 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-04-25 03:22
I interrupted my practice session to sit down and start yet another reed thread. We have so many, and I personally have at least one still "open" I'll probably be adding to later tonight.
But this is a very specific question / issue I'd like others to weigh in on. Even though I know that this will spread to other stuff as always, LOL.
These days I break in new Vandoren blues for 10 play sessions. Mostly I consider them pretty much settled by the 4th or 5th session, that varies.
I have found that my broken in blues do not like to be played again for 7 to 10 days after any substantial amount of play. (That's also true for all reeds I've tried, in retrospect I think perhaps even the Legeres I gave up on!) That's a real bummer because it means I need upwards of 10 good reeds ready to play at any time, and I'm still striving for that- I think I'll get there.
If I play a reed again too soon, it's too soft and mushy. Give it enough days recovery, and it's "good as new". Play it too soon, and I might be tempted to trim, or ATG, and still not get it playing as well as it would if I'd waited long enough. (I am 99% sure of all this- took me a long time and lots of bad play days to figure it out. Best way to experiment is pick up a reed you set aside a month ago- if it plays better than you remember- maybe you didn't rest it enough last time!).
So- today I pick up a "6-day-broken-in" blue that was top notch 2 days ago, and it feels like mush. And I think it just needs a few days rest to continue well. So breakin can't even go every other day? Wow.
Thoughts, anyone?
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Roxann
Date: 2015-04-25 04:51
Maybe that explains what happened to me last night while our band was warming up for a concert. I had a lesson earlier in the day and put on a reed that turned out to sound so nice I decided to save it for the concert. So, I immediately took it off and put another one on. Four hours later, I put the first reed on for the concert and it played awful. I actually could get absolutely no sound out of it when I played a B 15 minutes into the warmup. I was horrified! So, I left the stage and changed reeds and ligatures to a reed I'd used a few days before and every problem I'd been having had been resolved. WHEW! I've never stopped to consider that reeds need to rest. However, I have 9 good reeds broken in right now and I rotate among them while practicing, rehearsing, or performing. I guess that habit has saved me a lot of frustration!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-04-25 05:43
I have seen elsewhere here on BBoard the imperative not to play a reed 2 days in a row. But it took me a while to realize 1 day isn't enough for my own stock. I was slow. I'm in a daily (mostly) practice routine. When I would get sick, or for some other reason miss several days, I noticed starting back up was better than I expected, partly because my reeds had all perked up. Eventually I really tried to figure out the magic number of days. For a long while I thought it was 5 6 or 7. Most of the time I think 3 to 5 will actually suffice. But sometimes it seems 7 isn't enough. 10 is very safe.
Anybody else find such long reed recovery times? If not, are you really sure longer rest wouldn't help your reeds? Scientific comparison? Tough to monitor but the data is worth it. I have a reed Excel spreadsheet that has evolved through my years of play. Doesn't have to be that complicated if you have enough nice reeds.
This whole thing is also tied up in whether 1 good reed is usable for an entire day's play, because if not, you (I) will use more than one per day. Maybe it's a vicious circle- reeds not lasting through an hour of vigorous play (with my requisite C7's! ![[C7]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/c7.gif) ) because they weren't rested enough days? I am making progress, though after a long time of struggles. Vandoren blue #3 instead of #2.5 was part of the answer, so it seems.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: nellsonic
Date: 2015-04-25 08:50
I'm not sure about resting reeds multiple days, but I can tell you that if you expect to play on one reed for more than 30-60 minutes without it getting a bit softer, you are likely bound for disappointment. This idea of resting them multiple days is new to me, but the practice of using several reeds during the course of a day to keep from playing on something soft seems to be common among accomplished players.
A reed that I don't overplay on a particular day seems to be just as good the following day well more than half the time. Now you've got me wondering whether more rest might help boost consistency further. I'll be curious to hear what others have experienced.
I really don't like spending too much time/thought on reeds when I'm sitting down to play. ATG/Reed Geek and a healthy supply are about as far as I usually go, but I could probably handle being a touch more rigorous if the results merited it.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Wisco99
Date: 2015-04-25 09:56
Three days, 2 hours and 35 minutes seems to be the optimum resting time for a reed after extensive scientific research. Of course the reed needs to be stored in a north-south direction, and the temperature maintained at a constant 71.5 degrees unless there is a full moon, in which case all bets are off and you ask a blind person with cool looking shades to pick out the best reed for you. Word has it Benny Goodman just went through several boxes of new reeds until he found one he liked, played the gig with that, and repeated the procedure. Either method works.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: nellsonic
Date: 2015-04-25 10:08
Has Anton moved to Wisconsin?
Anders
Post Edited (2015-04-25 21:57)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-04-25 10:21
Attachment: ReedExcel1.png (61k)
I bet I'm not the only one here with an Excel spreadsheet for reeds. Whether it improves our music is another matter.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: faltpihl ★2017
Date: 2015-04-25 13:07
This is new to me. Im on my way to buy more reeds and reed cases and try it at once.
I remember a long time ago I felt "Wow this reed is great" when first opening the reed from Its box, then never finding the same feeling. I rotate most reeds in a few days, thinking Its bad to play too long on one reed.
I don't have an Excel sheet yet, but a piece of paper in my case.
Might start using something digital soon.
Regards
Peter
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-04-25 15:04
I don't really have that experience. But that said, I rotate through most of a box of ten at any given point. With the majority of my 56 Rue Lepic or V21s working (say at least six if not seven), that's almost a week before I'm back to the same reed. However, when there is a particularly stellar reed involved and crucial performances, I have used one reed three days straight with not issue (other than taking away the reed's overall life expectancy).
I also don't really experience a reed getting softer across 3 to 5 hours of play - unless you're talking Legere synthetic reeds (just another reason that makes them unacceptable).
............Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-04-25 18:51
Stan, as always, I can, like most of us, sympathize and empathize with your struggle for decent playing reeds, that offer some degree of consistency, as well as the cost in dollars and time it takes to find them.
That said, I want to talk about an important but sometimes elusive factor that bulletin board conversation in any forum, this one included, will likely never capture.
That factor is "how does Stan's grading of reeds compare to what others might say of those reeds were they testing them on their own and Stan's setup, right along side him?"
Stated in other terms, I don't know your personal tolerance levels for "cane reed imperfection," perhaps the most redundant description in speech.
And until I know this, I don't know how much the problem needs to be addressed through fixing reeds, and how much "tough love" should be used to say, if at all, "Stan, suck it up. This reed, while not perfect, is better than half my performance reeds."
I am blind to fairly saying, "Stan, the problem's with your skill level, not the reed." And for all I know, I could walk away from such a session of reed comparison with you telling myself, "man, the problem's with Stan's reeds, not him. This guy can make unplayable reeds sound good!"
Such are one of the many advantages of having another set of eyes, in the form of a good private instructor, at your disposal, despite the fact that I completely respect (if not agree) with your decision, as in past threads, to not spend the time and money to pursue this avenue for various reasons that work for you.
Accordingly, I reencourage you to seek out such guidance, even if it's with the stipulation that you don't seek long term lessons, or to be stuck in front of some etude book, but rather to focus on reeds, and what you can do to play better on them. The paradox with this though is that such study books are the foundation to you sounding better on any reed.
===
Okay, off my soapbox, and back to helping you where I can. The guidance I offer, should be taken as one man's opinion, not dogma. Larry's above sarcasm may be direct, if not also indirectly saying that the only real hard and fast rules are that there are few, if any, hard and fast rules.
I have a humdity controlled box of 20+ or more reeds that I consider ready for play. The humdity packs are from Boveda and the box from the Lock and Lock company. http://www.amazon.com/Lock-1-5-Cups-Removable-Trays/dp/B0028LT9DI. And yes, this box was what the now discontinued Rico Reed Vault was.
Before we even continue, it's important that we focus on this 20+ figure. Am I some reed adjusting genius?...the love child of "Eva Vandoren" and "Juan Gonzalez," and their family's respective reed plantations, for me to pick reeds from?...some vituosic player? No way.
So, if I have access to reeds and adjustment mechanisms no better than yours, how do I perform my "magic." The answer is I don't. Try my "performing reeds" and I bet that you' nd others will say that they are, on average, "okay." I'll bet, more than anything here, that our differences are simply that "my standards for what constitues a good reed are lower than yours."
And with 20+ reeds to choose from I do alternate them. I'll switch reeds mid practice session under the belief that resting reeds gives you more hours of good play on them than if you play them until exhaustion with limited interruption.
Equally important (I know you love sports), I have a "farm team" of reeds Stan. I am always trying out new reeds to see which ones make it to the "performance box." I do this at at rate that's consistent with the degree to which I retire reeds out of the performance box, into the garbage. Reeds leave my "performance box" at highly unpredictable rates. I could go days without parting with a reed, and the next day, retire 5 of them.
=====================
Finally, lets talk about reed requirements. This is with tough love Stan, not disrepect intended.
Hi-C is a drink, not a basis around which to make reed decisions, referring to C7. And like in the case of breeding animals, trying too hard to achieve offspring across generations, with certain characteristics, often comes at the expense of other good characteristics and overall animal heath. Such is true for reeds too.
I get it. I really do; and respect it too. For you, C7 is the culmination of your spiritual genre of play; this note's high pitch synonomous with connection to your faith and creator. What concerns me is the decent reeds that may end up in the trash because they were just never meant to be "soprano singers."
Still more, and I assure you, this is not bragging, but to make a point. I can hit C7 on any of my so called "performance reeds." Yes, I may find myself snugging mouthpiece a bit to get this note with the standard double pointer finger etc. fingering, but I can do it. Since I'm no clarinet genius playing so-so reeds, what's my "secret?"
My real secret, before break-in techniques, and humdity, and ATG, which is no secret at all, was 2 things.
First and lessor so, me, and hard work. Secondly and more important, rigorous commitment to excellent works that explore the clarinet's stratosphere like Carl Baermann's Comlete Method for Clarinet Op. 63, third division.
I really wish you luck with this. But time is better spent, I feel, doing runs in this book, than keeping spreadsheet 411 on reeds, that can just be written in shorthand on them.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2015-04-25 20:57
Stan, my experience seems different, though you have been much more systematic than I've been, so I'm not disagreeing, just putting in two cents.
I used to rotate reeds, for some forgotten reason. Now I use the same reed every day until it degrades enough to annoy me. I may not be ultra picky for practice reeds, but I do favor better sounding reeds even in practice.
That's 3-4 hours a day, consecutive days, not counting band rehearsals etc. I usually get months of good use from a reed doing this. Once it seems to degrade (i.e. the sound gets harsh and control is lost,) I rest it, usually for more than a week, maybe several weeks - who knows. If I don't forget which reed it was, I will try it again. Sometimes the "degraded" reed has miraculously recovered during the rest, and I can continue using it (but it seems to degrade sooner the next time.)
I wash my reeds in hot water after each session. It removes accumulated residue and kills any bacteria (which, I recently read here, can cause reeds to degrade.) If interested, wade through old threads.
It may be germane that I leave my reeds out to air dry when not in use. They may dry completely by the next practice.
I wish I **knew** more about this stuff.
I'm a bit surprised about using C7 as a test. It isn't a terribly hard note to hit; of course I've played it numerous times in every practice for years; as Dave said, there's technique that gets learned. (I have more trouble with Bb6 using the short fingering.) Some of the higher notes - E7 and up - seem to need stiffer reeds, or maybe a better player.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-04-25 22:04
Perhaps I have talked here too much about C7. OK, forget it for now. If you've looked at the spreadsheet snippet I posted (spreadsheet is over the top I admit, the culmination of years of trying to address what matters and set aside what doesn't)--- you'll see I rate the playability of reeds on this scale:
4 - stellar / flawless / no complaints
3 - playable with no major issues, but not the best
(for a long time- 3 was my top rating- but I suffered grade inflation)
2 - something is seriously wrong, but worth continuing to work with
1 - totally unacceptable- set aside unless early in breakin
In the snapshot I show my current working set- there are dozens of other reeds down below- reeds migrate up and down and I strive to have nothing but 4's in the top group, except those not broken in yet.
Let me address what separates a playability = 3 from a 4 for me. I don't think it's ever just C7 yea or nay. Many 3's have a stability problem with a note or range of notes I've not been able to balance away, often in the A5 ![[A5]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/a5.gif) to F6 ![[F6]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/f6.gif) range. Others might be too resistant in low register, or just require too much air pressure even though not really too stiff (hard to describe but I bet all of you have felt this)... again something I might fix by ATG or eventually give up and set the reed aside. But by contrast, a genuine 4 fights with me on nothing, plays the way all reeds ought to play every day, in a perfect music world.
But... nearly all of my 4's were once 3's, or even 2's, some for many days. And some combination of ATG and trimming and playing and RESTING promoted them- and some stay 4's but others don't, or go back and forth.
My ability to play well on 3's (not 2's) is much better than it used to be. Some 3's are just more inclined for squeaks than 4's, but I can tighten embouchure to control some of that (I just think I shouldn't need to!). I no longer fear being in front of an audience without a 4. But life is too short to allow this to happen deliberately or by laziness. If diligence in record keeping and such gives me more play time on 4's, I'll do that in a heartbeat.
Over time, my playing demands on reeds get higher, and I "push" my 4's more. By that I mean- I am increasing my dynamics high and low, and how rapidly I change levels and pitches, beyond where previously I would have lost control. My improvisations get more complex, momentarily or for good. Better reeds let me do this more, and the goalposts get moved further away. I strive to do this too much (for the musicality) so I can later back off to what I judge the right amount and be secure. I want to make such choices for musical reasons, not because of limits on what I can play or what my equipment will let me play. And reeds that play that well always allow C7, at least for some number of songs (see my "Endurance" ranking).
Back to the original topic of this post- if a reed was a solid 4 last play session, but now is not- unless it has been 7 to 10 days since that last round, I suspect it will return to a 4 on its own, if I give it more rest. And in fact I may have reset the clock (calendar) by even wetting it and giving it a test toot... my bad.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2015-04-25 22:21)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JonTheReeds
Date: 2015-04-26 00:07
My teacher said to me that each reed is different. Well I agree with that. The corollary is that if you keep changing reeds it's difficult to know if a change in sound quality is down to the reed or technique. Well, that makes sense as well. Therefore it follows you should find a good reed and stick with it
I used to change reeds all the time. Now, I have a main reed which I let to dry while I put my clarinet away before I put the reed back in its case. Of course, I have spares in case the main one breaks. I find that if the main reed doesn't play well, all I normally need to do is play it for few minutes, take it off and replace it and it plays fine. This approach works for me and a good reed lasts me a month or so. And it saves me an awful lot of time with fiddling around with reeds. But I appreciate that some people actual enjoy playing around with reeds
--------------------------------------
The older I get, the better I was
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2015-04-26 02:15
One advantage of regularly rotating reeds is that it encourages embouchure flexibilty to deal with the differences. Also playing just one reed to the death leaves you with no reference to judge the next reeds by.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-04-26 02:42
Ditto that Norman.
I prefer the "flexible" route. Also you have more to rely on that way in case of "catastrophic failure" such as smashing #1 with you ligature or dropping #1 down a sewer grate.
I would also offer up this (again) for what Mark Nuccio says about having the same reed for the same piece of the same concert series (at about 2:20):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9y0Zv3EZ-Ms
It's kinda like doing BOTH ideas in a really detailed manner.
..............Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2015-04-26 02:44)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-04-26 03:03
Philip- I really think my 7 to 10 days is how long it takes my reeds to return to an equilibrium long term moisture condition. That is, if I could measure them after 4 days, 10 days, and 100 days, 10 and 100 would be the same, but the 4 day reading would be different.
My reed handling, cleaning, and storage protocol has changed several times while it seems my reed recovery time has not changed. But perhaps I've never sought to thoroughly dry them after use, as you say you air dry them.
After I'm done with each reed, I soak it 30-60 sec in clean tap water (for a long time I used dilute peroxide), blot it on tissue, then set it flat on the table to dry. At the end of my 60-90 min session, all the reeds- including the one I just removed from clarinet and soaked, go in my humidity controlled bulk reed storage (been doing that about a year I think). So is it possible that if I deliberately dried them more, they'd recover faster? Do you really think your hot water vs room temp water rinse makes any difference?
And all of you- long term I think this will be a non issue for me, because like many of you, I'll have a large enough batch of playable reeds they will "automatically" get rested enough. I've only got a temporary problem because I've only recently settled on Vandoren blue #3 and it takes a while to build up enough winners. And of course if I ever switch again (I wouldn't bet against that) I'll be back to square one again.
I started this thread to see if others noticed reed recovery over time, and for how long. As usual the responses are all over the place, but at least I know I'm not completely alone.
And my reed "5I", the one that went down from a 4 three days ago to a 2 yesterday, and prompted me to start this thread... played great today, even though it got wet and briefly played yesterday. So all my data is not consistent, so it seems it always is with clarinet. You have to go with the averages.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2015-04-26 05:02)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Wisco99
Date: 2015-04-28 01:09
Reeds are like underwear, you should change them at least once a day.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chetclarinet
Date: 2015-04-28 16:55
When I as in music school, I actually learned to make reeds from reed blanks and for several years, never used a commercial reed. The reeds made from blanks, actually lasted longer and required less rest. These days, I just play all ten new reeds in a box briefly for a minute or two each, put them on a table with the flat surface up, and continue this process for three days. I then pick the best,and discard the rest! The commercial reeds that I pick are rotated daily-- works for me!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
