 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: SarahC
Date: 2016-07-15 15:51
Hi Everyone,
I am not teaching yet, as i have just done grade 8, and am researching at the moment, but thinking through 'what ifs'.
Now, all my previous instruments have been concert pitch. So I have taught my students from day one to sing all the note names at concert pitch. This has helped them in learning intervals etc on their instrument.
However, if a student is learning a Bb instrument.. and i teach them to sing C at pitch.. then it isn't going to help them in playing something by ear, because the sound coming out of their instrument isn't a concert C.
However... if I teach them to sing a transposing C, then it won't really be C. And therefore later on if they are doing aural work (for instance aural tests in an exam), they wouldn't be able to hear a chord and say "that is a C major chord with an E on the bass" for instance.. because they won't recognise it as a C...
My son will hear me practise and say "you are thinking you are playing C.. but actually the sound i am hearing is Bb".. but he has been playing for many years. and knows his concert pitch really well. As a new student starting out on a transposing instrument such as clarinet, wouldn't have this luxury of experience behind him/her.
Can i have some thoughts on this dilemma please from the wise and wonderful members here?
Thanks so much.
Sarah
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-07-15 17:12
Speaking of "perfect pitch," it sounds like you and your son have it.
Speaking as one of the 90 percenters that don't, I'd say it's MUCH better to have them sing the printed pitch (C=Bb). They won't know that it's not "C" tomorrow and more than likely even five minutes later. We (the 90 percenters) can give a good run at it once you give us a pitch but it doesn't "stick" like it does for you.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: SarahC
Date: 2016-07-15 17:26
Paul... all my students have it.. and all my children! (well.. all my students who i start teaching before the age of 6... which currently is all of them). It is a form of memory, and needs to be trained very young, otherwise you don't get it.
And it comes in very handy. that being said.. i find myself much preferring to play on a C clarinet for this reason.
So... if i constantly sing at written pitch.. then will developing a perfect pitch that is a tone flat, cause later problems? or should i alternate what pitch i sing at constantly, so that perfect pitch never has a chance to develop?
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2016-07-15 19:27
You're assuming that everyone is born with the ability to learn"absolute" or "perfect" pitch, to accurately identify isolated pitches by ear. You may have "perfect pitch" and, maybe, so does your son. But in my experience, bolstered by several discussions we've had here, most people, even well trained musicians, handle pitch identification relatively ("relative pitch") - hearing and producing the intervals from one note to the other.
In the process of reading by relative pitch, it isn't important what the actual "concert" pitch of a note is, only the note's interval relationship to the notes surrounding it. I personally have no difficulty with calling a note by a letter name based on its notation regardless of its actual sounding pitch. It doesn't confuse me or cause any kind of dissonance between what I see and what I hear.
I do have an oboist friend who played clarinet for a short while as a teenager. She has "perfect pitch." She gave up on clarinet because she couldn't deal with the conflict you've described.
I think it's an issue for a very small number of people, and as a teacher you needn't worry about teaching clarinet notes by their written names unless a problem comes up. In nearly 40 years of teaching, I've never had a student who complained of hearing an A when playing B on a clarinet.
Karl
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2016-07-15 20:17
Having just read your reply to Paul, I am amazed at what you've told us. Perhaps it has to do with starting students at so young an age. If you're dealing with a student who complains that he is uncomfortable with this, I don't see any other solutions but either to treat the clarinet notation as written in a moveable C clef or counsel the child to study a different (concert pitch) instrument. It isn't just a matter of a whole step's difference. Clarinet parts are written for A, Eb and more rarely D and F instruments in addition to the C clarinet you prefer. Maybe substituting a C clef with C4 at an appropriate place on the staff would solve the the problem.
In any case, if you're dealing with older children (8 yo or older), my experience is that, except for rare exceptions, your students won't have this problem.
Karl
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2016-07-16 01:35
Aren't most singers taught to sing initially using Tonic sol-fa notation which means that every interval is learnt as relative pitch and the tonic can be set on any note - the ultimate transposing instrument.
Would seem perfect for the clarinets which can be pitched in Ab, Eb, D, C, Bb, A, F (have I left any out?).
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2016-07-16 02:04
Norman Smale wrote:
> Aren't most singers taught to sing initially using Tonic sol-fa
> notation which means that every interval is learnt as relative
> pitch and the tonic can be set on any note - the ultimate
> transposing instrument.
It's actually an issue I've never fully understood. At the Curtis Institute in Philadelphia, students of which I have been steadily exposed to over the years, they are taught with a "fixed Do" solfege system - Do is always C and chromatics are not identified by different syllables the way they are in the "moveable Do" system (which is more what you're describing) I was trained in.
I don't know that those Curtis students develop perfect pitch from the approach - in fact I'm quite sure they don't. The names just substitute for the letter names I learned as a kid.
Back to Sarah, whose young students so universally learn to sing on correct pitch, I'm curious to know what pitch standard you use. Are your students uncomfortable when exposed to instruments tuned to higher or lower pitch standards? What is their reaction when they have to sing with a piano that's tuned to A=445 or 435? I don't ask this to be confrontational. It's the aspect of perfect pitch that has most baffled me ever since I've known some people have it.
Karl
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Author: SarahC
Date: 2016-07-16 02:12
Re singers - there are mixed opinions on the issue of solfeggi. i.e. moveable doh or fixed do.
i personally believe all students are capable of learning perfect pitch, if they start young enough. For students who start at 8 etc, i have always sung at concert pitch.. and they get close to perfect, but not exactly. (which is my situation personally). I didn't initially set out to teach perfect pitch, i set out to make sure all students understood that a note on the stave represented a pitch, not just a letter name. perfect pitch was the side effect.
So in order to NOT develop perfect pitch, do you then alternate between singing at pitch and singing at transposing pitch, or do you sing at composing pitch, but constantly tell the student we call this not "c" but the sound produced is actually "x"
So when starting beginners, do you constantly remind them what the 'concert' pitch name is for the note they are playing? or just use the written names and address that later?
(PS if you haven't noticed, I am a perfectionist. I would hate to get a clarinet student in the future, and not have already decided exactly how to tackle this issue!)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-07-16 02:14
I think it's better to be pitch perfect with Concert Pitch notes as opposed to Bb pitch notes, simply for the fact there's no questioning what the real note being played is and it's a simple case of applying that to a transposing instrument.
If for instance there's a wrong or questionable note in a part they can ask the conductor or accompanist to check what notes they have in the original score and then put it right (by applying the correct transposition).
If they learn the pitches of all notes sounding in Bb (all a tone lower than Concert Pitch), then that will throw a massive spanner in the works if they play another instrument pitched in another key besides Bb of which there are many.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: SarahC
Date: 2016-07-16 02:29
Thanks chris. What you are saying is my initial thought.... but... In that case.. how do you approach the fact with a student that C sounds like "x" but when we play it no longer sounds like that? without confusing them, or having them transposing in their head without thinking. therefore playing a piece they heard in 5 sharps instead of the written key (for instance!)
(I point to an example of my 4 year old son, who was playing a teleran fantasie in G minor on the recorder..... I came in and asked him why on earth did he start the song on F#... he pointed out that is what the CD does, and at that point, i realised the CD was at 415)
kdk, the issue you raise isn't one i have come across. In Australia, the only 2 pitches i have come across are 440 and 415. and only my own sons have dealt with the 415 issue and come to the other side. Although numerous of my students have complained to me that their school teacher or orchestra doesn't all play in tune. I haven't been present to see how they dealt with that.
The only thing i have had happen, is students who bought guitar shaped objects from aldi. they would go out of tune within 5 minutes... and within a few hours of mucking around on them, would have damaged their perfect pitch. it took months to get it back.
And what happens when they have memorised the pitch of the pieces (from listening to a recording of what they are going to learn) and then come to the music, and the written notes don't match the pitches they have been hearing?
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Author: SarahC
Date: 2016-07-16 02:29
PS, thanks everyone for taking the time to share their opinions and time with me on this issue that is doing my head in!
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Author: SarahC
Date: 2016-07-16 02:37
Of course.. this issue would be solved if all parents were willing to invest in C instruments initially! then get the transposing types later!
Except for the cost.. i can see some real benefits to this
they can always jam with their concert pitch friends.. right from the start
if they quit at grade 4 level.. it is no hindrance to continuing to jam with friends, and not having learnt sight transposition yet!
they can learn at concert pitch, before they learn what transposition means, and how to do it. (actually, they can learn that in correspondence with learning transposition in their theory books!)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-07-16 03:11
I know a singer and pianist who took up clarinet very late in life and she initially had problems relating to what she was hearing compared to what was written. Whenever she's sung vocal music that was being played at 415Hz, she had to transpose and rewrite the written music down a semitone so she can pitch it in order to sing it. So sometimes having perfect pitch can be a handicap whereas having relative pitch can be a more malleable or adaptable thing.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2016-07-16 07:20
Chris P wrote:
> If for instance there's a wrong or questionable note in a part
> they can ask the conductor or accompanist to check what notes
> they have in the original score and then put it right (by
> applying the correct transposition).
>
That's actually kinda funny. I've learned simply to ask "What are my notes in measure x?" Then when I get the answer I can tell if the conductor is answering with concert pitches or written ones. Nine times out of ten, if I ask a conductor about a specific note, no matter which way I name it, we spend time back and forth deciding whether we're talking about concert or written pitch.
Or, even easier, I wait until the next chance I have to look at the score and find the answer for myself.
Karl
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2016-07-16 17:43
As far as students with perfect pitch, I've had 2-3 over my 18 years of teaching. These kids have come to me at between 10-14 years of age, and have found their way to perfect pitch through innate ability and piano lessons or other musical experiences. They've handled the Bb transpositions differently, depending on other things they've got to handle.
Universally with these students I tell them to think of the clarinet notes/staff as a sort of tablature which shows them the FINGERING of the note they'll need. It's the opposite of what Sarah, the original poster, tries to do with her young students, and these kids are always older than the ones she's asking about.
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Author: SarahC
Date: 2016-07-17 02:28
katrina.. that is a great way of explaining it! That is helpful too. I am wondering if it is just not possible to start young on a transposing instrument..
Just to point out.. that i was ten years into teaching before i realised that i had developed perfect pitch in all my students. I am thinking it is part of the suzuki listening to recordings daily, that the body develops that memory.
Saying that.. i notice there is a Suzuki Trumpet thing happening.. and I'm wondering if they use C trumpets or not (they use pocket trumpets.. ) and then how they deal with the kids developing perfect pitch. There doesn't seem to be any English speaking Suzuki trumpet teachers out there I could ask.
I have heard some people say that they had 'perfect pitch' but in Bb... which is something i think is of little use.. particularly if you are changing instruments.. but aurally that is a hindrance not a help. The only time it is of use is when you are trying to figure out a melody by ear on your instrument.. it loses the other benefits of such a skill.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2016-07-17 03:19
I think I have "Clarinet Pitch," meaning that I whatever note is being played on the clarinet I know what it is, up to about that super high G. I can come close after the high G but I can't hear if it's maybe an A# or a B, and the C of course. Those few notes can be confusing, with the C, Bb, and A clarinets, but I 50/50, compared to about 99.9 percent with all of the other notes on the horns. On an Eb clarient I'm OK, but not near the level as with the the other horns, 100 percent to the high F, after that about 0 percent! My ears kind of crap out. So I have clarinet pitch! Is there such a thing? lol Oh, the bass clarinet isn't too bad, I would say 85 percent or higher. Low notes on the basset horn are troubling, a guessing game. The alto clarinet is OK. The contabass clarinet, I played it one time! No I couldn't tell the difference from a sub low E to a sub G! What a fun instrument!
I'm getting sidetracked here, but a really fun story to share about the contra bass. It's huge as expected. It loops all over the place for those that haven't seen one and yes you have to read bass clef. This is pretty normal for any bass clarinetist to have to do. The guy lives in San Francisco and has a clarinet choir. He has a photo of himself in a 2 seat sports car like an Alfa Romeo with him driving and the horn is in the passenger seat! This huge 8 foot silver thing! It's just too funny. I'll try to find it. I met him while working at Rico. I think he stopped by to take a tour of the place. It's like playing the bari sax, requires a good bit of wind, does the embouchure count? Not sure, I didn't play it long enough! What fun! It was a LeBlanc if memory serves me correctly.
From going to really good music schools and sitting in some really good symphonies I often wondered how these gifted people with perfect pitch can stand to hear out of pitch notes!
OK his name is Mark, I'll try to find some photos.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mh2eLnPcUq8
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2016-07-17 03:30)
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2016-07-17 05:00
I have "clarinet pitch" as well. I'm pretty sure I'm identifying the notes more by timbre than by pitch. I certainly don't have perfect pitch and while my relative pitch has come a long way over the years, it is still well below average compared to my other musical abilities.
I did see a study not too long ago that indicated that perfect pitch occurred at a much higher rate among native speakers of many Asian languages. It was thought that this was likely due to those languages being so much more pitch dependent that European languages. The same syllables inflected in two slightly different ways can sometimes mean vastly different things.
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2016-07-17 06:20
I have perfect pitch, which I discovered when I was still playing violin, so I learned it in concert pitch. I think about clarinet playing sort of the way Katrina put it; when I read clarinet music, I think of the written pitch as the "fingered" pitch and I'm simultaneously aware of the "real" concert pitch. I can toggle between thinking of things in different clarinet pitches and concert pitch with relative ease. Concert E, Bb clarinet F#, A clarinet G, Eb clarinet C# are all sort of equivalent in my mind.
I can't remember the real name of it, but "perfect timbre" is a known phenomenon.
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Author: SarahC
Date: 2016-07-17 10:40
nellsonic..
I have heard that before too.. not exactly like that. but that all people are born with the ability for perfect pitch, and that allows people to master tonal languages.
However, i also wonder about higher rates of perfect pitch in asia due to the fact that parents pick ONE activity for children, and go gungho at it... so if music is the activity.. they start preparing at birth, so they are basically learning perfect pitch the same way the young students i get are.
After saying that, as the divide between rich and poor stretches in china, the rich kids are being brought up in much more 'western' ways.. western diets, western levels of activities.
but if you ever wonder at those wonder children at the olympics? Those kids are chosen at a young age, and sent to a school where all they do is sport..... it is therefore no surprise that they excel at it.
My dilemma still exists... when initially teaching the notes to a child.. do i sing at the pitch of the clarinet or at concert. And if i was to get them to listen to a CD of the repertoire, do i place that at their played pitch, or at concert?
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Author: JonTheReeds
Date: 2016-07-17 21:21
SarahC, you sound a good person to ask: do you tune chords when you are playing in a wind ensemble, if you have perfect pitch? Or do you just play the same pitch as a piano? I played violin when i was younger and pianos have always sounded slightly out of tune to me, not in a bad way, but not as pure as, say, a good string quartet
--------------------------------------
The older I get, the better I was
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Author: SarahC
Date: 2016-07-18 00:35
That is an excellent question! I am not sure what my children do, but then they have grown up with violin, as i play that as well.
It did take me a long time on violin to get used to just intonation as opposed to equal intonation, due to piano being my first instrument. But after doing lots of double stop practise that got that problem out of my system.
when i have played in wind groups the conductors have tuned chords, when i play duets etc, i just adjust intonation as i play to make every chord sound beautiful, if that makes sense. I have got very quick at dong this over my life. partly because i have often played with amateurs whose intonation was poor, so i just kept in tune with them.
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