 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: awildman
Date: 2015-06-20 21:21
Hello again. I took out my old Noblet (which has been sitting in the closet for a decade or two) and found the barrel has a loose upper ring. This, of course, is due to shrinkage. Somebody had attempted to fix this in the past by inserting paper until the ring stayed in place. It wasn't loose when I got it, but now the ring has come loose and the mouthpiece won't insert fully. I would like to attempt fixing this myself if possible.
Multipart question: Is it advisable to use oil to attempt to re-swell the wood? I know oiling is debatable, but this is for the repair of a very dry clarinet. Is 20 year old Leblanc Bore oil (came with the clarinet) acceptable for this procedure? Should I attempt to oil this with the ring on or should I remove and press it on afterwards? Also, will the cork grease from years past affect absorption at all?
Thanks in advance,
-A
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-06-20 21:42
A loose ring can often be snugged up by humidifying the barrel - leave a Dampit or a few pieces of orange peel in the case overnight. There's enough exposed end grain to re-humidify the wood. If it doesn't tighten enough in this way, the paper shim you found is the most common way, AFAIK, to get the ring tight.
I'm not sure, though, why your mouthpiece won't insert fully. I've never experienced that problem even when rings got loose on my instruments. That may be a different problem.
Karl
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-06-20 21:45
BTW, if you try and succeed with tightening the fit up on your own, make sure you put the ring on in the right orientation. The beveled end should sit down on the shoulder of the socket. the straight end should be at the top so the end of the barrel is a flat surface.
Karl
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Author: knotty
Date: 2015-06-20 21:51
Seems teflon tape would also be a choice.
~ Musical Progress: None ~
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Author: awildman
Date: 2015-06-20 22:04
Teflon tape is for temporary fixes, yes? I'm looking for a permanent solution.
I can only assume the problem lies with the wooden barrel. The ring is extremely loose, to the tune of 1+ mm of slop. The mouthpiece inserts just fine into other barrels.
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2015-06-20 23:06
Rehumidify with water vapor first (as suggested above). It might take considerably longer than overnight, but trying to change it too fast could stress the wood. Oiling first could block the absorption of moisture into the wood. If the outside of the barrel has shrunk as much as you indicate, the inside of the socket has probably shrunk some, too. That could give problems fitting your mouthpiece as well. When a solid with a hole in it is made to expand, the hole is made to expand as well. The reverse is also true.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-06-20 23:21
BartHx wrote:
> If the outside
> of the barrel has shrunk as much as you indicate, the inside of
> the socket has probably shrunk some, too.
I don't think so. I'm not confident enough of my understanding of the physics involved, but I think (from high school physics a long time ago but also as recently discussed here on the BB) that the wood will contract toward *its* center, not the center of the cylinder. The wall of the socket, I think, will contract so that it becomes thinner and the inside circumference will expand as the outer circumference becomes shorter.
My lack of confidence in the explanation keeps me from arguing this very loudly, but I think the mouthpiece might actually fit more loosely as a result of the dessicated wood's shrinkage.
In any case, unless the ring isn't original to the instrument and is the wrong size, AFAIK shimming it with paper (or maybe some commercially sold substitute) is the normal way to secure it if humidifying the barrel doesn't restore things.
Karl
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Author: awildman
Date: 2015-06-20 23:27
In that case, the whole instrument could stand to be hydrated. Now you've got me worried that the loose ring is indicative of the other parts.
The odd thing to me is that the bottom end of the barrel seems to be ok. It assembles with no problems. I don't think that ring was ever loose. Maybe the orientation of the barrel in the case prevented humidity from reaching the problem end? And it probably didn't help that the case was stored in a cardboard box for most of a decade as well.
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Author: awildman
Date: 2015-06-20 23:33
If it's anything like metal, expansion will make the inner circle have a larger diameter as well as the outer circle. Akin to the way arches support weight. A circle is merely a continuous arch, and as such, pushes everything outward. That is, if wood reacts the same as metal.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-06-21 01:16
In my experience you are both right. I've had clarinets that were neglected for a few months after heavy play. The rings got loose. I didn't really do anything but start playing heavily on them again and the rings got better.....but.....to get the rings snug I was always told by my techs of yore, to shim with some paper (I've gone a bit further and used some thin shims (less wide than the thickness of the rings) of 400 grit wet/dry. Those rings are STAYING ON !!!
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: JHowell
Date: 2015-06-21 08:10
Place a sheet of cigarette paper over the end of the barrel. Slide the ring over the paper. Snug? Good, trim off the excess and play. Not quite snug? Add another piece of cigarette paper and try again.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2015-06-21 14:00
I prefer to shim with shellac for wood clarinets. This was mentioned a few times on this forum by a few repairers... with some arguements... but here is why.
Shellac is hard and one criticism is that it's brittle, but I've had zero issues with it in supporting socket rings. Actually it is great for support in this situation.
It is the "perfect" shim, as opposed to anything solid like plastic, paper, etc. The socket and the ring might not be perfectly round and there probably won't be equal space all around between them. The shellac fills the exact space. Paper or anything solid can make some areas too tight while other without the same support, or just overall less control of the shim amount.
It is easy to install and remove if it's necessary, for example if moving to an area with the opposite extreme weather.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-06-21 14:43
Thank you for that explanation. I've had rings fall off before and saw the bits of shellac and always wondered about that. I certainly see the reason for using shellac, but being such a brittle filler, it seems just a few simple cycles of expansion and contraction would cause it to fail. Might there be a more modern equivalent that is more supple?
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2015-06-21 15:51
I've used shellac to seat rings, but where the ring was very loose I've also used hot-melt glue, the reason being that it is flexible and will remain in place as the wood moves with changes in humidity.
Tony F.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-06-21 17:19
Tony or Nitai,
Could you describe the process of installing a ring with shellac or hot melt glue? I can see the advantage in theory, but It doesn't seem to me you have enough working time to work the ring on (especially if it's very loose) before the shellac or glue sets. If the ring needs to be removed for any reason, do you just force it off or do you ned to heat the ring to melt the filler?
Karl
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2015-06-21 18:04
If using shellac, dissolve the shellac in some alcohol until it is quite viscous, and then paint it onto the wood and slide the ring in place with as much force as necessary. Clean up with alcohol. For hot-melt, the glue I use remains sufficiently liquid to give a good working time, but if yours doesn't then try heating the ring first. Apply the glue to the wood and then slide the ring in place. To remove either, heat the ring with something like a soldering iron.
Tony F.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-06-21 18:34
When I mount pads with shellac, I melt it directly into the pad cup from a stick. But I used dissolved shellac to mount pads long ago in another lifetime, and it took a long time for the shellac to harden. When repairmen I've gone to mount pads with dissolved shellac, they heat the liquid in the pad cup to evaporate the alcohol so the shellac hardens as everything cools.
How long, then, does it take the shellac you use to shim a ring to set up so it holds firmly? Can the joint be assembled safely right away, or is it better to wait until everything is dried and hardened?
Karl
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2015-06-21 21:56
If you heated the ring the shellac will set up in a few minutes, but if you do it cold then leave it for a couple of hours.
Tony F.
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2015-06-21 22:06
Karl:
I am a physics instructor. Did your high school physics teacher use the old ring and ball demo where the ball will not fit through the ring until the ring is heated and expands. A solid (even with holes in it) will expand away from and contract toward its central point, even if that point is in the middle of a hole. You are correct that there would be some expansion or contraction within the wall of the socket when that is the sample being considered. However, because the dimension of the socket wall is quite small compared to the dimension of the overall socket, the change in the wall thickness would be small in comparison to the change in the internal diameter of the whole socket. Think of the dimension change as a consistent percentage of the dimension being considered and it may be easier to tie it all together. Expansion and contraction should behave in the same manner whether we are talking about changes in temperature or changes in moisture content.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2015-06-22 09:10
>> I've had rings fall off before and saw the bits of shellac and always wondered about that. I certainly see the reason for using shellac, but being such a brittle filler, it seems just a few simple cycles of expansion and contraction would cause it to fail. <<
All I can say is that I've never seen one (that I've done) fail. The weather here in my city is pretty cold in the winter, very hot in the summer and on many days it is hot in the day and cold in the night and changes fast. It's also very dry most of the time, but many people also go to another city often where it's very humid. So basically extreme conditions.
My own clarinet had a socket ring that was very loose in the winter and very tight in the summer, but with shellac hasn't moved in years.
Maybe the ones you've seen had much more extreme conditions, or (maybe more likely) there was something wrong with the shellac used and/or the installation (e.g. air pockets).
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2015-06-22 09:12
>> I've used shellac to seat rings, but where the ring was very loose I've also used hot-melt glue, the reason being that it is flexible and will remain in place as the wood moves with changes in humidity. <<
It's true that most hot glue is more springy and flexible but IMO offers less support in this situation (as opposed to pads, where it passes a "support threshold" so no compromise). Since I've had zero issues with shellac, inclduing under pretty extreme conditions and rings that were very loose, I just prefer to use it.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2015-06-22 09:50
>> Could you describe the process of installing a ring with shellac or hot melt glue? <<
I heat the ring, spread shellac all over the inside, then quickly mount it and remove any excess. I don't like to use shellac softened in alcohol because it takes much longer and I see no advantage to it. The plasticky state of the hot shellac is actually great for exactly accomodating the space, plus the relatively fast drying is good for it to remain exactly there.
>> I can see the advantage in theory, but It doesn't seem to me you have enough working time to work the ring on (especially if it's very loose) before the shellac or glue sets. <<
There's enough time. The shellac only needs to be soft for the few seconds it takes to mount the ring back on and maybe giving it a slight turn. It's usually soft for a little longer than it takes me to do that.
>> If the ring needs to be removed for any reason, do you just force it off or do you ned to heat the ring to melt the filler? <<
I've never had to remove one, but I've done it just for a test. I just heat the ring with an electric heater or an air torch and remove it.
>> How long, then, does it take the shellac you use to shim a ring to set up so it holds firmly? Can the joint be assembled safely right away, or is it better to wait until everything is dried and hardened? <<
It takes a few minutes. Prorbably about a minute after I mount the ring but I wait a bit longer just to be sure. Yes, someone can just assemble and play the clarinet a few minutes after it's done. That's another advantage (to using alcohol, someone can just take the clarinet and immediately play it, as opposed to leaving it for hours or a day, come back, wait a long time, etc. (and there are no disadvantages IMO).
Post Edited (2015-06-22 09:59)
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Author: awildman
Date: 2015-06-23 01:17
I'm trying the dampit for a few days first. If the mouthpiece doesn't go in like it's supposed to I see no point in trying to reattach the ring.
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Author: sbrodt54
Date: 2015-06-23 01:50
Loose rings indicate a loss of moisture in the wood, it's possible all of the pieces are too dry. When I have loose rings to refit I first humidity the entire clarinet for several days, a week or two if it's really dry.
If there are loose rings at that point, I shrink the rings with the proper tool and they will support the wood properly like they did when the instrument was new.
The mouthpiece should fit poorly in the barrel before you humidify it, the inside bore will be elliptical, not round. When the wood expands or contracts, it rarely will do so uniformly.
Scott Brodt
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2015-06-23 23:35
>> Shellacking it into place is probably not the worst idea, that is like gluing it. It is also probably not a permanent solution but then it's not like it's a huge maintenance issue either. <<
I wouldn't say it is "like gluing it"... it is gluing it... but with a glue that dries and offeres excellent support. The ring needs to stay on and have solid suport to the wood and many glues would allow the former but not the latter.
IME of doing this for years, it is realistically permanent. In the rare cases when it's not... that's a good thing.
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Author: sbrodt54
Date: 2015-06-24 00:00
After repairing some where in the neighborhood of 3000 wooden clarinets (on the bench for 45 years), I would have to disagree with the no humidity thinking. The key to keeping your clarinet stable is a combination of humidity, oil (organic only) and swabbing it out.
After you have some experience on the repair side of the clarinet world, it's pretty easy to tell who humidifies/oils and who does not. I preach humidity and oil, I have never seen mold in a case that's humidified correctly. Around here the weather is very dry from October until April. During the warm months extra humidity is not needed at all.
ALL wood needs moisture, your chair, desk, your clarinet, without moisture it would quickly be driftwood on the beach. Take care of your clarinet right from new and it will play beautifully for many years.
Scott Brodt
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Author: awildman
Date: 2015-06-24 16:44
For those who advocate not humidifying, how would you solve the problem of the upper joint being too tight? Being able to insert the mouthpiece with normal force is pretty important. Also, remember that this clarinet has not been used for two or 3 decades.
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2015-06-24 19:35
Just my experience, but . . . .
At one point I got a clarinet at an extremely good price because it had a couple of hair-line cracks and some loose rings. I took a pill bottle (slightly smaller than a mouthpiece) drilled four small holes below the edge of the cap, put a damp sponge in it, and put it in the case with the instrument. I periodically redampen the sponge and I oil the bore about once per year. It is one of the instruments I use and, at this point, all rings are tight and, even knowing where they were, I can no longer find any evidence of the cracks. I allowed time for the rings to tighten and the cracks to close before I started the annual oiling. I have had no problem with anything unwanted growing in the case.
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Author: sbrodt54
Date: 2015-06-24 22:43
Sorry, I have a job that requires me to work, I can't play on the board all day long.
One point, oil and water are absorbed into wood in different ways, adding water may actually push some of the oil out.
Back to work, sorry I can't stay. Humidifying a clarinet is fairly simple, and very important.
Scott Brodt
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Author: awildman
Date: 2015-06-24 22:46
It is modern dimensions. Clarinet made in mid 80s I think. Guess I should have clarified "old Noblet" from my original post. I keep forgetting that 'old' has different meanings to everybody. In this particular case, old means well-used and needing a lot of work. Sorry about any confusion.
That being said, I don't feel it is wise or practical to modify working parts like corks and mouthpiece tenons to fit a worn or defective part. One should be able to interchange barrels and mouthpieces without restrictions. Especially if I ever plan to pass the instrument on to somebody else. I don't NEED to keep the barrel, but it would be nice to have the original barrel if possible.
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2015-06-25 02:19
--The fact that "a ring" on your barrel is loose is an indication that the wood it was originally fitted to has reduced in size and/or slightly changed shape. IMO, the first thing to do is attempt to address that issue. Once that is accomplished, oil should help prevent recurrence. I would shy away from using antique bore oil. I like Bore Doctor (I have no connection to the Doctor) and there are some other similar bore oils available.
--My 1930s Kolert had a smaller than current standard mouthpiece socket. I suppose I could have had one or both of its mouthpieces reworked until I found something that worked for me. However, I preferred to have the greater selection available with modern mouthpieces and the ability to replace one that might get damaged. I also have some more modern instruments that get played, too. I have a very good tech who does the repairs for which I do not have the tools or experience. The solution for me was to have him turn out the size of the socket (actually <1 mm total) so that I can use the same mouthpieces on all my instruments. There is still more than adequate thickness for the socket wall (<0.5 mm of thickness was removed).
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Author: awildman
Date: 2015-06-25 07:39
Thank you, Silver. I will tell you what I know. Unfortunately, I don't really play yet, so I might not be as detailed as you would like.
I bought the clarinet 10 or 15 years ago from that auction site. It was used by a girl during high school (Texas) and was sitting in her family's closet for a few years. That's when I got it. My aspirations to fix it up and learn to play fell by the wayside and it continued to sit in the closet (mine, this time) until present. All the pieces appear to be original,including the mouthpiece. Both the serial numbers match, and all the logos match. All the pieces seem to be from similar wood that has aged similarly.
I apologize, but I don't remember much about the condition when I got it, other than noting how dry the wood appeared to be and seeing how bad the pads were. It is completely unplayable due to pads. Corks look fine to me. All the joints go together firmly and smoothly. Good fit. A key might need to be straightened, but otherwise they seem to operate correctly. None of them stick. Springs look to be tarnished but are probably serviceable. There are no cracks that I can see. Posts appear to be stable. I can't get any of them to wobble with moderate force. The barrel ring rotates freely and evenly all the way around. The shrinkage is quite uniform (round). Without measuring anything, it appears to be about as round as it can be, just shrunk. I can say with confidence that this instrument has probably never been oiled or maintained an any way other than what was absolutely necessary. I think the clarinet was played a lot by the original owner, and was not treated gently. But I don't think it was abused.
The mouthpiece I am using for comparison is a Hite Premier that I bought 10+ years ago. But the Noblet mouthpiece that came with this clarinet is much much tighter than the Hite. The Hite fits perfectly into the other 2 junker clarinet barrels I have, but the Noblet is extremely tight in all the barrels, and tightest by far in it's matching barrel. The cork is thicker on the Noblet than the Hite, but the tenons are the same diameter when held together.
Humidity in the summer here is pretty low. 25-35%. It rains about 6 months out of the year, but will be mostly dry until things cool down, maybe September.
I am not "dedicated" to the idea of water hydration. There simply seemed to be a lot of people being vocal about NO OIL. It's hard to know who to listen to and who to ignore. Or even if they are answering the same question. I'm not opposed to oil, as evidenced by my original question.
I took the clarinet in to a local shop for a repair estimate a couple of months back. They quoted me 500 for a complete overhaul, including a strongly recommended "warm oil bath" because the instrument is "extremely dry". They did not give me a detailed quote, however. I don't even know if they assembled the clarinet or knew the barrel was a problem. But I don't think a professional repair shop would give oil baths to clarinets if it caused problems.
Sorry if I missed answering some of your questions. My bad shoulder won't let me sit here and type anymore. Let me know if you have any more questions or need clarification.
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Author: awildman
Date: 2015-06-26 01:34
I'm allergic to nuts.
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Author: awildman
Date: 2015-06-26 05:03
Lest that come across wrong, I have nut allergies and need to avoid almond based oils.
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2015-06-26 10:18
What is the best glue to use on a loose ring? Super glue gel, Gorilla glue for wood, or perhaps something else?
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Author: Dibbs
Date: 2015-06-26 12:58
Clarineteer wrote:
> What is the best glue to use on a loose ring? Super glue gel,
> Gorilla glue for wood, or perhaps something else?
If you can be bothered to read all of the above they discuss the relative merits of shellac, hot melt glue and just shimming with paper or teflon tape.
Personally I'd use epoxy. I can't see any advantage of a reversible glue in this application. Why would you ever want to take a ring off again?
Put the glue on the ring only, not the wood. That way you won't have any squeeze out onto the body of the instrument that you have to clean up.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2015-06-26 14:26
>> Personally I'd use epoxy. I can't see any advantage of a reversible glue in this application. Why would you ever want to take a ring off again? <<
I use epoxy for plastic instruments, where the ring isn't there to help against cracks like on a wood instrument.
The ring would only need to be removed and re-attached if moving somewhere with extremely different weather.
The other reason I prefer shellac is that just a few minutes later the owner can take the clarinet and immedaitely play it, but no disadvantages or any compromises. I haven't found an epoxy that dries fast and is as hard as I'd like for this.
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2015-06-27 10:17
So then Gorilla Glue for wood would be the perfect compromise.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2015-06-27 11:02
I heat the ring, smear a bit of hot melt gue on the inside and fit while still warm, removing excess glue. Works just fine on wood and plastic.
--
Ben
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2015-06-28 08:42
Silversorcerer, I didn't say that I would want to use an epoxy that has anywhere near the strength of steel. Actually all I said was that I didn't use epoxy to glue metal rings to wood clarinets at all. Just because the epoxy that was fast was also not hard enough doesn't mean I would want the hardest setting epoxy...
I was hoping you would stop it but you keep misinterpreting and insulting me... now resorting to "pretend-quoting" me... can you please stop...? If you want to argue with anything I didn't write, please leave me out of it...
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