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 Logic vs Gut? Picking new Clarinet
Author: GenEric 
Date:   2017-08-09 10:14

I've had several chances to get a new clarinet but I've turned all of them now. Right now, I'm playing with my Noblissima. Currently, I'm pretty not that happy with it and getting that new clarinet will really give me that incentive to practice more. My noblissima is REALLY resistant and there is a metallic sound on line 5 f and f# chromatic and it's frustrating to play. I've basically come down to the CSVR and the R13.

CSVR:
Pros:
Seems to be very popular in this forum
Much less expensive
Going against social norms (not part of the Buffet band wagon feels good!)
consistent (no need to pick 1 out)
Cons:
Don't think I can trust the internet. Not happy with my Ridenour but oddly enough, highly praised on this forum
Harder to find stores/repair people that really know how to fix it
only place to get it is Buena park or online. Yamaha plant rejected me so online is really only choice

R13:
Pros:
mindset that I'm playing on most popular instrument. (more likely to worry less about instrument and more about getting better)
easier to obtain. Lots of shops + online ie: lisa clarinets, ebay, etc
popular instrument so parts and repairs should be better
Cons:
VERY expensive. almost 2k more for the silver plated option if brand new
inconsistent

Right now, it's basically gut vs logic. Logically, the Yamaha should be the better buy because many people have positive feedback on it. However, my gut tells me to just get the R13, forget it, and get better at clarinet.

Opinions?

Also, anyone know any good places to get CSVRs? I currently live at San Jose and there are no music stores that have CSVRs. Also, if Yamaha is releasing a new clarinet, should I wait for that?

 
 Re: Logic vs Gut? Picking new Clarinet
Author: gwie 2017
Date:   2017-08-09 10:57

>Harder to find stores/repair people that really know how to fix it

This is not true. It doesn't have any wacky extra keywork or strange implementations of the basics mechanism Any competent technician is able to service it.

My last three students all chose a new CSVR over an equivalent new R-13 for a couple reasons:

1. Cost - A CSVR with silver-plated keys is a thousand dollars less than the equivalent R-13 with silver-plated keys.

2. Intonation - Don't take anyone's word for it. Sit down with an electronic tuner and check where most of the pitches land...the CSVR has fewer irritating intonation quirks than the R-13, especially in the throat tones.

3. Yamaha's keywork and fit/finish is much better "out of the box." This high level of consistency is found throughout their entire product line.

Personally, I'm done going to stores for my students and having to play through dozens of instruments to find a "good one." Yamaha produces instruments that play consistently from one to the next, so that musicians don't waste valuable time playing an instrument lottery. If your instrument is lost or damaged, you can easily acquire another that will behave pretty much exactly the same.

Use their dealer locator here:
https://www.yamaha.com/paragon/dealerlocator/

I did a search on a random San Jose zip code and saw about a dozen Yamaha dealers within a 15 mile radius.

Call ahead to the shops and see if they have the CSVR in stock, or whether they can order you one to try.

I'll admit, I've gotten a few unhappy reports from some folks who have been trying to get in touch with the Buena Park Atelier. Without getting into the specifics, my student and her family said to heck with Yamaha and ended up going to RDG Woodwinds instead. One thing that Yamaha could improve on is how that particular aspect of their customer relations functions, or whether they should even do it at all, and just try to get their instruments out to more shops in general. They have some fairly stringent requirements for their authorized dealers, which makes it difficult for smaller stores to stock their product.

I do want to say though, don't discount a used R-13! In the past, Buffet used better wood for their R-13 line, wood that today is held in reserve for their higher-end models. You might want to contact Jonathan Copeland, who restores them to like-new condition. Then you can be on the Buffet bandwagon, AND pay a much better price. :)

 
 Re: Logic vs Gut? Picking new Clarinet
Author: dorjepismo 2017
Date:   2017-08-09 17:34

Opinion on gut vs. logic, not the two kinds of instrument. When I think of "gut," I think of the way I want to approach the music--what I want the sound, dynamic range, resistance, and so on to be--not how I or other people will feel about an instrument after I buy it. Since I don't do it for a living, what I want is a matter of personal preference; if I did do it for a living, it would incorporate the sound, etc., most likely to get a job as well as personal preference. But logic doesn't tell you what you want to sound like musically; it just tells you the best way to get there after you've understood what that is. If you can reasonably afford either, then deciding on the basis of price or convenience probably won't make you the happiest in the long run.



 
 Re: Logic vs Gut? Picking new Clarinet
Author: WhitePlainsDave 
Date:   2017-08-09 19:00

"getting that new clarinet will really give me that incentive to practice more"

IMHO, wrong logic.

Let's talk about buying a new instrument, to take you to the next level, after you're already really motivated.

My 2 cents: you're "putting the cart before the horse."

Studies have shown that within reason, we learn to adapt and except whatever level of status our money can buy. To point, in time, that dream clarinet will just become your ordinary go to instrument and no longer provide the incentive you speak of if the fire doesn't already exist within.

 
 Re: Logic vs Gut? Picking new Clarinet
Author: ClarinetRobt 
Date:   2017-08-09 20:53

Eric:
I'm mostly troubled by your experience with Ridenour. I have a Libertas and can't say enough nice things about it. Perhaps the key work isn't as good as a CSVR or R13, but it ain't bad. Tom has made marked improvements. Which model do you have, what's lacking with the horn, and have you contacted Tom? Despite diligent quality control, you might have gotten a dud...stranger things have happened. Call Tom let him do his magic. Just a thought. Ted (Tom's son) is a super nice guy. I can't imagine they wouldn't help you with your concerns.

I mention this to piggyback on Dave's thoughts. Maybe a little TLC can get you a Ridenour you love and won't need to buy new. At the very least, if you're like me and play A LOT outside in excruciating environmental conditions, you'll need your Ridenour.

I certainly appreciate your right brain, left brain dilemma. I'm the same way. But the heart wants what the heart wants. I've been trying new horns recently and the CSVR is way ahead of the pack. I already have a terrific Prestige (I was lucky to have Phil Muncy pick a brilliant horn for me eons ago.) So I'm battling my internal struggle of what I want vs what I need. I want a new horn, I don't need a new horn.

Seriously, see if Tom Ridenour can't help you no matter what. Start auditioning clarinets. You'll find your ultimate love.

~Robert L Schwebel
Mthpc: Behn Vintage, Lig: Ishimori, Reed: Aria 4, Legere Euro Signature 3.75

 
 Re: Logic vs Gut? Picking new Clarinet
Author: Wookie001 
Date:   2017-08-09 21:36

I think with the R13 you can't do anything wrong, it's simply a great clarinet.

If it was my choice, I would take the R13.

and don't forget the mouthpiece/reed combo plays a maybe even more important role.

 
 Re: Logic vs Gut? Picking new Clarinet
Author: jdbassplayer 
Date:   2017-08-10 00:52

ClarinetRobt,

The model he has is the Noblissima, which is the student model.

Honestly I think OP was expecting too much out of his instrument, it's like saying Selmers are bad because the Bundy is not a great instrument. Mr Ridenours pro models are quite good but the Noblissima was never on the same level, despite the fact that Tom compared it to the 576.

It's like they say, you get what you pay for.

If I was OP I would talk to Mr. Ridenour and see if I could trade in the Noblissma and get a 576 or a Libertas. Both of these are solid players priced well below the R13 or CSVR.

-Jdbassplayer

Edit: Spelling



Post Edited (2017-08-10 02:22)

 
 Re: Logic vs Gut? Picking new Clarinet
Author: ClarinetRobt 
Date:   2017-08-10 02:41

And I'd say the CSVR out R13s the R13. No parlor tricks are needed to have an amazing instrument straight out of the box.

I'm going to try an Uebel Superior in the upcoming months (maybe), but CSVR is closest thing to perfection...without all the aggravation...on the market right now.

After you buy the CSVR we can debate about the perfect mouthpiece. And a $1300 ligature...a must have! (joking)

~Robert L Schwebel
Mthpc: Behn Vintage, Lig: Ishimori, Reed: Aria 4, Legere Euro Signature 3.75

 
 Re: Logic vs Gut? Picking new Clarinet
Author: GenEric 
Date:   2017-08-10 07:38

All of you guys make really compelling arguments. I should probably stick to my Noblissima and really get to know it and find the reason why I wanted it in the first place. I've just got a hold of Mr. Ridenour and I'm sending in my Noblissima to get it checked and see if anything is wrong with it. I'll hold on to trading it for a 576 unless he says it's really bad.

Thanks guys, I really hope that I find love in my old clarinet.

 
 Re: Logic vs Gut? Picking new Clarinet
Author: Wookie001 
Date:   2017-08-10 09:08

whether you buy the R13, CSVR or stick with your current one:

it's important that you feel comfortable with the instrument, it doesn't matter which one is popular.


I used to think Selmer has to be the best saxophone brand since so many pros play them. then I tried one, and didn't like it at all.

 
 Re: Logic vs Gut? Picking new Clarinet
Author: Clarineteer 
Date:   2017-08-10 12:39

Experts at testing instruments say the the professional Yamaha clarinets do not project as well as the R13's.

 
 Re: Logic vs Gut? Picking new Clarinet
Author: jdbassplayer 
Date:   2017-08-10 16:23

Clarineteer wrote:

> Experts at testing instruments say the the professional Yamaha
> clarinets do not project as well as the R13s.

Exactly who are "expert instrument testers"? I've never heard anyone complain about projection problems with the CSVR. In fact I think the many Yamaha players around the world would argue that they project just as well if not better that the R13.

-Jdbassplayer

 
 Re: Logic vs Gut? Picking new Clarinet
Author: Steven Ocone 2017
Date:   2017-08-10 17:35

The Noblissima needs repair. Not that you shouldn't get a new clarinet.

Repairing a Yamaha is no different than repairing a Buffet. (I repair clarinets for a living).

You may want to try some intermediate clarinets.

Internet forums aren't good places to try out instruments.

Make sure you have a good mouthpiece and a variety of reeds when you try out new instruments.

Steven Ocone
Ann & Steve's Music

 
 Re: Logic vs Gut? Picking new Clarinet
Author: richard smith 
Date:   2017-08-10 18:27

No. Try before buy, for all price ranges.

 
 Re: Logic vs Gut? Picking new Clarinet
Author: Tom Puwalski 
Date:   2017-08-12 18:58

Take the Yamaha, leave the cannoli Tom Puwalski

 
 Re: Logic vs Gut? Picking new Clarinet
Author: awildman 
Date:   2017-08-12 19:21

I'm all in favor of buying the best instrument you can afford. (Note that dollar amount does not necessarily equal best.) If money is not an issue, I'd vote to upgrade as soon as you can.

If money is a consideration, then you have a tougher decision.

 
 Re: Logic vs Gut? Picking new Clarinet
Author: NBeaty 
Date:   2017-08-12 20:16

The Selmer Preasance (sp?) is quite good and in the 3K range. Well worth considering, a number of pros have switched to this model (despite it not being their top of the line/most expensive).

A really good used R13 can still be well worth trying. If you find one that has been cared for well, it'll leave you with some money left over for some extra goodies like a barrel and bell from Behn.

 
 Re: Logic vs Gut? Picking new Clarinet
Author: Ashle TK 
Date:   2017-08-13 03:03

I have the same decision to make very soon. I have a yamaha 650 and want to upgrade. At a yamaha event I was able to try several Csvrs, some CSGs and compare them to the R13s they had. Needless to say, the R13s sounded dead. My teacher prefers Buffets, and offered to go to RDG with me, but I really liked the Yamaha Csvrs better.

 
 Re: Logic vs Gut? Picking new Clarinet
Author: Wookie001 
Date:   2017-08-13 15:19

I listened to the Yamaha CSVR and the Buffet R13 in comparison, and to be honest the R13 sounds much better.

if you already spend a good amount of money on an instrument, I wouldn't make compromises.

 
 Re: Logic vs Gut? Picking new Clarinet
Author: Ed 
Date:   2017-08-13 16:06

The R13 has been a standard instrument for years. They are good instruments, but have their quirks. Yamaha makes instruments that are really well designed, play really well with great response, intonation and sound.

The only way to really know what you prefer is to go play both. I do think the Yamaha is worthy of very serious consideration.

 
 Re: Logic vs Gut? Picking new Clarinet
Author: Clarineteer 
Date:   2017-08-13 16:08
Attachment:  11.jpg (516k)

Just finished a total restoration of a 1967 R13 serial number 99,000 with nickel plated keys. Had the chance to compare it to a 1953 R13, 1971 R13 and a 1982 R13 and this one really is a cut above and really sings. Check out the pic.

 
 Re: Logic vs Gut? Picking new Clarinet
Author: Jordan Selburn 
Date:   2017-08-14 09:13

You might want to try West Valley Music in Mountain View. They're Yamaha dealers, and stock higher-level instruments than do most stores so *might* possibly have a CSVR to try.

I play the CSG II, think it's a remarkable horn and well worth giving a try as well if you're looking to get something new.

Jordan

 
 Re: Logic vs Gut? Picking new Clarinet
Author: GenEric 
Date:   2017-08-14 09:36

Oops... I totally forgot about West Valley Music. They have almost everything! I would be so happy to try out some of the instruments to see if it's worth the fortune to upgrade.

 
 Re: Logic vs Gut? Picking new Clarinet
Author: Tom Puwalski 
Date:   2017-08-14 16:55

I've gone through a multi year process of playing all the clarinets by all the major manufactures as well as some well known boutique makers . After spending a year playing a beautiful set of Toscas a Bb Divine and a tradition, I had the opportunity to try a Yamaha CSVR. This clarinet is now my "go to " clarinet. It's just a better clarinet then anything else I've played.

I would not buy another brand clarinet without trying a Yamaha. I would also never listen to any advice on this board from a post that someone doesn't sign thier name.

I might actually keep my Buffet Divine, it is without a doubt, for me, the best Buffet I've ever played. I'm not just saying this, I own these Buffets, they're good, but the Yamahas edge them out.

Tom Puwalski

 
 Re: Logic vs Gut? Picking new Clarinet
Author: Wookie001 
Date:   2017-08-14 23:10

Tom Puwalski wrote:

> I've gone through a multi year process of playing all the
> clarinets by all the major manufactures as well as some well
> known boutique makers . After spending a year playing a
> beautiful set of Toscas a Bb Divine and a tradition, I had the
> opportunity to try a Yamaha CSVR. This clarinet is now my "go
> to " clarinet. It's just a better clarinet then anything else
> I've played.
>
> I would not buy another brand clarinet without trying a Yamaha.
> I would also never listen to any advice on this board from a
> post that someone doesn't sign thier name.
>
> I might actually keep my Buffet Divine, it is without a doubt,
> for me, the best Buffet I've ever played. I'm not just saying
> this, I own these Buffets, they're good, but the Yamahas edge
> them out.
>
> Tom Puwalski


It's really a matter of personal taste. Everyone has to try out and buy what they prefer. For me Buffet is No. 1.

 
 Re: Logic vs Gut? Picking new Clarinet
Author: DavidBlumberg 
Date:   2017-08-14 23:31

Does that Yamaha have the sound that you seek? Tone is the most often complaint about that line.

And as mentioned, you need to be motivated on your own. Don't expect the new instrument to make much of a difference once it's not new anymore.

Even in a Mercedes I still don't like long trips.......

http://www.MyTempoMusic.com

http://www.skypeclarinetlessons.com/about.html

Sponsored by Backun/D'Addario/BG/Silverstein/ Artist Teacher and Soloist

 
 Re: Logic vs Gut? Picking new Clarinet
Author: Clarineteer 
Date:   2017-08-15 01:07

Tom,
Do not forget to try the new Buffet Legende when they are available. It just might be your new go to clarinet.

 
 Re: Logic vs Gut? Picking new Clarinet
Author: Tom Puwalski 
Date:   2017-08-15 01:13

Who is Wookie001? a name would be a good thing. I like to respect people's opinions but I like to know whose they are.

Tom Puwalski

 
 Re: Logic vs Gut? Picking new Clarinet
Author: Wookie001 
Date:   2017-08-15 01:38

Tom Puwalski wrote:

> Who is Wookie001? a name would be a good thing. I like to
> respect people's opinions but I like to know whose they are.
>
> Tom Puwalski

I also respect your opinion here, but no sorry, I generally don't use my real name on Internet forums. and I don't think that's necessary.

 
 Re: Logic vs Gut? Picking new Clarinet
Author: Max S-D 
Date:   2017-08-15 07:21

I play an R13 and have played that same instrument for about 12 years now with absolutely no desire to try anything else in that time period. It just does what I want it to do and I don't feel limited at all. I love that.

If I were buying an instrument today, though, I'd definitely try a few brands, including Yamaha. I have played a Yamaha tenor sax for the last 14 years and I also love that horn. The build quality and keywork are impeccable and the intonation is dead-on.

Some people knock Yamahas for not having good tone, but I've never been in a situation where somebody had an issue with my tone that I felt was the fault of my horn, nor have I ever felt like the Yamaha was keeping me from producing a tone that I could call my own. Same with my R13. Tone is something that we do, not something that we buy.

I'd also probably be looking into used R13s. No shame in a used instrument and the price difference is huge, considering that you can get an instrument that is just as good (some would argue better) than a new one. My friend has a used R13 that she picked up for a pretty reasonable price a few years back. I'm pretty sure she just bought it online without ever playing it. I tried her horn against mine (which I picked out brand new from a bunch of new ones when I bought it) and...I think hers might have been a little bit better. Some people are just lucky, I guess.

It sounds like you need to go play some instruments, though. Find something that you can afford that makes you feel comfortable and then practice. And don't look back!

 
 Re: Logic vs Gut? Picking new Clarinet
Author: nellsonic 
Date:   2017-08-15 09:35

"I think with the R13 you can't do anything wrong, it's simply a great clarinet."

If you get lucky. Some are great. Some are duds. The variability is excessive. This is something a buyer needs to be aware of and come to terms with.

"I listened to the Yamaha CSVR and the Buffet R13 in comparison, and to be honest the R13 sounds much better."

This means less than nothing unless what you were listening to was YOU playing them.



Post Edited (2017-08-15 11:20)

 
 Re: Logic vs Gut? Picking new Clarinet
Author: Wookie001 
Date:   2017-08-15 14:50

nellsonic wrote:

> "I think with the R13 you can't do anything wrong, it's simply
> a great clarinet."
>
> If you get lucky. Some are great. Some are duds. The
> variability is excessive. This is something a buyer needs to be
> aware of and come to terms with.

yeh, there may be some bad ones, it's best to choose out of 4 or 5 instruments if that's possible.

but even if it depends a lot on who plays the clarinet, Buffet clarinets have that certain something in their sound that Yamahas just don't have.



Post Edited (2017-08-15 14:55)

 
 Re: Logic vs Gut? Picking new Clarinet
Author: gwie 2017
Date:   2017-08-16 22:24

So, we need to play four or five in order to find one that isn't "bad," but somehow there is a unifying sound constant for all of them? Or only the good ones?

 
 Re: Logic vs Gut? Picking new Clarinet
Author: Wookie001 
Date:   2017-08-16 23:32

gwie wrote:

> So, we need to play four or five in order to find one that
> isn't "bad," but somehow there is a unifying sound constant for
> all of them? Or only the good ones?

yes, there is a unifying sound constant. believe me, there's a good reason that Buffet is the No 1 professional clarinet brand.

also, bad is probably the wrong word. there are some extraordinary good ones, the others are still very good.

 
 Re: Logic vs Gut? Picking new Clarinet
Author: nellsonic 
Date:   2017-08-17 08:45

Wookie001 wrote:


> yes, there is a unifying sound constant. believe me, there's a
> good reason that Buffet is the No 1 professional clarinet
> brand.

Yes, there is a reason Buffet is #1. It's a strong reason but not a particularly good one: tradition. It's a status symbol in most high school band rooms. Reality will catch up with Buffet some year or decade soon if they can't produce a consistent ready-to-play entry level professional grade product and others can, especially if there's a significant price difference.

> also, bad is probably the wrong word. there are some
> extraordinary good ones, the others are still very good.

Nope. There ARE some BAD Buffets out there, and they are not rare. Are you speaking from heresay or your own personal experience? Once you've become a highly proficient player and then played and evaluated many dozens of R13's the truth becomes quite clear.

I love my 1980's R13, and it's recently become my primary Bb clarinet again, but that doesn't mean that all Buffets are great. I've played some, especially new ones in recent years, that are worse in some critical ways than my Vito.

I understand you're on "Team Buffet" and hopefully you've got a great instrument. However, presenting your opinion that Buffets are 'the best no matter what' as fact is not really helpful to anyone.

 
 Re: Logic vs Gut? Picking new Clarinet
Author: dorjepismo 2017
Date:   2017-08-17 17:32

Buffets in general work better for some people than others. A lot depends on the kind of sound and playing characteristics you like, and there's also some dependence on how much time and money you have to search for a setup that works for you, as well as how lucky you are in the search. The R13 and models based on it, though, really do have a distinctive sound when everything comes together for a player that is very attractive to a lot of people, many of whom sit on audition committees.

 
 Re: Logic vs Gut? Picking new Clarinet
Author: Fuzzy 
Date:   2017-08-17 18:22

Please take the following questions at face value...no sarcasm or malice is intended:

Is there some type of condensed comparison online between Buffet and other brands? Some type of blind listening test? I'd truly love to hear the "...distinctive sound..." folks talk about. My entire section (except me) played Buffet back at the University, but I never heard the distinctive sound...perhaps the skill level of us as a whole was lacking.

Could most of you pick out the Buffet from a blind listening test?

Thanks,
Fuzzy

 
 Re: Logic vs Gut? Picking new Clarinet
Author: dorjepismo 2017
Date:   2017-08-17 19:41

Fuzzy, I think many of us could pick out a good recording of Marcellus from most others based on the sound, and for maybe two or three decades, that seemed to win more auditions than any single other kind of sound or playing. The fact that it was reproducible using a combination of equipment and techniques Marcellus taught says something. Have heard at least one excellent player who, in my opinion, lost an element of ping after switching away from Buffets.

 
 Re: Logic vs Gut? Picking new Clarinet
Author: Fuzzy 
Date:   2017-08-17 21:16

Thanks for the response, and it does somewhat answer the question...but I guess I'm curious about the instrument vs the player.

I, too, could pick out Marcellus - as one of my instructors in college was an adherent to Marcellus. She had a great sound too...but (to me) she sounded exactly the same when she played my non-Buffet instrument.

That's why I'm curious about a blind test...admittedly, I'd suspect it would be difficult to find a non-biased blind test...but still. I'm trying to figure out if there's truly "a sound" that I'm somehow missing. If so - I'd like to learn how to hear it and appreciate it.

My personal experience left me very disappointed with Buffet's quality (on two different occasions - a couple of decades apart.) If I had ever played a Buffet that gave me some advantage over what I was playing at the time - I would have switched in a heartbeat. Now I play Albert, so I'm not really in the market for that specific Buffet sound - but I'd still like to learn how to appreciate "the sound" if there is one.

;^)>>>
Fuzzy

 
 Re: Logic vs Gut? Picking new Clarinet
Author: dorjepismo 2017
Date:   2017-08-17 21:48

Well, they never worked for me. Beat my head against that wall for way too long. Recently played with a guy who's fanatical about "golden age" R13s, though, and he gets some of the sound. I'd describe it as centered, a little luminous, and it comes at you in sort of an indirect way, filling the space without seeming to have a specific origin point. Maybe a little like listening to an organ in a big cathedral.

Wouldn't want to try the blind listen, though. Plenty of people play Buffets and sound like I used to.

 
 Re: Logic vs Gut? Picking new Clarinet
Author: seabreeze 
Date:   2017-08-18 01:54

The adjectives "centered" and "luminous" do describe the ideal sound that many Buffet advocates are looking for and sometimes find. And you might also add "elegant." Trying many clarinets recently at the ICA, I did not find that mix of qualities on most of the clarinets there (including the R13s) but I did find it in some of the Buffet Prestige R13s (but not Buffet RC Prestiges) and surprisingly in the Selmer Seles Presence!

These qualities are ideal but they are not illusory. They may come as much from the player as from the instrument, but some (few) instruments allow the player to highlight and intensify them.

There are many very fine clarinets that do not have these qualities but have others that may compensate for them or that some players may prefer. The Selmer Signature, for example or the Yamaha CSG models. Rich, lush, covered sounds, dark like chocolate--yes. But centered and luminous and elegant in the best Buffet way--no. One is not "better" than the other; some great players want one thing and others want something else.

I would never bet that players in a blindfold test would reliably distinguish any given Buffets from an assortment of other brands. But you can be sure that they would identify that ideal Buffet sound when they hear it, even if it is coming from another brand. "Yes, that's the sound." They do know what they're looking for but maybe not always exactly where to find it.



Post Edited (2017-08-18 02:12)

 
 Re: Logic vs Gut? Picking new Clarinet
Author: Tom Puwalski 
Date:   2017-08-18 05:43

The sound is IN the player. A clarinet is merely a vehicle for the expression. The two different bore Yamahas that I'm playing on now are capable of all the expression maybe even more expression of sound than I was getting on all of the Buffets the boutique clarinets that I've owned.

I've had the chance to a some of the instruments of some of the famous clarinetists that this list idolized. Not one of those instruments had that persons sound in them. They were merely "tools". When I asked Ansel Adams to talk
about his cameras he said " A healthy skepticism of the tools and material used in making art are necessary to advance one's creativity". When I was a senior in high School and attended a Yosemite work shop, there was at least 5 people out of the 15 people who were in attendance who had gear that made Ansel's look like Pawn shop fodder. Did any of those people take better photos than Ansel? No way. Did they stand around talking about what gear they had instead of picking the brains of a master? Yes.

The day I got to play Iggy Gennussa's Ched on his old R13 I was highly disappointed. He could pick up my stuff and get his sound, he could pick up his stuff and sound the same. His sound wasn't in the gear, it was in him. I learned that I'm not going to get anything out of a clarinet any clarinet or mouthpiece that I didn't program in to it. I also learned that any piece of gear that anybody on line says doesn't work, has some player playing and recording and sounding absolutely marvolous on that same gear.

Tom Puwalski

 
 Re: Logic vs Gut? Picking new Clarinet
Author: Bob Bernardo 
Date:   2017-08-18 06:33

"Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2017-08-18 05:43

The sound is IN the player. A clarinet is merely a vehicle for the expression.
The two different bore Yamahas that I'm playing on now are capable of all
the expression maybe even more expression of sound than I was getting on
all of the Buffets the boutique clarinets that I've owned"

I've heard Tom play. He can pretty much out play everyone on this board, but lets not go there. It doesn't matter.

Like Tom, we both studied with Iggie Gennusa and play double lip and we both have very decent sounds. Lets forget about this too.

But lets look at what we both did the last couple of years. We both tested pretty much every clarinet we could find. Tom did stay pretty much with Buffet's, however I tried everything I could get my hands on. For us, the Yamaha's won. We both can afford anything we want from the Tosca, the Backuns, but for whatever reason the simple, least expensive pro CSVR standard clarinets won out.

No they do not play like Buffet's, Selmer's, or any other horn. Maybe that's why I'm happy with them. They have THAT SOUND I want. I've said it before, the A clarinet is the best A clarinet I've ever played.

From first writing about these horns a lot of people have converted. I've even gone to the plant and picked up some horns for some friends. This is not my goal. My goal is to see other companies get their acts together and give us great horns at respectable pricing. Horns that play great right out of the case.

Sadly the prices did go up, but it's still $1000 less than an R13. Seems like a no brainer to try a Yamaha, if you hate it buy the Buffet.

STEUER REEDS Importer played by Sabine Meyer

NEWLY DESIGNED "Vintage 1940 Cicero" Mouthpieces

Yamaha Artist




 
 Re: Logic vs Gut? Picking new Clarinet
Author: DavidBlumberg 
Date:   2017-08-18 18:13

Not using the real name is way too easy to take a shot in the dark by someone who can't play well.

http://www.MyTempoMusic.com

http://www.skypeclarinetlessons.com/about.html

Sponsored by Backun/D'Addario/BG/Silverstein/ Artist Teacher and Soloist

 
 Re: Logic vs Gut? Picking new Clarinet
Author: echi85 
Date:   2017-08-18 19:35

The sound is in the player in that:

1.) Each player has unique physical characteristics that lead to a slightly different production of sound.

2.) Each player has a tonal identity in their brain that is unique to themselves.

Equipment matters in the second case. I think everyone picks equipment based on how they want to sound, to try to match the sound they have in their heads. However, because of the first case, people find that different equipment works for different people based off of their own physical characteristics and manner of playing. Sure, you can pick up someone else's clarinet and sound like you, but is it the easiest way for you to sound like you? Surely there is a reason why you pick the equipment you use.

I don't think you can say that equipment doesn't matter at all. If I decided to play Oehler clarinets from now on, I don't think I can honestly say that I would sound the same as on a Boehm clarinet even after months of adjustment. The differences between different Boehm models is slight but the idea is still valid.

FWIW, I tried a few top end Yamaha clarinets recently and I did find them to be tonally different than Buffets. The evenness of scale was great but I found them to be more mellow than the Buffets I own. It could have been just the specific instruments I tried. However, I will say that they were setup in great condition.

In all honestly, I have tried a few new R13s in the past few years that were shockingly dull. I tried a few Traditions that were on the other end of the spectrum.

Edit: I should add that I've played Buffet R13s my entire life. I think my Bb clarinet is one of the best I've ever tried. I'm not particularly brand loyal, I play a Selmer bass clarinet. My point was that all makers make instruments that people don't like.



Post Edited (2017-08-18 21:13)

 
 Re: Logic vs Gut? Picking new Clarinet
Author: Wookie001 
Date:   2017-08-18 21:04

echi85 wrote:

> The sound is in the player in that:
>
> 1.) Each player has unique physical characteristics that lead
> to a slightly different production of sound.
>
> 2.) Each player has a tonal identity in their brain that is
> unique to themselves.
>
> Equipment matters in the second case. I think everyone picks
> equipment based on how they want to sound, to try to match the
> sound they have in their heads. However, because of the first
> case, people find that different equipment works for different
> people based off of their own physical characteristics and
> manner of playing. Sure, you can pick up someone else's
> clarinet and sound like you, but is it the easiest way for you
> to sound like you? Surely there is a reason why you pick the
> equipment you use.
>
> I don't think you can say that equipment doesn't matter at all.
> If I decided to play Oehler clarinets from now on, I don't
> think I can honestly say that I would sound the same as on a
> Boehm clarinet even after months of adjustment. The differences
> between different Boehm models is slight but the idea is still
> valid.
>
> FWIW, I tried a few top end Yamaha clarinets recently and I did
> find them to be tonally different than Buffets. The evenness of
> scale was great but I found them to be more mellow than the
> Buffets I own. It could have been just the specific instruments
> I tried. However, I will say that they were setup in great
> condition.
>
> In all honestly, I have tried a few new R13s in the past few
> years that were shockingly dull. I tried a few Traditions that
> were on the other end of the spectrum.


I'll be honest, I haven't tried any R13 myself. I only know that from youtube videos.

but I own a Buffet RC (non prestige) and I get an AWESOME sound out of it (and that's not only my opinion, my clarinet teacher (playing for about 20 years in a symphony orchestra) has confirmed that to me, also a friend of mine who studies clarinet at a music college)

but I agree, it depends of course a lot on the individual sound too. I'd say it's 50/50.

 
 Re: Logic vs Gut? Picking new Clarinet
Author: Tom Puwalski 
Date:   2017-08-18 22:01

<but I own a Buffet RC (non prestige) and I get an AWESOME sound out of it> A name would be great better yet some soundcloud so we can each hear awesomeness
(and that's not only my opinion, my clarinet teacher (playing for about 20 years in a symphony orchestra) Who is your teacher and what orchestra did he or she play with? How good of a friend? A bail you butt out of jail friend?

has confirmed that to me, also a friend of mine who studies clarinet at a music college) Who is the friend?

There is too many levels of anounimity in this post.

Tom Puwalski

 
 Re: Logic vs Gut? Picking new Clarinet
Author: gwie 2017
Date:   2017-08-18 22:22

Wookie001 - 2017-08-16 23:32
> yes, there is a unifying sound constant.

Wookie001 - 2017-08-18 21:04
> I'll be honest, I haven't tried any R13 myself.


...and this to me is the textbook definition of brand bias.

 
 Re: Logic vs Gut? Picking new Clarinet
Author: Wookie001 
Date:   2017-08-18 23:17

you know what? I honestly don't care. I also don't care about the anonymity in my posting. if names matter that much to you, that's your problem.

you don't need to have the same opinion, it's your choice.



Post Edited (2017-08-18 23:19)

 
 Re: Logic vs Gut? Picking new Clarinet
Author: Tom Puwalski 
Date:   2017-08-18 23:34

But you care enough to write and express your opinion why don't you care enough to identify yourself?

I don't know but if you express an opinion I would think you'd want it to matter. Does knowing who you are make it matter more or less?
In your last post you made statements that in my mind were trying to tell my your opinions are informed and that's totally cool. I would just like to know who is informing them.

Now this is just an opinion that I have, but I think a major problem this board has is anonymous posting. You might disagree, and I'm fine with that but I would like to know why. What does one get from anounymous posting?

A few years back, it was a big deal about disclousure, people being artists for companies and recomending products for said companies. I think is beyond that. I think knowing to whome you're talking can only every increase our understanding of things.


Tom Puwalski

 
 Re: Logic vs Gut? Picking new Clarinet
Author: Wookie001 
Date:   2017-08-18 23:53

yeh, maybe advertising for certain companies is a problem then.
In my case, I don't want to make advertising, I simply like the Buffet sound.

Opinions do not matter more to me just because you can tell where they came from.

 
 Re: Logic vs Gut? Picking new Clarinet
Author: nellsonic 
Date:   2017-08-19 01:14

So here´s the thing Wookie. I´m resonably confident at this point that you are a high school student. I say this based on your writing style and a quick glance at the kinds of questions you've asked recently.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about that.

I think it's great that you are here. Plenty of other students are too. Most of them identify themselves as such so that when they share an experience or offer advice people understand what their level of experience is and can take that into account. It's great to see students here asking for input and helping to answer questions when they can. It's so very valuable for all involved when done in that way.

You seem to want your opinions to be considered to be authoritative. It's fair to ask why we should, especially when you are advising someone so emphatically on a big purchase. Tom is a top pro. Look him up. Listen to his playing. You'll learn a lot from it. I know I have and will continue to do so. He's suggested several things that have made me a significantly better teacher. I have a great deal of respect for him and the other top pros here, and it's always reflected in the language that I use when interacting with them.

At the same time I understand that anonymity can sometimes be useful or even necessary. I don't use my real name here, but I don't have any problem talking about where my information comes from or what my experience is if it's relevant or questioned. I teach clarinet full time. I've taught music full time for decades. I have a degree in clarinet performance. I play well enough that I get more requests to play in public than I can accommodate. I'm not a top pro, but I am competent and seasoned. I am still a work in progress. You?



Post Edited (2017-08-19 01:22)

 
 Re: Logic vs Gut? Picking new Clarinet
Author: Wookie001 
Date:   2017-08-19 02:36

No, I'm not a high school student.

I'm studying musicology and play clarinet as a hobby.

I never said I want my opinion to be considered to be authoritative.

The thing is: If I had to choose the clarinet between these two mentioned, I would choose the R13 because in my opinion it sounds better. (and obviously that's the opinion of most professional clarinetists)

I don't know what this discussion is all about, I think it's clear.

 
 Re: Logic vs Gut? Picking new Clarinet
Author: dorjepismo 2017
Date:   2017-08-19 05:36

"But you care enough to write and express your opinion why don't you care enough to identify yourself?"

Hey, Tom, I don't know where this is coming from, but the thing is, except for the players with conspicuous gigs or recordings, we mostly don't know one another, and nobody cares what our names are. I mean one or two people looked me up somewhere in the system and USED MY REAL NAME a few times, but so what? There wasn't anything to do with that afterward. Neither I nor anyone else cared. If Stanley Drucker were on this very board posting as Freddy Kruger, would that make what he said any more or less valuable? If someone says something useful, say it's useful, and if it's garbage, say it's garbage, but how we show up here really should be our own business, unless the management decides otherwise.

 
 Re: Logic vs Gut? Picking new Clarinet
Author: nellsonic 
Date:   2017-08-19 09:18

Wookie001 wrote:

> No, I'm not a high school student.
>
> I'm studying musicology and play clarinet as a hobby.

Thanks for that - now we know a bit. I wouldn't have pegged you as a budding academic from the clues, but there you are. In the absence of knowledge assumptions fill the vacuum. Hopefully if we get back into discussing music rather than equipment at some point you'll have something fun to contribute!


> I don't know what this discussion is all about, I think it's clear.


Yes, it is clear - although several people have tried to explain. It basically comes down to 'consider the source'. Blanket statements beg the question as to who is making them, not necessarily their name and location, but general level of experience and expertise. Thanks for being willing to engage.



Post Edited (2017-08-19 09:20)

 
 Re: Logic vs Gut? Picking new Clarinet
Author: Wookie001 
Date:   2017-08-19 16:24

nellsonic wrote:

> Wookie001 wrote:
>
> > No, I'm not a high school student.
> >
> > I'm studying musicology and play clarinet as a hobby.
>
> Thanks for that - now we know a bit. I wouldn't have pegged you
> as a budding academic from the clues, but there you are. In
> the absence of knowledge assumptions fill the vacuum. Hopefully
> if we get back into discussing music rather than equipment at
> some point you'll have something fun to contribute!
>
>
> > I don't know what this discussion is all about, I think it's
> clear.
>
>
> Yes, it is clear - although several people have tried to
> explain. It basically comes down to 'consider the source'.
> Blanket statements beg the question as to who is making them,
> not necessarily their name and location, but general level of
> experience and expertise. Thanks for being willing to engage.
>

Wow, I've rarely seen so much arrogance and stupidity in one posting. good job!

 
 Re: Logic vs Gut? Picking new Clarinet
Author: Tom Puwalski 
Date:   2017-08-19 17:05

I get it now. If I was going to communicate like you guys are doing, I wouldn't want my name attached to it either.
Anonymity is license to be snarky. This must be a generational thing, I'll be 58 on Monday, I grew up never having the luxury of anonymity in communication. If I went somewhere and sounded like a dick everyone knew it was me, and could respond to me as the situation demanded
I would urge everyone to say stuff "AS IF" they were going to sign their names.

Tom Puwalski

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