 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: mnhnhyouh
Date: 2014-08-16 15:20
I watched a youtube video a while ago about warping reeds.
The test in the video was to place the reed, flat side down, on glass, and put a finger on each long edge and try to rock the reed side to side. If it rocks, it is warped, if it doesnt it is flat.
I tested mine and a couple were warped. I played them and they were not that good, then I sanded the flat side on some 600 grit paper that was on a glass table. The reed was much better. When I sand them I keep the top cm or 2 off the edge of the paper, not wanting to affect the reed strength.
Where I live it is hot (36 C - about 95F?) with 60 - 80% humidity.
Today I pulled out an old good reed, tested it and it was fine. I soaked it in water for less than a minute, and started playing. It was fine for about 3 or 4 minutes, but then started to sound horrible. Since I am a beginner I always suspect it is me. But after a couple of minutes I took the reed off, and tested it again. It was warped.
I rinsed it off in fresh water, dried it as well as I could, and sanded the flat side until it was nice and flat, and played with it again. It sounded great.
I used to dry my reeds flat side down on a flat glass surface, and then put them in a reed case. But the same video said I should dry them flat side up as that dries them better. I am wondering if the change has caused my reeds to warp more quickly, and have gone back to flat side down on glass.
h
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2014-08-16 15:46
Forget all of that, except to test for warpage.
Get a Rico reed case (with the pack inside for humidity control -$22 aprox)
You could buy the 53% (aprox number) humidity pack
It prevents the reed from drying out too slowly nor too quickly.
Don't play a new reed longer than 5 min for the first 3 days to break it in.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: mnhnhyouh
Date: 2014-08-16 15:53
Yeah I have a slow break in process. I soak the reeds for 5 minutes each day for 5 days before playing them.
When I do play them they get 15 minutes, every second day for 5 plays each.
Given that the humidity here is a bit higher than that in a reed case with a 53% RH pack, I dont think my reeds are drying too quickly...
Just checked, humidity is 73% and as it has cooled off a fair bit, only 24C.
Do those humidity packs absorb moisture? How do they work?
h
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2014-08-16 16:58
Check my website and reed my reed pages, especially breaking in and controling warping. I've been a professional player for over 50 years and once I learned how to control warping, about 30-35 years ago, I've never, and I mean NEVER, had a single reed warp, period. Your first mistake is soaking the reed for 5 minutes and you probably soak the entire reed. As I explain, you should never let the bottom half with the bark ever get wet. That will help prevent warping and taking the other steps I describe will prevent it. Before I used the Rico Vitalizer packs, which I keep in an air tight freezer bag, I used to use a different method that was not as easy to control. The other thing I write about is to never ever let your reed stay outside of the air tight bag for more than just a minute or so while you pick out the reed to use so they don't dry to the humidity in the air once their broker in. What makes a reed warp is going wet to dry. Any piece of wood that gets wet and goes to very dry will soon begin to warp. Any type of wood at all. If you have any questions about my article or what I do contact me on facebook or my e-mail and I'll be happy to help you. I'm not bragging, I've never had a clarinet reed warp in that time. I have had a "few" bass reeds warp because they're so much bigger but very few at that. Humidity control is the answer. Not keeping them wet but controlled the humidity. Not letting them go from very wet very dry, and as I said, never letting the strong portion of the reed get wet in the first place.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-08-16 17:14
Ed, I agree with you about not wetting the butt end of the red. I only wet the vamp, never the butt end. Mostly because there doesn't seem to be a need for the part with bark on it to be wet - it can't be made more flexible in the process.
But, you know, I'm sure, that you're butting straight up against other players, including Ben Armato, (a well-experienced player) who insisted you should never soak the vamp directly, that you should put the butt end in water and let the water wick up into the vamp (I could never make this work - the vamp never seemed to get wet enough to play on).
Just sayin'....
Karl
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-08-16 22:33
DavidBlumberg wrote:
> I love Ben's Reed Wizard, but he's wrong on the wet butt thing.
>
> Opinions vary
>
>
> Why soak the hell out of a reed???
>
Well, I couldn't make it work, either, but he was certainly successful doing it that way. And I've read the same thing in other places, but I can't remember where. My only point was that I'm not sure how much wetting the butt end causes warped reeds. I wet only the vamp end, but for other reasons.
That said, I *can* imagine that heavily soaking the reed beyond what's needed to make it playable (IMO soaking the whole reed for as long as 5 minutes does that) could contribute to warping. The more water needs to evaporate from the reed, the more opportunity there is for warping to develop, and the internal pressure on the cell walls of so much absorption might (I'm imagining here) very well cause everything to expand but especially the less dense areas of the reed. If the result is indeed uneven swelling, that kind of heavy soaking could at least cause real changes in the way it vibrates after it's dried out.
Bottom line is I agree that a 5-minute full soak is probably about 4-3/4 minutes too long, but dried properly (yes, flat side up) , a minimally soaked reed shouldn't warp no matter how fully immersed it is.
To Jonathan (the OP): whatever is causing your reeds to warp, I'm certain it isn't drying them flat side up. In that position the reed has its best opportunity to dry evenly from both the front and back sides. Putting it flat side down limits evaporation to the cut vamp area and the thin edges while keeping moisture from evaporating from the back. This uneven drying can easily cause warping unless you keep your reeds in a humidity-controlled holder. But if you're constantly working in 60+ degree relative humidity, I wouldn't try to guess what may be happening as your reeds approach being dry (do they ever truly dry out at that RH?).
Karl
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2014-08-17 01:50
I remember when I was using cane reeds all the time before those 'you beaut' synthetic Forestones came along, I was having warped reeds also. That is, the thinnest part of the reed (tip) was warping. This was caused , as was noted by Ed Palanker, cane (wood) going from wet to very dry.
My solution was getting one of those plastic Vito or Vandoran plastic reed holders , the ones which hold four reeds and the elastic bands. The tip of the reed slides into a low (clamp) section of the holder, preventing the reed warping whilst drying out.
The best version of such a reed holder was the Aluminium one made by La Vox Corporation ( 'Reed Guard') No elastic bands but it also holds four reeds and has Aluminium 'rockers' where you slide the reed tip into. This metal version held the reed tips even more tightly than the plastic ones. As the reed dries out, it's impossible for the tip to warp.
I still have the two plastic holders (Vito and Vandoran) and the La Vox.
I never soaked my cane reeds very much anyway, and more often than not, just soaked the tip in my mouth whilst putting the Clarinet together. That's all that's needed to make the reed pliable enough to flex easily.
I never immersed the entire reed in water, that's just asking for all kinds of bothersome trouble including having the back of the reed swell very slightly into the 'window' part of the mouthpiece. I've seen cane reeds like this , and you could actually move your finger over the back of the reed and feel the swollen area. It's actually and imprint of the mouthpiece 'window'.
BJV
"The Clarinet is not a horn"
Skyfacer
Post Edited (2014-08-17 07:02)
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2014-08-17 02:03
Take that last comment of mine with a very large 'grain of salt'.
The slight swelling of the back of a cane reed directly below the window area of the mouthpiece is more likely caused by other factors. Constant use for example. And cane reeds get very wet whilst playing anyway. If a cane reed has a slightly swollen area like that it means you'd have to positioned the reed on the mouthpiece EXACTLY the same way every time. And of course it's easily rectified by 'flat lapping' the back of the reed on very fine emery paper on plate glass. (avoiding the tip area)
BJV
"The Oboe is not a horn"
Skyfacer
Post Edited (2014-08-17 02:04)
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Author: Johnny Galaga
Date: 2014-08-17 05:36
With the way Vandoren reeds in the box are now each individually wrapped, I seem to notice the way a reed feels and plays the moment you unwrap it and try it out is different than how it feels the next day after it's been unwrapped for a while. That's why when I'm going through a new box of Vandoren's, I don't even bother judging the reeds right away. I'll play each reed for like 2-3 minutes and then wait until the next day before messing with the sandpaper. The next day, I'll play 'em again and make any adjustments with sandpaper. This is here in Florida, U. S., which is known for high humidity.
Bottom line, I think you just have to play the reed and try it out. Whether it's or new, warped or not, if it plays good then just enjoy it. There's plenty of times I've played on a reed that looks warped but it'll play great. To that I say, so what if it's warped?
Post Edited (2014-08-17 05:40)
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-08-17 09:07
Ditto on "not soaking the butt end" of a reed. I've have a lot less problems by only "soaking" the vibrating part of the reed, and only for about 5-10 seconds at a time and only (at least when possible) in lukewarm tap water.
When breaking in reeds at home, I always wet with water, never soaking in my mouth. When playing in a rehearsal or concert, I try to have a little pill bottle of water at my side.
Initial soaking with plain water will dilute additional moisture provided by saliva during playing, reducing it's digestive effects, and making the reed last longer.
As far as warping, if normal balancing adjustments don't seem to be satisfactory, I may sand the flat side of the reed in a figure-8 pattern lightly on 800 grit sandpaper. Test it again and see if it helps, if not, sit the reed aside and maybe try it again in a few days ... I don't like to mess with the flat side of the reed ... Some warped reeds may play good ... it depends on how and where it is warped and how the warp interfaces with the MP table.
I don't try to seal the pores of the cut portions of the reeds. It seems that this thins the sound ... Heresy?!
Since I lost my reed cutter, I can't clip the tip, but this had limited success in the past.
Some recommend, especially when hand making reeds, soaking the blanks in your saliva, repeatedly and during the cutting process. Better results would be realized by using water?
Also, the notion of brushing teeth and rinsing mouths before playing seems good ... it may reduce blowing food particles into the MP, especially jamming bits between the reed and MP facing. Gross!
I spend a fraction of the time on reed rituals nowadays than in years past ... could be that modern science is producing better products? Most time is spent in balancing left-right resistance, and this is checked, adjusted and re-adjusted throughout the breaking in process. Not more than 1-2 minutes are required per reed.
And, rinse your reeds after playing and dry them by rubbing lightly between the thumb and index finger. Then dry them for a little while, bark down, before returning them to a nice flat surface in your reed cases.
One guy's opinion ... your mileage may vary.
Tom
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2014-08-17 18:35
I can only say in answer to Bens theory that I haven't had a reed warp since I began doing what I do, over 35 years now, Never had a single reed warp by never allowing water to touch the butt of the reed and only soaking the front half of a reed for a few seconds at most and never allowing my reeds to sit out in a dry environment. My proof is in my experience not by reading someones else's ideas.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: mnhnhyouh
Date: 2014-08-18 05:07
I hope what I am about to say does not offend anyone.
I was a scientist, a fairly well published one. I now teach, and part of that teaching is about the difference between anecdote and science and how the plural of anecdote is not data.
So far I have only seen one piece of science on clarinet reeds
Anatomical Characteristics Affecting the Musical Performance of Clarinet Reeds
Made from Arundo donax L. (Gramineae)
PETER KOLESIK, ALAN MILLS and MARGARET SEDGLEY
Annals of Botany 81: 151±155, 1998
http://aob.oxfordjournals.org/content/81/1/151.full.pdf
Why has no science been done on treatment of reeds? It seems to me that there are many contradictory methods described as the "right" way to treat reeds to make them play better and to make them last longer, and that these treatment methods are amenable to the scientific method.
Science would require the following at a minimum:
A number of reeds assigned to each treatment method (at least 5 for each one).
Reeds assigned randomly to each treatment (not one box each)
Treatment methods to be tightly described and closely followed
The people judging the reeds should not know which treatment was done on which of the reeds they are judging.
Maybe something like ClarinetFest might be a good place to do this?
h
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-08-19 04:13
Sounds like a new scientific study is overdue ... evaluation of various reed rituals.
Distilling down my long-winded, overly-detailed post I would just say my system morphs a bit from time to time ... but since I use limited reed wetting (and mostly with plain water) and being careful how reeds are stored, warp is very,very rare. I don't even check for it anymore.
I've not had one warp problem in the last dozen boxes, and I now get 7-8 playable, good sounding reeds (with minor adjustments) out of 10. Much better than VD reeds of 30 years ago ... I used to get 1-2 out of 10 ...
Anyone remember the "hand selected" Vandorens that made debut in the 1980s?
Tom
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