recreate the past nor do should we want to.
Bob, you can keep spouting out generalizations, but repetition doesn't make your opinion any more true. You have yet to show any evidence that Buffet is doing down or that Yamaha is going up. I am as open minded as most, but I don't believe people just on opinion.
FWIW, I personally have played M13s and M15s in orchestra on a 66 barrel with no pitch issues. Perhaps you are judging a few duds as the whole.
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2017-10-29 18:43
Christian,
"I wasn't really aware of Marcellus, so I briefly checked out his Mozart interpretation on Spotify, then compared it to Kam and Fröst and found his one the most likeable. He kind of matches the "german sound" ideal in that there is a incredible sweetness and calmness of tone."
It depends, of course, on one's idea of a "German sound," but I always thought the same as you about his sound being closer than a lot of players. The big things with Marcellus were always that conductors and audition committees would hear that sound and say "that's what we want," and he had a remarkable ability to get his better students to sound like him. Don't consider his Mozart very interesting musically, but people always listened to it for his mastery of the different aspects of clarinet playing, and he certainly demonstrated that.
Can't agree that the Mozart concerto is a children's piece. It's profound in very different ways from Brahms. Studied the Brahms pieces with a German teacher, Ernst Flackus, and got the distinct impression that there's a tradition in Germany for how to play them that has been passed down, possibly from Mühlfeld students. First thing he did with each movement was go through and add expression markings. It wasn't a process of discovery--it was "this is how it's done." And I recognized a lot of the things from what I'd gotten from American teachers, so the tradition spread pretty widely. He wasn't that way at all with Mozart, Weber, or some of the other big works. It's sort of nice having great music for which there isn't a definitive interpretation; more room for one's own artistry.
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2017-10-29 21:35
dorjepismo,
The professional circles, as far as I can tell, take our historical inheritance very seriously.
http://www.ndr.de/ndrkultur/rezensionen/neue_cds/Werke-der-Mannheimer-Schule-auf-Ottensamers-New-Era,ottensamernewera102.html
Try to google translate that, the Mannheimer Schule still (!!!!!!!!) concerns us, which I find most thrilling in positive and negative ways. By chance, Ottensamer's New Era album is reviewed (and praised) there, too. According to him it's a rediscovery of a "giant musical revolution" that was going on back then. When I listen to this music, which I used to love and still like alot, I wonder why we need to pride ourselves on the Wiener Classic as much as we do. It was played on somewhat limited, much simpler instruments and being able to interpret this material differently nowadays is a great gift, but the constant supposition that artists preach over and over (I find it unnecessary Ottensamer repeats the same in 2017 what Meyer said decades ago) that this music was about the finest details simply bores me. It's true nowadays, yet doesn't make it any more interesting, if we see it for what it is: The clarinet's first baby footsteps.
When I switched to a different teacher, he let me start with Stamitz and told me to bring out the f and p between those typical repeating phrases more strongly, because the music was "pretty bland otherwise". Now I'm playing Mozart again, while he points out how he can't stand the 1000th "meyeresque" version of this piece being released on CD.
My Teacher before that, who is an extremely talented musician dislikes Mozart: When she studied in Mainz under some big name I've forgotten, she'd often not get past the first 2 measures, as the professor would complain she'd not grasped the essence of this piece at all.
My point is: We actually seem to have a quite definite idea of how to play Mozart (or Wiener Klassik in general). Actually, it seems to me like expression markings are passed down generations and Weber in particular is rather considered sounding "free" while leaving less to interpret for the artist. However I'm only an amateur and have to gain more experience still. We seldomly admit that there are other, possibly greater works out there. I'm sorry for the modern composers who get so little recognition for reasons I can't name anymore. Weber is my favorite right now and matches my skills, so I study him. This might or might not change eventually.
And where does this all lead us to? Extreme conservatism. Musicians, techs and teachers not willing to try new stuff I've already given a few examples of this. (The audience is the worst, though, and way too old, maybe the main reason for the classical scene being unable to move forward)
I'm a huge fan of historically informed music because it actually goes against our perceived tradition and puts composers in an different light. I renember my mother commenting on a Aria from Tito with the Orchestra of the Age of Englightment we heard years ago on the radio: The soloing clarinet sounded like a "defunct shalm". It was awesome
Bob, I yet have to form a complete opinion on Steuer, but so far they're lovely. If it's true that they use better cane than Vandoren: Hey, that's just the same as with Buffet using worse quality wood nowadays, while my Amati is a beauty in that department
Post Edited (2017-10-29 21:44)
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2017-10-29 21:47
Guys, I'm visiting a big shop soon and they stock Yamaha and Uebel, besides many Buffets. They should be willing to let me try many horns as I spent 3k there already.
I'll give you my detailed thoughts and hopefully will be done with this Buffet problem for good.
Post Edited (2017-10-29 21:47)
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2017-10-29 22:07
A few things:
1) Reeds
"only get 2 -3 from a box of Vandorens or Ricos". I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt and assume you mean performance level reeds straight out of the box. The ratio should be much more like 2-3 that aren't acceptable for use. So often, the more someone complains about reeds- the more likely it is to assume they are doing something else wrong. Issues with embouchure, voicing, mouthpiece choice, reed strength, and to an extent instrument and barrel/bell choice seem to contribute to people have difficulty finding good reeds.
Also, better players tend to have better reeds that last longer. Coincidence? I think not. It's like when a teacher and student are playing the same reed brand/cut/strength and after a week of each person breaking in reeds, the teacher's 5th best reed from their box is better than the best of the students.
2) Calling people idiots, while often satisfying, is neither professional nor effective as an argument. Like if I were to say, "It's moronic to say that anyone using vandorens or ricos are doing so only because their teacher said so", I would feel satisfaction for calling someone out on saying something that's blatantly wrong, but it would not (and should not) convince anyone of anything.
3) 13 series mouthpieces
Yes, they play lower and if you're in an orchestra that plays 442, you'll probably have issues with standard length barrels. However, they've been used in orchestras across the US and Canada off and on for years, by players better than you or I will ever be, playing perfectly well in tune. As Eric mentioned, some of their renditions of the blanks play lower than others and therefore some of them make the journey up to pitch too much work (having to get a much shorter barrel or play with more jaw pressure than ideal). But as a broad statement, they are still functional mouthpieces by and large.
4) Why I haven't switched to Yamaha
They don't sound as good when I've tried them.
5) "don't want to sound like Wright/Marcellus anymore"
People should maintain a healthy respect for the greats of the past, but no one should be trying to sound the same as anyone else. Certainly we should try to incorporate qualities of others when they are better qualities than our own, as we always have room for improvement. However, the attempts to copy (whether it be Wright/Marcellus or Morales) are generally a waste of time. As Eric said, it's been done before and you'll never sound exactly like them anyway. However, allowing a healthy respect for those of the past (and present) and allowing the aspects of their playing that made them great to influence our thoughts and concepts is a good thing.
6) Making broad generalizations
Don't.
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Author: zhangray4
Date: 2017-10-29 22:11
Always have been interested at those Oehler clarinets, Kalashnikirby. Since you used to play on them, what are some of the best brands for those German clarinets? I only know of Wurlitzer and Monng...
-- Ray Zhang
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2017-10-29 23:10
Uhm....
Any of the small makers, but they're expensive. (S&S, Dietz, L&K, Wurlitzer, but there are even more) L&K seems popular because they're a tad more affordable.
Uebel even has a Full-Oehler for about 2k, they're lovely. And Adler. That's about it.
Wurlitzer is said to be the best, but that's not exactly true. I cannot judge which one is the best, they're all great - and costly. L&K won a musical instrument price in 2016.
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Author: echi85
Date: 2017-10-29 23:16
I agree with the over-idolization of Mozart. I've had a few lessons with teachers in which we spent a significant amount of time on the first four measures. I understand their point about how refined it needs to be, but sometimes we forget that we are playing for more than just clarinetists.
Conversely, I do have strong opinions about how to play Mozart. I've heard many well known players play Mozart like it's Brahms. It winds up taking away from the simplicity of the music and makes it more about the performer. I've always felt that the challenge in Mozart is to do just enough to reveal what is there. In the words of George Szell: "I cannot pour chocolate sauce over asparagus." In essence, it's about restraint.
I also agree that musicians tend to be conservative when it comes to equipment. There is a level of mindlessness when it comes to choosing clarinets, particularly choosing Buffet. I play Buffet and I enjoy playing Buffet, but that doesn't mean that you have to. I like to think of equipment the same way a painter thinks of a color palette. It depends on what you are after. We would all do better to avoid making generalizations based off of singular experiences.
On the other hand, I do think that orchestras and clarinet players need to have some conservatism. Many tend to lose their individuality nowadays because of their equipment choices. We used to have a German leaning Chicago symphony and a French leaning Boston Symphony. Nowadays it's more difficult to tell the differences.
Like most things, the answers are neither here nor there but somewhere in between.
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2017-10-30 02:47
"Any of the small makers, but they're expensive." S & S has on their website that their cheaper instruments are made just as well as their expensive ones, but you don't get as many keys. A full German system isn't quite like an oboe, but it gets pretty close. Buffets would probably be as expensive as the straight Boehms from small German makers if all their workers were as well trained and took the same amount of time to get everything right.
"I agree with the over-idolization of Mozart. I've had a few lessons with teachers in which we spent a significant amount of time on the first four measures. I understand their point about how refined it needs to be, but sometimes we forget that we are playing for more than just clarinetists."
I think teaching that way is mostly for precision, control and phrasing, and Mozart's a good piece for doing that. Really idolizing Mozart would mean gaining a familiarity in depth of the whole piece, which you can't do entirely by deconstructing. Strauss idolized Mozart, so we shouldn't be too quick to disparage that. Maybe he knew some things we don't.
"I've heard many well known players play Mozart like it's Brahms. It winds up taking away from the simplicity of the music and makes it more about the performer."
I agree, and the same principle works for complicated music, too. Said this before, but if your gig involves touring all over the world as a soloist, there's a lot of pressure to make it all about you, because if you don't, there might be two or three players in any given stop who might sound just as good as you do, which would be bad for business. Christian's comment about "the 1000th "meyeresque" version of this piece" is à propos, and it doesn't only happen with Meyer. The interpretation should come from the music with as little interference from the self-interested ego as possible.
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2017-10-30 04:26
Yeah, I just thought we were talking about Oehler horns in particular. And L&K's cheaper horns (starting as low as 2,2) may use lower quality wood - not 1a stored grenadilla, just... stored grenadilla, according to their website.
Haven't had my hands on those yet, I have to say.
Dorjepismo, echi85, you're both making good points. Professionals need to shape their image more intensively than ever and it seems that you have to look either smart or pretty to achieve world fame - and your name has to be printed larger than the actual album's title (e.g. the wildly popular "Roots" by Fröst)
There are still some more or less hidden gems like Sebastian Manz I mentioned that I feel do not "sell out". Perhaps I'm too sensitive, but there are certain artists that from their demeanor alone repulse me - sometimes it'd be better for me not to listen to a single interview and not to check out their Facebook. Why do people care? Why does this dammned Ottensamer have 46.000 likes?
Ah, it already happened, I checked out his page....
It's entirely possible classical music, at least according to the moderation of todays Echo awards in the new Elbphilarmonie, is regaining attention, but I'd wish for a few more artists of a different kind. I don't know. Eccentrics? Individualists? Can't quite put my finger on it.
When echi85 writes :
"On the other hand, I do think that orchestras and clarinet players need to have some conservatism. Many tend to lose their individuality nowadays because of their equipment choices. We used to have a German leaning Chicago symphony and a French leaning Boston Symphony. Nowadays it's more difficult to tell the differences. " he describes what quite a few German players critisise. To be sure, Leister won't return and I wouldn't mind - if there was someone with an entirely new approach.
By they way, I still have hopes for Fröst. His Nordic Concertos and Brahms ablum have is name printed a bit smaller and it's not bigger than the title
Post Edited (2017-10-30 04:29)
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2017-10-30 04:34
Having read through the majority of these posts it really doesn’t matter what anyone plays. If they are able to articulate their musical thoughts through their instrument then it doesn’t matter.
I’ve seen no proof of Bob’s Yamaha artist status and do know that a Yamaha player has to apply to be considered for the artist roster and provide significant evidence of regular performances in whatever guise to be considered. They don’t ask.
At the end of the day music making counts more than the bit of wood one blows down.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-10-30 06:11
echi85
>People don't want to sound like Marcellus or Wright or Gennusa anymore. It's just the way things are. It's been done and we can't keep trying to recreate the past nor do should we want to.
Bob, you can keep spouting out generalizations, but repetition doesn't make your opinion any more true. You have yet to show any evidence that Buffet is doing down or that Yamaha is going up. I am as open minded as most, but I don't believe people just on opinion.
FWIW, I personally have played M13s and M15s in orchestra on a 66 barrel with no pitch issues. Perhaps you are judging a few duds as the whole.
"So sad that you have this attitude. You won't ever be an asset to the clarinet world. For this I'm so saddened. You are the cause of the problem. My guess is the orchestras you were playing in tuned to 437 with a 66mm barrel. There is NO WAY you were tuned to 442. NO WAY!!! Not a chance! NEVER!!! I feel like buying you a Yamaha out of my personal cash flow, but you wouldn't like it. Your teacher told you to buy a Buffet! " So you will be buying R13's forever. Lucky for Buffet. At least they have one client for life! So sad...
Oh Gary Gray and I are good friends. A very nice man. He also likes Steuer reeds. But I'm sure you buy Rico reeds, because you like the taste of pesticides.
Bob
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2017-10-30 06:18)
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Author: echi85
Date: 2017-10-30 06:32
Bob,
I have intentionally avoided ad hominem attacks because it distracts from the issue at hand. I see you lack that restraint. In the words of Michelle Obama, "when they go low, we go high."
Anyone who is interested can google my name to find out my credentials and probably hear the youtube videos I make every year. So far, my videos have helped thousands of young clarinet players in Texas. Clearly I am useless.
In all honesty, if it weren't for this Bboard, I would have no idea who you are. Your products are not known in the professional world nor is your name. I don't think that discredits your products, but it certainly doesn't mean you know what you are talking about either. If you were Brad Behn or Ramon Wodkowski, both of whom I've had the pleasure of working with, this would be a different matter.
FWIW, the orchestras I play with tune to 440. I had no pitch issues. If I did, I wouldn't have used the mouthpieces. But hey, I've only won two blind auditions in my life, what do I know?
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-10-30 06:50
Clarineteer
This is so true about Hans. I was lucky and got to watch him repair horns for about a year. We'd sit and smoke a pipe all day. He did have a temper. A bad one and if he got mad at a client he had no issues with throwing him/her out. His repair room was a total mess, boxes everywhere and he knew where everything was. He showed me how to pick out bells and barrels. Mainly by weight. So your friend was correct, the quality was very good. He looked for light weight bells. He had reamers for his barrels and if you want to know the taper it was a reverse taper he put on his barrels. .590" to 570". Sometimes it was slightly different.
He made most of his cork pads out of wine bottles because the cork was softer and it wouldn't make a noise when the keys went down and hit the holes. He made a special punch and used a wooden hammer. He had friends at local bars, bartenders save the corks for him. A small man hunched over.
What happened was very interesting. The wood supply kind of dried out so they found another area in Africa to get the wood. It was still OK. Even in the early 1970's, but then the bore was changed. I cannot tell you how angry Hans was around 1976 or so. Not long after he retired. He used to tune all of the horns using his trusty 67mm barrel with his Chedeville mouthpiece. Undercutting holes, adjusting key heights, everything. As for the lower joint he used Buffet pads then, they were double bladder and he would order them by the size and each size had 100 pads. He designed a suchen tester which he also made for me and when testing pads only 1 out of 5 or so would pass. The other 4 were thrown out. Today's pads are so much better, even the cork pads are soft.
Then he used a tiny piece of electrical tape if the notes were sharp and undercut the notes which were flat. So a horn, with cork pads, complete tuning, Buffet pads with the lower register would cost you about $75. This included reaming out the bell and a special Moennig barrel. By the way, the Moennig barrels made by Buffet today are not right. Save your money. I've measured them. The final test wass evenness of the scales. Each note had to speak the exact same.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2017-10-30 07:17)
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-10-30 07:09
echi85 - Go away! Silly man!
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: echi85
Date: 2017-10-30 07:16
Bob,
You have yet to offer any refutation of my points. In fact, you seem to discredit yourself more with every post you write.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-10-30 07:18
I'm not gonna post, you are a silly man. I have a doctorate you don't. I'm smart you aren't. Go away! Make the other readers happy too! Geez!
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2017-10-30 07:33)
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2017-10-30 08:37
“In all honesty, if it weren't for this Bboard, I would have no idea who you are. Your products are not known in the professional world nor is your name. I don't think that discredits your products, but it certainly doesn't mean you know what you are talking about either.”
This. 100 times over. Believe me, I’ve tried to search for Bob Bernardo on Google. It's yielded a YouTube video of someone playing a La Vecchia, his contact as a Steuer distributor, and mostly a bunch of forum posts and emails. That’s it. That’s the list.
Now, as Echi85 says, nobody brought this into the discussion before Bob ignorantly said he would never be an asset to the clarinet world. So he brings it on himself. Teenagers trolling Internet forums are sad because they represent wasted potential. I’m not sure what an old man trolling represents.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-10-30 09:13
I can't help it if you guys are so blind! I gave you huge hints. I make more than symphony players. Come on, do I have to tell you everything? There is way more to life than to google my name! lmao Everything has to be handed to readers on a silver spoon. Can't get away from google! I'm keeping this one a secret.
Several of the readers have been to my house and know what I do in the music world. Please don't say anything. Let's see if these clowns can figure it out. Read past postings. It's all there.
Wow people don't know how to read! I've been here for many years and they have no idea who I am. Shocking, but it surely makes sense.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2017-10-30 09:18)
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The Clarinet Pages
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