Advertising and Web Hosting on Woodwind.Org!

Woodwind.OrgThe Clarinet BBoardThe C4 standard

  BBoard Equipment Study Resources Music General    
 New Topic  |  Go to Top  |  Go to Topic  |  Search  |  Help/Rules  |  Smileys/Notes  |  Log In   Newer Topic  |  Older Topic 
 Sticks-n-Stones & Chasing away Pros
Author: KenJarczyk 
Date:   2017-08-10 07:19

I've noticed a disturbing trend on these venerable BBoards. Uber-opinionated bullies seem to be replacing real players. I find myself not checking out this forum more than I had been. There was a time I'd visit a couple times per day, because valuable topics and top notch players were here, all contributing! When's the last time someone of the stature of Gregory Smith posted? May 2016? We actually had the Executive Officer from Buffet post, and the bullies ate him alive! I see the remarkable David Blumberg post interesting things, but the bullies gang up, because he doesn't want to settle for that $20 used Bonade ligature that doesn't keep its shape, or play worn-out e-bay horns. Or lets throw sticks at people because they choose to play a particular Canadian Clarinet, that comes nowhere close to what the bullies claim in price. Maybe we can toss rocks because somewhere on the mouthpiece it says its a Zinner blank. (Gee, only most of the world's best makers use Zinner blanks!) Instead of celebrating Buffet introducing the Legende, let's call everything they make crap! Tell that to the majority of pro symphonic folks. Of course, there are a lot of symphonic professionals playing those horrible dead-dark German Clarinets! What the heck? Let's get back to being a nice, safe place where we all love the clarinet, and celebrate that we are a mix of real professionals, from classical venues, theater pits, jazz joints, or in our heads! There are valuable things folks have to contribute!

Ken Jarczyk
Woodwinds Specialist
Eb, C, Bb, A & Bass Clarinets
Soprano, Alto, Tenor & Baritone Saxophones
Flute, Alto Flute, Piccolo

 Re: Sticks-n-Stones & Chasing away Pros
Author: WhitePlainsDave 
Date:   2017-08-10 07:48

If you should think that's me, fine, but please say so. If you take issue with things I've said, ok, but say so.

I put myself to the microscope with no less----actually more acuity that those I call to task.

If your refer to today, and think David Blumberg posted interesting things, that's your right. I think he posted contradictory things, which can lead to misinformed consumers. David wasn't challenge because of his ligature choice, in fact I've so much as said Silverstein makes great (albeit IMHO overpriced) ligatures.

David was challenged because he sought to set the record straight about endorsement, claiming himself at the highest endorsement artist's level (which I was not bothered by in any sense of bragging,) and detailing all the compensation given to such people, only for him to have to correct both points later.

Performance compensation wasn't a "new topic," as some have suggested, just another form of previously undisclosed artist compensation: the initial post, which it failed to jibe with.

Greg Smith's, Buffet's absence and the rest: nothing to do with it.

Celebrating the clarinet..okay. One way I do so is to let the average player know the hype from the substance so they best advance with their hard earned dollars.

If people want to call my pointing out those who knowingly mislead abuse, which it's not, I can't stop them.

I am certain Ken that the entire premise of your points wasn't [or at least shouldn't be] directed at me....maybe only some of it, maybe little or none.

I happen to hate the group/herd mentality that has people jump aboard the hate wagon if all that awaits them is a sense of belonging, not fact.

That could be Buffet, Silverstein, Martin Frost, Vandoren, me, or others.

By the way, we are not all a mix of real professionals. Many of us come here for informed opinion--all the more reason misleading ideas should be avoided, and challenged when they appear.

Post Edited (2017-08-10 08:04)

 Re: Sticks-n-Stones & Chasing away Pros
Author: Mark Charette 2017
Date:   2017-08-10 08:19

WhitePlainsDave wrote:

> If you should think that's me, fine, but please say so.

Ok. It's you.

 Re: Sticks-n-Stones & Chasing away Pros
Author: J. J. 
Date:   2017-08-10 08:21

The thing about uber-opinionated bullies is:

In school, they're a part of the experience you just have to deal with.

In college, you know they'll eventually get theirs.

In your 20's, you definitely move away from them in the bar.

By your 30’s, it almost doesn't matter what they say, because they're irrelevant.

Tell me that's not applicable to the current situation.

 Re: Sticks-n-Stones & Chasing away Pros
Author: zhangray4 
Date:   2017-08-10 08:29

People on here should have the right to express whatever opinion they have freely on the BBoard. If they hate Buffets, fine. If they hate Zinners fine. Music is extremely subjective. Would there be a real point of this BBoard if everyone were forced to say how good Buffet, Vandoren, Zinner, Legere, Backun, Silverstein ... ? Would there be a point for this BBoard if everything were just so great?

What's the point of complimenting a certain brand if you just don't like it, just so you get to talk to "someone of the stature of Gregory Smith"? What's the use of pleasing these famous people?

For me, a high school senior, I come onto this BBoard to gain some general knowledge of the clarinet world. What reeds/mouthpieces do many people prefer? Why do they hate/like a certain brand? I ask questions and I can get the opinions of a dozen. These are all subjective, I know, but its always nice to know what other people think, to understand major shifts in the clarinet world, like the clarinet sound, equipment, etc.

I would like to say though: although people are entitled to their opinions and their right to express them, we should all try to instill a friendly atmosphere. Instead of saying "Buffet is trash," why not say something like "in my opinion, Buffet's clarinets can vary greatly from one clarinet to another." Or "I feel that Buffet focuses more on marketing than on improving the quality of their instruments." (These may not be my opinions, just making this up as examples). We can talk about these matters more politely, but we should be able to talk about them.

-- Ray Zhang

 Re: Sticks-n-Stones & Chasing away Pros
Author: Hank Lehrer 2017
Date:   2017-08-10 17:54

White Plains Dave,

I agree with Mark. It's you.

My grandfather would best describe your responses as "windy." Your posts reek with hubris. You begin threads on some of the strangest of topics. Your explanations/comments are long and rambling.

I think that's enough for me to say,


PS Please note that I have a profile listed by my name as well as my email address. Had you done the same, I would have sent you a private email much earlier.

 Re: Sticks-n-Stones & Chasing away Pros
Author: Tobin 
Date:   2017-08-10 18:35


That endorsing artists don't like it when their half truths and misleading statements about product get challenged....

WPDave -- you are the only person who misread David Blumberg's statements. No one else had any problem understanding what he meant. That you can't recognize your misunderstanding and that you continue to incorrectly imply that Blumberg has an ulterior motive is a statement about you and the axe you have to grind.

You haven't exposed some hidden truth or nefarious deal behind endorsements. You haven't actually contributed anything about endorsements yourself (that I've read), you've simply inaccurately picked apart other people's statements.

From what Blumberg described -- there isn't enough money in endorsements to truly sway a professional performer from simply playing what they prefer to play in the first place.

End nefarious scheme to sway the junior members of the clarinet world.


Gnothi Seauton

 Re: Sticks-n-Stones & Chasing away Pros
Author: Noqu 
Date:   2017-08-10 18:51

@White Plains Dave: Yes, I would agree that it's definitely you. Since your long and rambling comments have started dominating most discussions here, I find this forum has become quite unattractive. But then, I am just a lurker who rarely writes anything, so why should you care ...

 Re: Sticks-n-Stones & Chasing away Pros
Author: ClarinetRobt 
Date:   2017-08-10 19:05

I think we can all rest assure clarinet pros aren't getting endorsements deals like Shaq or Tiger. I know I haven't received a new Tag Heuer or a case of Gold Bond. But I'm a small fish in a smaller pond.

I agree there's nothing nefarious going on - not sure I'd care one way or the other. Pros have put in the practice time and have given brilliant performances. If they get a free ligature or a bigger room at the Marriott for their effort, good for them.

Equipment seekers are always going to be in the market...they feed the market, the market provides. (Insert USA chant here). I know driving the "figurative sports car" hasn't improved my sex appeal. I doubt a 'murdered' out clarinet is going to make anyone play any better. An educated consumer has realize this in their own time.

I'm sure all agree that a student should spend their money on Baermann III and various etudes books and start practicing. But if I had a student that could afford a Buffet Legende with cool Silverstein Maestro Ligature on a Behn Epic mouthpiece, more power to them. Others seem to do just as well on a beautiful, used Ridenour, Giardinelli Clarinet Ligature, and a Behn Overature.

 Re: Sticks-n-Stones & Chasing away Pros
Author: DavidBlumberg 
Date:   2017-08-10 19:46

Indeed there is not $$$$'s to disuade a player to play from one thing to another.

It's literally always "I like to play this, and then the Company goes after me for it as an Artist for them" which means that they can legally use my name to say that I play it, or have an ad that I am quoted in as describing what I like about it.

Literally zero players are getting rich, being able to even afford an Apartment from any endorsers payments.

The Silverstein 300 Centigrade below Zero treatment of the Ligature Kevlar that is used can be to some considered "hocus" and no way it could possibly do anything whatsoever, yet I know of another company (that is completely non related in the product line) who DOES use that technology, but due to intellectual law reasons will not publically admit that it uses the cryo technology.

So that other company is treating a product with a "hocus" technology, but not at all making that public - that does that mean?? That the Company believes that it makes a difference.

I feel a difference between all of the Ligatures that I own. Each one plays slightly different, from enhancing harmonics, to deadening them, to easing articulation, to not affecting much at all.

Does any of that make you go from 140 to 160 in Articulation? Nope, but it can help you get there. When I compared the Solid Gold Maestro to the Rose Gold (which there was about a $400 cost difference between the 2, and yes, it was $$$'s), I couldn't possibly justify that spending the $$"s on it was that much better as to warrant it, but it was something nice that did help.

When I tried the BG Gold plating over Silver compared to the Gold plated over Copper, I could tell the difference - it was obvious to me, but I did NOT know that there was a difference as was not told there was. Both were Gold colored, but one played better than the other one. This was in my studio at home, so not in a crowded hall attempting to get a tone in around the drone in the depths of an ICA Conference Clarinet Hell.

But no product makes you play more musically, nor better in tune that listening with a good ear, and actually making the phrases sing.

What I don't need is someone nitpicking my posting, nor deeply analyzing a posting of mine, as what I write is quickly written, and off of the cuff.

If something I write doesn't make sense, please ask again, but don't bust on me as I'm doing the best that I can with what I've got  ;)

Sponsored by Backun/D'Addario/BG/Silverstein/ Artist Teacher and Soloist

 Re: Sticks-n-Stones & Chasing away Pros
Author: DavidBlumberg 
Date:   2017-08-10 19:46

and thanks Ken!!

Sponsored by Backun/D'Addario/BG/Silverstein/ Artist Teacher and Soloist

 Re: Sticks-n-Stones & Chasing away Pros
Author: Tony F 
Date:   2017-08-10 20:17

White Plains Dave,
There seems to be nothing that you don't have an opinion on and that you are prepared to go to enormous lengths to express. I've noticed a falling off of the quality of postings since you arrived on the scene, and I suspect that this is because people who might otherwise contribute don't feel like having their every utterance picked apart. Mentally I've set you to "ignore" when I read posts, it's just not worth the time it takes to wade through your layers of pedantic waffle to get at the nub of whatever it is that you're trying to say. I think you are the sort of person who could pick a fight if they were locked in a room on their own. Just my opinion.

Tony F.

 Re: Sticks-n-Stones & Chasing away Pros
Author: dorjepismo 2017
Date:   2017-08-10 20:48

Don't want to add any additional negativity, but would suggest that one thing that can come off as rude and disrespectful is speaking as if one understands someone else's experiences with things like sound, materials, equipment, and so on, better than the person who is sharing those experiences, or telling them they can't possibly be experiencing what they say they are. If they're paying one a couple hundred an hour for therapy, then fair enough, but otherwise that kind of thing would be best avoided. Not in any way singling out Dave for this. We all have different experiences, and can benefit when more people are comfortable enough to share them honestly.

 Re: Sticks-n-Stones & Chasing away Pros
Author: fskelley 
Date:   2017-08-10 21:01

I had a nice 1-day experience at Clarinet Fest that I declined to post about. For obvious reasons.

Stan in Orlando

EWI 4000S with modifications

 Re: Sticks-n-Stones & Chasing away Pros
Author: Tobin 
Date:   2017-08-10 21:16

Well said dorjepismo!

Gnothi Seauton

 Re: Sticks-n-Stones & Chasing away Pros
Author: bradfordlloyd 
Date:   2017-08-11 00:00

Apparently, many feel the same way. Wow.

 Re: Sticks-n-Stones & Chasing away Pros
Author: KenJarczyk 
Date:   2017-08-11 00:21

I guess my point hit home with a few! There is no problem having differences of opinion. The best discussions all have passion somewhere behind them. One thing I've always followed, from a teacher long ago - Experience trumps theory. If you're playing a Prestige RC on a Behn with a Silverstein with Legere Euro Cut 3-1/2, and everything is fine in your universe, what difference will it really make if a hobbyist tells you you're full of poop? It doesn't change your experience, but it may make you less likely to participate in an otherwise extremely valuable blog-board such as this. And toward this end is why I spoke up. I miss hearing any bit of advice from someone like Gregory Smith! If I read that one of the clarinetists in the CSO says "scrape your reed from this point to that" I'm probably going to grab a reed and at least look at what that means, or what it does. Somebody such as David Blumberg - with extreme international street-cred, tells us something, I'm sorry if I sound elitist, but He holds more weight and authority than some others! I have my opinions, and I do tend to share them here, but usually when I do have that experience over theory. I've lived many years in many orchestras (mostly minor ones), many Theater Pits (some major ones), toured with and played with many of the best Jazz Artists and entertainment acts around, all over the last 47 of my 61 years, and plan on continuing to play and improve until the Rabbi and my family members pile little rocks on my headstone!

Ken Jarczyk
Woodwinds Specialist
Eb, C, Bb, A & Bass Clarinets
Soprano, Alto, Tenor & Baritone Saxophones
Flute, Alto Flute, Piccolo

 Re: Sticks-n-Stones & Chasing away Pros
Author: nellsonic 
Date:   2017-08-11 00:23

Yes, time to change the tune. I think everyone has been admirably patient with Dave's relentless and repetitive tirades but now it's finally come time for a group intervention. I hope it will help and that we can get back to having fun soon!

Dave, I hope you can sort out whatever is causing your anti-social posting and email behavior and be happier for it. Life's too short!

Post Edited (2017-08-11 00:25)

 Re: Sticks-n-Stones & Chasing away Pros
Author: thereallukasj 
Date:   2017-08-11 00:47

@zhangray4 I totally agree, I have asked before about people's preferences on say mouthpieces or reeds maybe and all i get is "get what feels best to you". This is the generic answer from people on the board when a question of choice is presented. Sometimes people like me are just interested in what people use to educate ourselves on new products. Im not getting into the issue at hand but i will contribute that.

 Re: Sticks-n-Stones & Chasing away Pros
Author: cigleris 
Date:   2017-08-11 02:19

Thank you Ken for your post.


"Get what feels for you" is something that is said because you as an individual should try as much as possible in order to make an educated descion on what you want at that moment in time.

Don't rely on others to educate yourself. Know what you want and find it. Amateurs and professionals will help but they shouldn't, imo, tell you you must play this. Why? Because you will not be able to develop the sound you want to create. At the end of the day the choice is yours and yours alone.

Peter Cigleris

 Re: Sticks-n-Stones & Chasing away Pros
Author: kdk 2017
Date:   2017-08-11 02:40

thereallukasj wrote:

> @zhangray4 I totally agree, I have asked before about people's
> preferences on say mouthpieces or reeds maybe and all i get is
> "get what feels best to you". This is the generic answer from
> people on the board when a question of choice is presented.
> Sometimes people like me are just interested in what people use
> to educate ourselves on new products.

The problem may be the way the question is worded. Most of the time, it's worded something like, "What do you guys think of..." or "What's the best ...." Maybe what some of those who post equipment questions really want to know (and might more productively ask) is "What [reed/mouthpiece/clarinet] do you on the board play and do you have specific reasons why?" Those really are very different questions, but this last one won't eliminate the trial and error that everyone has to go through to choose equipment.


 Re: Sticks-n-Stones & Chasing away Pros
Author: two toots 2017
Date:   2017-08-11 02:46

Wow! Such piling on!

 Re: Sticks-n-Stones & Chasing away Pros
Author: Dan Shusta 
Date:   2017-08-11 03:29

two toots: I don't see this as "let's gang up on so-and -so".

IMHO, this is, as nellsonic stated, a group intervention.

Again, IMHO, David Blumberg and cigleris have taken quite a verbal beating from WPDave and they certainly did NOT deserve it.

Hopefully, WPDave will "see the light", realize that he has some sort of social problem and will do whatever needs to be done for the sake of his own mental health and well being.

I have been at the receiving end of WPDave's wrath and I can assure you it's no fun.

I honestly do wish him well.

 Re: Sticks-n-Stones & Chasing away Pros
Author: fskelley 
Date:   2017-08-11 04:25

Dave- you mix good solid advice with enough venom and hubris (that's a great word) to render it unpalatable and make it appear worthless. In any profession (I have a couple in mind) that's enough to drive away clients, lose jobs, lose good employees, and generally do poorly in spite of great talent and ability. I am on my own journey and have absorbed some of the truth in your pronouncements and ignored what I know to be incorrect. I do not care what you think or comment.

Your example of behavior and attitude to young students is far far (how many "far"s should I put here?) far worse than anything they could read on bboard about equipment or study habits.

I suspect this thread will have a short life.

Stan in Orlando

EWI 4000S with modifications

 Re: Sticks-n-Stones & Chasing away Pros
Author: Tobin 
Date:   2017-08-11 04:57

Two Toots above comments about a "pile-on".

Offboard, in other venues, I've commented that I've never seen the BB community come together so unanimously in opposition to a contributor.

The misunderstanding, condescension, hubris, and implacability of WhitePlainsDave has clearly had a negative affect on the BB -- as evidenced by those who have commented on the recet change in dialogue and participation, as well by this and other threads in the past week.

I have had an opportunity to read one of WhitePlainsDave's offboard communications. I am aghast at the volume of the one communication -- not to mention the condescension, hyperbole, and venom. The posts here are short and polite by comparison.

For the record I welcome communication from anyone to my email address -- but not WhitePlainsDave.

I hope that he finds the help he needs. The BB is not where he's going to find it, however.


Gnothi Seauton

 Re: Sticks-n-Stones & Chasing away Pros
Author: KenJarczyk 
Date:   2017-08-11 05:25

γνῶθι σεαυτόν
Very good, James.

Ken Jarczyk
Woodwinds Specialist
Eb, C, Bb, A & Bass Clarinets
Soprano, Alto, Tenor & Baritone Saxophones
Flute, Alto Flute, Piccolo

 Re: Sticks-n-Stones & Chasing away Pros
Author: WhitePlainsDave 
Date:   2017-08-11 07:10

I'd love to comment; my last attempt was erased. Interestingly enough, comments to it seem to have been kept.

Post Edited (2017-08-11 07:12)

 Avail. Forums  |  Threaded View   Newer Topic  |  Older Topic 

 This thread is closed 
Search Woodwind.Org

Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale

The Clarinet Pages
is sponsored by:

For Sale
Put your ads for items you'd like to sell here. Free! Please, no more than two at a time - ads removed after two weeks.

Mouthpieces & Barrels
Fine makers of mouthpieces and barrels, from wood to crystal to hard rubber and plastic

Music & Books
CDs, Sheet Music, and some of the greatest reference books ever written!

Instrument repairs, restorations, adjustments, and overhauls.

Major events especially for clarinetists

Retailers and manufacturers of clarinets, both modern and early replica

Great reeds available from around the world

Services and products too varied to categorize! Repair, recording, news

Accessories that every clarinetist needs - reed makers and shapers, ligatures, greases, oils, and preservatives ... and more!

     Copyright © Woodwind.Org, Inc. All Rights Reserved    Privacy Policy    Contact