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Author: maiohmai
Date: 2016-09-07 02:56
(EDITED)
I appreciate all of those who have taken the time to respond to my post.
At this time, I would like to take my issue offline, and isolate my problem privately. The more I spread my problem, the more I've thought and stressed about it.
Thanks again. I'm not sure how to delete the thread, so if a moderator sees this, I would appreciate if the thread was deleted.
Thank you all again.
Tony
On the road to a non-collapsing embouchure!
Post Edited (2016-09-16 04:50)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-09-07 03:30
maiohmai wrote:
> I will warm up with long tones, usually only lasting 2 minutes
> because I will already have acute airleak out of the corners of
> my mouth. I've recently noticed that my upper lip is unable to
> seal after two minutes of long tones.
I know how much some players value long tones as embouchure builders and conditioners, but if they aren't helping you strengthen anything and are actually contributing to the early breakdown you've described, then my first advice would be to stop doing them.
> I do my
> Klose or Jettel scales and arpeggios. Takes about 10 min, due
> to many pauses with breathing and not being able to make as
> long of phrases gradually down the page (meaning i can do a
> whole scale up and down in one breath, by the end I have to
> breath every measure)
I'm a little confused here. Is running out of breath more quickly somehow part of the same problem or is it a separate breathing issue? Absent any kind of respiratory or cardiac problem, the most likely cause of just running out of air too soon is that you're not taking as much air in as you need for the purpose. Don't try to do quick catch breaths at the beginning of each scale. Stop and take a full breath for each scale and see if it helps.
> Going into my solos I will have to stop
> periodically. My upper lip will no longer seal over my teeth
> and will "flare out". My biting is uncontrollable, and my
> corners will not seal, allowing so much airleak that the
> clarinet isn't audible.
Are you playing single lip? Have you experimented with double lip just to try to position the upper lip and keep it in position more easily?
> I've been told to go see a respiratory specialist and possibly
> a neurologist, but financially that isn't possible at the
> moment.
And yet, if you really want to get to the bottom of these problems and find real solutions, that may be necessary, whatever financial arrangements you need to make. Are you in the U.S.? If so, do you have medical insurance?
> Does anyone have any suggestions on what I should do, who I
> should see, etc? I really would like to find a solution, as I
> really don't want to give up this profession.
I think you know that these problems are caused either by extreme psychosomatic reactions to self-imposed pressure or by some unusual physical problem that only a medical professional can find and help solve. Any suggestions you get here are guesses. You've already almost certainly tried the usual solutions. You need either to calm yourself down in a major way or get your underlying problems diagnosed. A visit to your family GP might lead to an appointment with either an ENT or a neurologist. To simply dismiss the idea as financially impractical at present may be to dismiss the possibility of solving a soluble problem and going on with your musical life. From your description, you can't continue very far as things stand presently.
Karl
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2016-09-07 04:54
This is way over my head. I'm not a teacher, I have no experience, I'm just a solitary voice in a haunted kitchen. I wish I could help - you seem like a good person and your plight is sad.
For what it's worth, watching your video I get the feeling, without really being able to say why, that you're wound pretty tight while you play, and as you play it feels like you're winding tighter. And maybe that's fine, maybe that's how anyone would get the nice sound you do, with a kind of intensity of control.
But I don't get that exact same feeling watching other good clarinetists (and I don't feel that way much when I play either, but don't include me with the good clarinetists.) Usually, good players, though they radiate intensity, make it look as easy as breathing. And maybe I'm not perceiving things correctly with your video either. Though, given the struggle you've endured with this, I can only imagine you might try very hard at all times to do things "right" and NOT cause the problem.
This next isn't a suggestion, it's a dumb idea I'm a little ashamed to write. Have you ever tried to play drunk? I don't recommend it, since I'm well aware of problems associated with alcohol use. My philosophy is to try to face life "au natural", even if I myself failed to follow that on a couple little occasions that lasted years. So, using chemicals to overcome any kind of control or over-control problem is, in my opinion, not good. But testing *can* provide data.
Again, I feel unable to offer anything meaningful. Other responders are right - if you can connect with the right medical expert, it will probably be your best bet. There must be some that specialize in musicians - singers, wind players, etc.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-09-07 06:23
I watched your video just now. I don't know that I can see anything in your embouchure approach that would explain the problem you're having holding things together. It just sounds like fatigue, but after much too short a time.
But, I hear something in your breathing that intrigues me. It may be a recording issue, but there are two things I notice. One, there is a noise when you take a breath that sounds like the airway is obstructed. It's a lower pitched sound than what I hear when I or someone I'm listening to takes a quick breath. Second, although I can't see your lower abdomen in the camera shot, I can see your chest area, and I see no movement when you inhale. A really deep, full breath doesn't start at the chest, but at some point the chest normally moves once the lower part of the lungs has filled. Does your inhalation feel obstructed or tight? Do you have any history, for example, of asthma or do you have tonsils that are enlarged? A doctor would need to evaluate this and diagnose a cause. It's video and not studio recorded sound, so there may not really be any problem in your breathing at all, but some of your fatigue and your progressively shorter phrase length might be a result of not getting enough air into your lungs when you breathe.
To play that Rachmaninoff solo without falling over in your chair by its end, you need to get full breaths, but you also have to plan your breathing so that you get rid of most of the air before you breathe again. If you only top off and never fully empty, you end up with lungs full of mostly stale, de-oxiginated air, which can affect every muscle in your body, including your facial muscles.
You know better than I if you feel any difficulty when you try to take a quick, deep breath. Poor air intake wouldn't explain why you need until the next day to recover - a few relaxed breaths after you stop to rest should get you back to normal. I still think you should talk this over with whatever doctor you normally see when you're sick and follow whatever advice he or she gives you.
Karl
Post Edited (2016-09-07 07:01)
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Author: JHowell
Date: 2016-09-07 08:21
Hi, Tony,
You with Michael or Tommy? I respect them both and wouldn't want to step in front of either. So, I'm just asking. How is your overall fitness? Can you run a mile? Are you a cyclist, or a swimmer? I had a student once who had a similar early embouchure weakness. He was slight like you, but not athletic, and had general endurance issues. Your embouchure is a muscle, and if it is fatiguing prematurely there are only so many possibilities. You may be over stressing it with a positive feedback loop: you are worried about fatigue, you expect an early failure, which creates tension, so your expectations are realized. This is fixable.
You may indeed have some sort of focal dystonia. I've had colleagues with varieties of this. I can't offer specific advice, but they recovered.
If you are fairly athletic, if you do not tire easily, don't need naps all the time, can play tennis or run a couple of miles, you probably don't have a metabolic disorder. My student whose embouchure failed had such comprehensive fatigue issues that it was no wonder his embouchure failed. So, while the CMU health center may not have a neurologist on call, you might be able to find out if there is anything that would prevent you from becoming an endurance athlete. If you check out as healthy, try improving your fitness in general and see if there is any correlation.
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Author: jonok
Date: 2016-09-07 09:48
Nothing to lose ... try playing with a MUCH softer reed (and ignore loss of tone and squeaks) ... see what happens. If you can then play for a long time, despite sounding like a kazoo, your reed is too strong for the mouthpiece.
-------------------
aspiring fanatic
Post Edited (2016-09-07 09:49)
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Author: djschwartz ★2017
Date: 2016-09-07 11:37
So sorry you are having this ongoing difficulty. If you are not having any instrument/mouthpiece/reed issues, to come to an understanding and possible solution(s) for your dilemma, the short answer is (as others have suggested) to get a medical evaluation.
The devil is in the details. I agree with the observations about your breathing pattern. I would start with your personal doc or the CMU health services for a general exam to identify or eliminate any general health problems. A simple spirometry (blowing into a tube) can screen for asthma, airway obstruction, and lung volumes/flow rates. Assuming all is okay thus far, what then? Yes, there are docs who deal with the specific needs of musicians; most often they are ENT (ear, nose, throat) specialists. There is possibly one in private practice in Pittsburgh or at the U of Pittsburgh School of Medicine. Referral to a specialist should be discussed with your health care provider.
Do you have embouchure or focal dystonia? I have no idea based upon the available info. Your video shows a nice tone without the expected tremors or muscle motions of a dystonic movement disorder. A neurologist would be able to evaluate this as well as several other possibilities for muscle weakness. Stress/tension/anxiety can aggravate movement disorders, asthma, fatigue, etc. Philip, FWIW, alcohol can help some movement disorders (I also am not suggesting it as therapy, but a glass of wine does help my lifelong essential tremor.).
Realizing your concerns about the finances and knowing nothing about your insurance or lack thereof, I would offer the following. As a CMU student, do you have health care coverage at CMU? If so, you might be able to get your care covered; you need to talk with them. If not, the medical school may have faculty research interests or clinics which might help with your care. If you want this as your chosen profession, you will need to solve this. Best of luck in finding an answer to what I know is a frustrating problem.
David
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2016-09-07 17:36
Jonathan mentioned a softer reed, and I think that's a great place to start. You see all sorts of recommendations: if you use model x mouthpiece, use a hard reed, but if you use model y, use a soft one. I've learned to partially disregard this advice and use the reed that works best for me.
If a softer reed doesn't solve your problem, the issue might be your mouthpiece. You said it's less resistant. Does it have a small tip opening with a long facing? For a few years, I used that type of mouthpiece, a Vandoren M15 with Rico Reserve 3 or 3 1/2 reeds. Trying it out in the music store, it was wonderful. I thought I had found the perfect mouthpiece, but began to run into problems similar to yours. Softer reeds helped a little, but didn't really solve the problem. The solution was softer reeds and a slightly more open mouthpiece with a slightly shorter facing.
Last year, I was in the market for a new sax mouthpiece. I had it narrowed down to two excellent and very responsive choices, a Fobes (can't remember which one) and a Vandoren AL3. I put both through a real test, playing a long etude on each one. After getting through half a page, I just couldn't go any farther with the Fobes. On the Vandoren, playing through a page or two was no problem, and you can probably figure out which one I bought.
It might be worth contacting Greg Smith and explaining your problem. He might be able to make some slight adjustments. I'm not going to recommend any particular mouthpiece, but if you decide to buy a new one, try a number of different tip opening/facing combinations. That might just be your solution.
Post Edited (2016-09-07 17:38)
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2016-09-07 18:47
Dear Tony,
If you do have focal dystonia, the last thing you want is to increase practice time or work through it. In fact, it will likely make things worse and could ultimately end your career.
Get medical help, you say you can't afford it, but can you afford not to be able to play again? Go to CMU health services, start a fundraising campaign to pay your bills if you must, but get this addressed by qualified medical professionals.
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: maiohmai
Date: 2016-09-07 23:53
N/A
On the road to a non-collapsing embouchure!
Post Edited (2016-09-16 04:50)
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2016-09-08 01:02
One thing I noticed during the first pass through the Rachmaninov is that your throat while blowing seemed to be more "open" or "distended." While blowing, are you focussing your air using an "eeee" tongue position?
When you inhale, on the opposite side of things, think "oh" so that you get a nice deep relaxed breath in. If you've not researched/heard about/studied with Keith Underwood (he's a flutist who's known for teaching breathing to a ton of wind players and singers), check him out. The breathing bag is an "apparatus" that I've found helpful, as well as the "breath builder" apparatus (with which you can alter the resistance and make sure you're using your torso muscles to blow!).
Also during the first pass through the Rach, it seemed like your chin wasn't quite "pointed" or "flat" even before your embouchure collapsed. See Larry Guy's book on embouchure training.
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Author: JHowell
Date: 2016-09-08 01:31
Interesting. I think the fatigue issues are probably more likely to get attention at a student health center than "I can't play clarinet as long as I want." If you can generate lots of energy with your breath support and airstream focus, your embouchure doesn't have that much work to do. It seals, it cushions, it adjusts minutely. If the breath support and focus lack energy, your embouchure is forced to constrict and focus the insufficient energy at the reed. Which is tiring. None of us are doctors, but it sounds like the clarinet issue is peripheral to a more general state of health. If you find what is keeping you from having the ability to exercise and the energy to stay awake all day, the clarinet stuff will probably take care of itself.
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Author: djschwartz ★2017
Date: 2016-09-08 04:55
Jack wrote:
> None of us are doctors, but it sounds like the clarinet issue
> is peripheral to a more general state of health.
Actually...I'm a retired physician with a life-long passion for music who has come back to the clarinet. I have learned much and have much to learn from all of you. And finally, I have time to play (and read the BB).
Tony, You have received many excellent suggestions and insights above. Some of the info you have added may be very important to addressing the non-clarinet issues. I cannot offer you any specific medical advice, but hopefully, may be able to give you some help as to where to look. I think this would be more appropriately done offline. Please feel free to email me.
David
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2016-09-08 20:08
As far as your health insurance is concerned, I would suggest, as a starting point, that you contact your insurer's consumer service department. There is probably a phone number on your card. Explain your issue. If they can't point you to covered treatment in Pittsburgh, it might warrant a trip home (and/or a change in health care plan so you have coverage where you live).
Now, this is somewhat from left-field but, if you have seen doctors and they have not been able to find any physical issue, it occurs to me that hypnosis might be able to help you determine whether your problem is physical or psychological. Have you considered trying that?
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: Dori
Date: 2016-09-08 22:38
Tony, I also urge you to contact your insurance company for directions to obtain care. You say you take impromptu naps yet still feel tired. What you are describing is Sleep Apnea. I know a young man about your age who had the same symptoms. He needed his tonsils removed to solve the problem. There are also other ways to treat this condition. As a Mom, I strongly urge you to get yourself checked medically. You should not have to suffer with weakness and fatigue.
Dori aka Mom
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2016-09-09 08:45
Hi Tony,
Because I have embouchure dystonia, I became keenly interested in your posting rather quickly. First, and this is strictly only my opinion, you do not appear to have embouchure dystonia. I paid particular attention to the part before you began playing, when you were simply speaking. I noticed that the right side of your mouth is slightly more expressive than the left. The right side seemed to move more easily, appeared to be more flexible, and I sensed that your left side was a bit stiffer. It appears to me that your left side is ever so slightly more developed than your right side. (This could be the beginning of the development of embouchure dystonia as that particular side will be stiffer and less expressive during speech. However, I see no signs of "muscular over development" nor do I see any vertical lines in your upper lip which is another sign of dystonia self contracting muscles.)
From what I've learned, dystonia develops when the playing period is normally too long without sufficient "rest periods". The embouchure is made up of very fine or delicate muscles which, indeed, require adequate care.
Since I could only see the right side of your embouchure, I have no idea what your left side looks like.
As noted above, it appears that you become quite fatigued rather quickly. I second the suggestion of going to a softer reed. If your air leakage and fatigue lessen to a great degree, that would be very enlightening.
If I were you, before going to see a expensive medical specialist, I would suggest investing far less money is seeing another "prominent" teacher or two. Compare their analysis as to what they think.
Disclaimer: I am not a professional and my opinions and advice should be taken with that in mind.
Good luck!
Dan
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Author: MikeWilson
Date: 2016-09-11 00:02
Hi Tony
I've watched your video a couple of times and I've noticed that as you play your upper eyelids slowly droop a little - this starts before your embouchure starts leaking and slowly gets more noticeable. This suggestion may be completely wrong but it just raises the possibility in my mind (I'm an ex medic) that you may have mild symptoms of myaesthenia gravis.
For more info on this look on the web at such as :
https://www.myaware.org/general-myasthenia
I suggest that you get medically checked out with regard to this amongst other things, including hypothyroidism which you mentioned -- I think your embouchure fatigue may be a symptom of something else.
Best wishes
Mike
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2016-09-12 19:05
Don't want to repeat others' very good advice. I can get that way by playing on a mouthpiece that's resistant and has a wider tip opening and/or longer facing than I normally play on, with a fairly hard reed (which you sometimes need in order not to honk). Sounds like there's enough teeth pressure to affect the sound, which is consistent with your description of the process. We all need a setup we can play on without relying too much on the jaw, and that means different things for different folks. The other thing is, I can't play with the black patches, because they're too thick for me and I leak air badly with them, so I can't phrase long enough. The clear thin patches are fine for me, though. Lots and lots of people don't have that problem, but I sure do. Weird, but I can replicate it at will, and that's definitely what's going on. So, you might try switching to the thin clear patches.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-09-12 19:15
The (D'Addario?/Rico?) Reserve black rubber patches are a good compromise between the Runyon rubber ones, which are quite thick, and the thin clear plastic ones (Vandoren? Leblanc?) that for me are too hard to provide any cushioning - they do protect the mouthpiece but not much more.
Karl
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Author: maiohmai
Date: 2016-09-14 21:15
N/A
On the road to a non-collapsing embouchure!
Post Edited (2016-09-16 04:51)
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Author: Josje
Date: 2016-09-14 22:32
I wasn't going to interfere, because I hardly know anything about playing clarinet. I have only been playing for half a year myself.
But since someone else suggested Myastenia gravis and youre going to the doctor anyway please look into that. I have a similar disease and immediately thought about that when I saw your video, I thought it was my obsesion but since someone else noted as well and youre also suffering from thyroid disease I think it's worth looking into (it's treatable with medications).
Myasthenia gravis is an auto-immune disease like Hashimoto, and auto immune diseases have a tendency to come with more then one. If your thyroid problem is because you were born without a thyroid then this relation doesnt exist of course.
If you look for 'myasthenia gravis' on youtube you will find several videos of severly affected people, I have never suffered from weakness in my facial muscles to that extend, not even close. But the videos where what made me realise that I had it, because what happens is so very strange. If you think you recognise something please let me know, then I will try to give you some tips, because it is a rare disease, and most doctors never heard of it. (the rareness of course also makes the chance that this you problem quite small, but al least look into it, because it is a treatable problem)
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Author: KenJarczyk
Date: 2016-09-14 22:32
Tony,
I feel for you! Reading the comments above, and viewing your video several times, I've noticed the eyelid droop, as mentioned. Also, as mentioned, primarily seeing only your right side, hard to see the left! You do seem to tighten your facial muscles up a bit - does your left cheek have the same " dimple" form when you play?
With the eyelid droop, do you also sense weakness in your hands/arms? Is there any family history of Bell's Palsey? Do follow the advice of seeking specialist medical advice.
Have you shared your video with Greg Smith? You really should. He's seen it all, playing world-wide, and supplying mouthpieces to many major league players. He may help on the mouthpiece end, and probably would suggest dropping the 3-1/2+ reeds, at least down to the 3-1/2. (you might want to give the Rue Lepic 56 reeds a shot, too, less resistant) If you "Facebook" -seek out Anton Weinberg, friend him, and send him your video as well. Professor Weinberg and Greg Smith probably know medical people that specialize in Clarinet People problems!
What difficulty arises when you push the bell out more, less close to the body? The resistance should lower with that playing position.
Ken Jarczyk
Woodwinds Specialist
Eb, C, Bb, A & Bass Clarinets
Soprano, Alto, Tenor & Baritone Saxophones
Flute, Alto Flute, Piccolo
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Author: Josje
Date: 2016-09-14 22:45
I have just been looking at your eye lids in the second video, definitly take at least a look into it. You can also make a video of yourself, and look upwards for 1-2 minutes and then look forward again. If youre eyelids drop significantly lower after the looking up part, then show the video to your doctor.
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