 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2015-12-12 04:43
That's a nice sound, but if that is $1,200 better than he sounded before, how did he get where he is? I would like to hear some side by side comparisons.
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Author: Klose ★2017
Date: 2015-12-12 05:42
Silverstein also claimed Sabine Meyer is now a user of its Cryo 4 ligature. They are really good at marketing.
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2015-12-12 10:05
I can't even imagine how many OTHER things I could get that would benefit my playing experience versus a 1,200 ligature. Is it really 1060 dollars better than the base model?
I understand having a multi-tiered market, where we have "beginner" marketed products, "intermediate", "advanced". . But when did we go into the "connoisseur" bracket with ligatures?
I would like to see research by Silverstein to demonstrate a clear improvement not only with their ligatures compared to others, but from each tier of their models to the next.
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Author: GLHopkins
Date: 2015-12-12 11:38
That's some mighty expensive snake oil.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-12-12 14:03
I don't know if too many of you have noticed but the entire section of the Berlin Philharmonic (in several different recent appearances) have been using the Silverstein. Now, there could be several reasons for this. The design (the somewhat flexible "cabling" paired with the single protruding "saw horse" gizm at the top), I believe, makes it a bit easier to move OVER the schnurand found at the top of many German mouthpieces (that raised bump at the top meant to give added hold for string). In addition, there does seem to be greater fascination amongst German players for metal ligatures over cord these days. The Silverstein (as I note on the other recent thread on this Board) is, in terms of sound, the best example of a "metal ligature."
Lastly (and harder to prove, but likely), Silverstein gave her one and she uses it for all the above reasons.
Oh wait!!!! I want to take on the 'Connoisseur' question.
I'm going to say it was ........are you ready for this?............ the introduction of the Rovner. I know it was never super expensive, but until the Rovner we just had some variations of "standard" ligatures (ok there were the Gigliotti and the Luyben but those where outliers. They were a different material but not necessarily marketed or perceived as 'different'). The Rovner gave is single screw, inverted ligature that DID make a difference to response and sound.
It paved the way for everyone else!
...............Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2015-12-12 14:11)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2015-12-12 14:19
The specs say "Diamond Decoration". Isn't that the reason for the high price?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-12-12 15:47
And how much better is it compared to a simple piece of string?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: knotty
Date: 2015-12-12 18:06
clarnibass beat me to it, I was going to ask, how much does it cost without the diamond...
Oh and can it be gotten with a ruby or emerald?
~ Musical Progress: None ~
Post Edited (2015-12-12 18:08)
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Author: Mirko996
Date: 2015-12-12 21:11
Is the same who use Corrado Giuffredi... To be onest, is very excesive for a professional ligature... there're more professional ligature more cheap than it...
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-12-12 21:33
My opinions. I don't want to be a "Gloomy Gus," but
* If your ligature passes Tom's https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7TwVEI5r6A most basic tests, and most do, you are fine, period.
* 99.9% of us, myself included, and I've been doing this for 40+ years, are not at the Bob Spring level of play https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8Z1y7E7_04 that the difference in play we perceive, or the anecdotal evidence of improvement in our play we get from listeners, all based on a changed ligature, is supported by science. If that praise build's your confidence and you play better--you are tricking yourself: not the way to advance play.
* The late great pedagogue Kal Opperman considered time your most precious asset regarding clarinet play. I'll add "money" to that. Use both on etude books. Use Bob's fingers and precision metronomic play as your guide.
* If fairness, I play a name brand ligature. I only do so because it features double threads which torque twice as fast: to get on and off something that does matter: the reed.
* Only a discussion of cork grease could have less bearing (pun) on play.
* What insight on ligatures could we have if Stanley Drucker played the same no name one for his career? Mr. Drucker was not afraid to try new things. I don't know if anyone has more (unused) mouthpieces, as he continues to play his Landelais.
* Yes, I tried a Silverstein. It plays like a $2.50 competent metal ligature.
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2015-12-12 22:05
Paul,
By the conissouer group of ligatures, I meant having a market of expensive aftermarket ligatures. The Rovner was innovative, but was never meant to fall into that camp.
I second and follow Tom's advice on ligatures. . KISS method.
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Author: alanporter
Date: 2015-12-12 22:11
I wonder if it will make my Bundy sound better ?
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2015-12-12 22:29
This may actually apply here. I have an ancestor who was a judge in Connecticut. From him (through about four generations) I inherited an item which was, unfortunately, lost in our recent fire. That was an official governmental license to sell "snake root" on the public square in Putnam, Connecticut. I had had it framed just in case I needed to use it.
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Author: Ebclarinet1
Date: 2015-12-12 22:32
Well I didn't buy the $1200 version but I bought the gold plated ones for my Eefer and bass. I have played Rovner, BG and VanDoren Optimum on all of my clarinets and up to these purchases I was quite happy with the Van Doren Optimum on my high clarinets and BG on my low ones. Not anymore.
The Silverstein gives a very resonant sound and much better throat tones on both Eefer and bass. The bass especially responded in terms of a bigger sound and more reed-friendly. I play on Buffet Prestige horns and with Greg Smith on Eefer and Fobes or Grabner on bass.
If you have a chance to do a blind test, definitely give them a whirl. It made a big difference in my sound and maybe it will for you too.
Eefer guy
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2015-12-13 02:15
just look at Gould's chair and ask yourself, how much is mind, and how much is matter?
--
Ben
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Author: Klose ★2017
Date: 2015-12-13 03:30
Hi Paul,
It is certain that NOT the entire section of Berlin Phil are using Silverstein. Andreas Ottensamer and Manfred Preis only use mental while Alexander Bader still mostly uses string. But yes, Wenzel Fuchs, Walter Seyfarth and other academy students are using Silverstein.
Lee
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2015-12-13 04:05
The Silversteins have come and gone on the Berlin broadcasts I've seen, but it doesn't look like anyone has become a convert. As far as whether they're different from string, there are all kinds of different strings you can use for reeds, and they don't all feel or sound the same, either. I like the silver Silverstein I've got quite a lot, and have used string extensively, but can't imagine the new ones are a thousand bucks better than the basic model. Maybe if it kept track of your portfolio while you were playing.
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Author: brycon
Date: 2015-12-13 05:27
I'm still offering my own version of the Silverstein ligature for purchase. I take an inverted Bonade, wrap it in rubberbands, and throw it onto a half empty pizza box in the back of my fridge: it's the Cryo-mold (TM).
But wait...
For more discerning players, I'm pleased to offer a new line of ligatures--perfect for solo performances with large bands and orchestras as well as serenading stoned NYU students and squirrels in Washington Square Park. It's called the Maestrobaiter (TM)!
While the Cryo-molds are incubating atop a week-old slice of pepperoni, I glue plastic rhinestones to its surface, then take a gold sharpie marker (available in rose gold and champagne gold), and write your name and initials on the finished ligature: voila, the Maestrobaiter.
Professional players have reported increased resonance, balanced harmonics, and more even registers after playing the Maestrobaiter. These products have all the hallmarks of other highend metal ligature--overpriced, pointless, etc--but they also have rubberbands and smell like pizza!
So make the switch! Purchase one of these ligatures for only $1,000 and become a Maestrobaiter!
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2015-12-13 21:29
Every player who has tried it compared to all of the other models has preferred it.
The material does make a difference.
Compared to a string player's bow, it is nothing.
To a broke Clarinetist of course it is a mammoth expense.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2015-12-13 22:36
Difference between the good ligature you already have and a $1200 one: negligible.
Being able to say you have a $1200 ligature: priceless.
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Author: Dan Paprocki
Date: 2015-12-13 22:44
I'm using a Vandoren leather with custom wood inserts (rosewood or grenadilla). It's the best I've played which includes Optima, Versa X, Vandoren x/o, Oleg, Sumner, Winslow, etc.
The wood inserts were made by Scott Winkler.
I'm always amazed at the claims of some manufacturers. First I have a degree in mechanical engineering and a DMA in clarinet. The reed is basically a beam that's anchored at one end. If you clamp it down (like a metal ligature) you will stop the reed vibrating faster so you get cleaner articulation but at the cost of not allowing the reed to vibrate wider so you can't put as much air into the setup.
If you go for a freer reed (leather, string, smaller contact points) you can get a bigger sound, better interval connections, but the articulation might not be as clean. Read up on statics and dynamics - these are 1st year courses for engineering majors. The bottom line is how much you dampen or free up the reed. It's also based on how it feels and sounds to a player (and the size of their pocketbook).
I wonder on how much the cryogenic treatment has on the sound. This treatment has much more effect when the whole instrument is treated as in brass instruments. If you want to know what it does read up on material science.
While I'm hear, I've seen some products that have magnets in them and have the claim that it affects the clarinet sound. This is basic physics. Magnetic force does not have any affect on a sound wave.
Someone at one time had a claim that a certain groove in their mouthpiece table affected the laminar air flow. I was rolling on the floor with laughter. I had a semester course on laminar air flow and this person is using this term like they know what they are talking about.
Whatever happen to the ligature setups that Bonade, Marcellus, Drucker, and Leister used? They seemed to get the best sound and musical expression out of their clarinets.
The $1200 can be better spent on good reeds, new music, and a professional overhaul. Ready, Set, Go...
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2015-12-13 23:11
DavidBlumberg wrote:
> But why do some drive Mercedes S Class?
>
'Cause they can't afford a better model?
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2015-12-14 00:02
Bonade and Marcellus used bonades, Drucker used a few different two-screw models, Leister used string for a bit. . Harold Wright used a regular Bonade for years too.
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Author: GLHopkins
Date: 2015-12-14 01:25
What's the difference between a porcupine and a Mercedes?
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2015-12-14 01:32
There has definitely been a recent surge of interest in pink gold as a very favorable material for ligatures. The Weiner Bonade ligature with pink gold plating, for instance, sounds more colorful and sweet to me than the standard Bonade ligature in nickel finish. The pink gold over solid silver Ishimori also seems to offer extra color to the sound. Buffet has recently advertised a "harmonie" model clarinet ligature in pink gold finish, though I'm not sure it really went into production.
So it's certainly possible that the high end Silverstein pink gold ligature might aurally outshine the other Silverstein models. The question is does it do so to the tune of $1,200? If Bonade, Marcellus, and Wright were alive today, who knows that they might be among the first to hear something special in ligatures incorporating pink gold and be willing to pay extra for them. But how much extra? Probably the extra $25 for a pink gold Bonade or $125 extra for a pink gold Ishimori. But the $1000 extra for the Silverstein? Who knows? Just how much better is it than the $200 Cryo4 Silverstein gold that Sabine Meyers seems to have liked?
One thing is certain: If the high end Silversteins markedly improve the sound quality and response of the clarinet for top pros who try them, they will be using them to stay competitive, however much the ligatures exceed the traditional ligature price range.
Post Edited (2015-12-14 01:51)
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2015-12-14 01:36
The Rose Gold Silverstein is not $1200
The Yellow Gold one is
And yes, the plating - the rose gold does make a sound difference. The ishimori Solid Silver compared to the Solid Silver / Rose Gold plated - sounds different.
The plated rose gold one is better.
I've got all 3 from the satin gold plated solid cooper to the other 2 mentioned.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: Something Music
Date: 2015-12-14 01:48
While there might be some differences in how this ligature functions in relation to the other ligatures, isn't this more of an 'expensive wine' effect? (study here: https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/insights/baba-shiv-how-wines-price-tag-affect-its-taste ) Basically because it's more expensive than the average ligature it sounds better because we know it's expensive. If it was marked at, say, $200 it probably wouldn't be even given much discussion on this forum.
Basically, how much does it actually change sound vs how much do we perceive it changed sound due to cost? Right now we have no comparison between them. Perhaps David Blumberg could give us a recording in the name of science?
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Author: Klose ★2017
Date: 2015-12-14 02:07
This might be a very great example of marketing. Using the precious metals and setting a super high price are certainly some tricks a lot of luxury brands use. Same thing also happens in the flute world, companies also claim the platinum sounds better than silver. In terms of sound, a lot of scientific experiments have evidently demonstrated that the professional famous violinists could not tell if the historical, super expensive violins sound better than the modern well-made ones. In these experiments, they were required to listen the sound of two violins, one ancient and one modern. Although they can hear the difference, they could not conclude which one is definitely better (see the link). It is very likely that if David Blumberg or other really famous clarinetists take part in the similar test, they could not tell which ligature is absolutely better as well.
http://www.pnas.org/content/111/20/7168.full
Post Edited (2015-12-14 21:17)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2015-12-14 03:15
The closer the material is to Unobtainium, the better it sounds.
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Author: GLHopkins
Date: 2015-12-14 03:34
I hate to admit it, but I think there is a noticeable difference in a gold plated reverse Bonade and the nickel plated version. I even think my silver plated Bonade sounds better than nickel.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2015-12-14 03:34
I'm skeptical of my own ability to judge material. I was once trying out a mouthpiece that was more open than the one I normally used. I liked some things about the more open piece so I decided to take the plunge and play a performance on it. During the performance I thought I sounded great and was really happy about how the more open mouthpiece was giving me a bigger sound and more flexibility. It was only when I was packing away my instruments that I realised that I'd been playing on my old mouthpiece all along.
So I think that the expensive-wine effect might come into play. But surely a double-blind test would give some answers?
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2015-12-14 04:04
How many of those who advocate XYZ gear have actually paid (full price) for it? Or is it rather "whose bread I eat his song I sing"?
(hides)
--
Ben
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Author: Dan Paprocki
Date: 2015-12-14 05:52
Now if it was made of anamantium and delivered by Wolverine!
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-12-14 06:59
I'm curious to know if the top players that play on Silversteins or Ishmoris got them gratis. If they did, I'm curious to know if they would have tried them if they had to pay for them.
If given to them as "try before you buy," I wonder how many would have kept and paid for them.
I'm not saying some top players would not pay for and use these, and might even derive benefit from them, I'm just curious how free gear, let alone endorsement fees may have, if at all, influenced such player's decisions.
Oh, and as price goes up so does demand: economists have a name for that:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giffen_good.
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Author: ned
Date: 2015-12-14 13:19
''The closer the material is to Unobtainium, the better it sounds.''
Yes...I saw that crap film as well.
********************************************************
Having played a number of different clarinets in my time and various pieces of associated equipment, I'd like to suggest that, initially, we do sound different with different equipment. That is, until your mind and body eventually asserts it influence over the changed situation.
When that ultimately happens, we end up sounding pretty much the same as we did on the ''old equipment.
I was never one for changing just for the sake of it - only out of necessity. I always looked for equipment which could possibly allow me to continue to play and sound as always.
It never happened immediately - but eventually I would be able to wring out the sound I always had.
I don't think I sound much different than when I was a lot younger, at least that's other folks tell me. Technically I'm better, but the sound is pretty much consistent.
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2015-12-14 19:57
Given the lively interest in marketing displayed by the Silverstein website over time, it seems likely that if enough people buy the $800 or $1,200 ligatures, there will be an improved version before long for $2,000 or $2,500. Still, most of us possibly spend more time playing for ourselves than for others, and if the things significantly improve our own experience without changing others' experience for the worse, then there's value in that. There have been tests where people couldn't hear the difference between professional instruments and garden hoses, but nobody plays garden hoses. We play because we love playing, and people can hear just how much we're loving it.
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Author: ClarinetRobt
Date: 2015-12-14 21:01
I know we took my solid silver Ishimori and rose gold plated it at home. The difference was noticeable to my ears (perception), reality...ehh, I sound ok on recordings.
~Robt L Schwebel
Mthpc: Behn Vintage
Lig: Ishimori, Behn Delrin
Reed: Legere French Cut 3.75/4, Behn Brio 4
Horns: Uebel Superior (Bb,A), Ridenour Lyrique, Buffet R13 (Eb)
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2015-12-14 22:45
There is no doubt that different ligature materials impact tone and response, but the question seems to be how much and in which direction. It has been mentioned by several posters here that price tends to effect perception. However, unless you have seen it clearly happen, it may not be understood just how much that is true. My wife used to have a mobile tack (horse equipment) store and specialized in three day eventing. Spring through fall, we were at an event nearly every weekend and traveled all over California. At one point, she had a high end German saddle in stock at a time when the Mark was doing strange things against the Dollar. Because it was a very expensive saddle, she had it for some time and it had gotten to the point that her retail price was lower than the current wholesale price. At one event, a lady came in and liked the saddle. She came back several times to look at it, tried the fit on her horse, rode it around some, and generally seemed ready to buy it. However, she did not come back to buy it before the event ended. During the following week, my wife marked the price up about $300 (to the then current retail price) and then marked it on sale for $100 off of that price. The following weekend, at an event some 200 miles away, the same lady came into the store but did not recognize us as being the same store she had been in the previous weekend. She saw the same saddle and immediately purchased it because at $100 off it was "such a good price". My wife eventually got out of that business because of the equipment manufacturer's pressure to "mark it up so you can mark it down" rather than offering a fair price to begin with.
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2015-12-14 23:03
I bought a $140 Silverstein last winter. In the store I thought it really sounded and felt different. Played it on a gig or two, then became more and more annoyed at the bolt mechanism, the sharp edges, and how it can dig into the hand.
When I went back to try my other ligs, it was embarrassing how much they sounded pretty much the same. The Silverstein didn't sound markedly better than an old metal Leblanc "L"...different maybe, but not really better. I guess if that difference sounds "better" to a player, it would be worth the price. But I preferred the warmer sound I could get from my old Rovner, so I switched back.
The design is a great idea, IMO, and I think it can be the right lig for some folks...Silverstein also has excellent customer service and treat people very well. But the execution of the design with that sharp bolt, a cap that doesn't fit in most mouthpiece slots in cases (making it tough to take to gigs), and the price...well, let's just say that $140 version was the most expensive ligature I've ever purchased, and destined to remain that way.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2015-12-15 03:36
The diamonds on mine David do, don't yours?? ;-)
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Ed
Date: 2015-12-15 03:39
Quote:
I want mine to glow in the dark........ 
I understand they are soon coming out with a radioactive edition. It has had a special treatment, in a nuclear facility.
Post Edited (2015-12-15 05:37)
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Author: GBK
Date: 2015-12-15 04:09
[ Okay kids, we've all had enough - GBK ]
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The Clarinet Pages
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