 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-08-06 21:36
The first clarinet of the pair I tried was the Bb. I was instantly taken aback by the tendency for the sound to choke off in the throat notes above a mezzo forte. I have a similar experience with the Selmer Signature and the Leblanc Concerto, but since there is mention of this horn being more akin to the Privilege, I was quite disappointed.
Then came going up a scale. Starting from the fourth line "D" onward the pitch starts to drop. This is really noticable moving from the "G" sitting on the staff to the second ledger line "C." The "C" is resoundingly flat....no question. The altissimo follows suit.
This is a VERY BIG problem. I am playing on a Vandoren Masters CL4 which is a sharp mouthpiece. If I were to have used a 13 Series or Gennusa Excellente, there would have been no tuning these notes at all. The only concession I am willing to make is that this clarinet only came with the longer 66.5mm barrel rather than also having the 65.5mm. It may have made a bit of difference (maybe) in the tuning, but NOT the response in the throat notes.
I almost did not try the "A" which would have been a mistake. The "A" clarinet not only had a very responsive throat register, it was also quite free blowing for an "A." The other interesting factor here is that it sounded more "mellow," without having the associated resistance.
The tuning of the "A" was also in line with a good clarinet, quite even and none of the objectional qualities of the "Bb."
So I am left bumfuzzled. Was this "Bb" just a bad apple? Does this point to constancy problems from one to another (do you have to try 10 different ones to find one good one)?
Selmer is 'lumping' the Presence and Privilege into the same marketing spin. So are the new Privileges also inconsistant? Has Selmer changed the acoustics of the Privilege along with the cosmetics?
The indicator that my worst fears may have come about, is the bad review of a Prililege we got recently from another poster recounting how ALL the altissimo notes where flat...........just like the Presence I just played!
hmmmmmmmm
......................Paul Aviles
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2014-08-06 22:07
I've heard that Rusinick has switched to a Selmer Presence for his A clarinet but not for his Bb. I got to play a Presence A clarinet and liked it, but the competition in the mid-level price range for clarinets is about to become fierce, with the most recent Yamaha CSG III as a contender (I tried both their Bb and A and loved them) and the soon to emerge Uebel Boehms, which offer the option of a very Germanic sound on a Boehm instrument.
Post Edited (2014-08-06 22:08)
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Author: CocoboloKid
Date: 2014-08-07 05:41
I had a somewhat different experience with the Presences I played last week. (Though I would imagine that they were set up to optimal levels by the Selmer techs for the festival), which leads me to believe that perhaps there may be some R13-esque consistency issues. I tried them with a Vandoren B40D, if that matters.
I will agree, however, that even though I liked the Bbs I tried quite a lot, I too generally liked the A clarinets more.
I must also confess that I preferred the old Privilege to the new one, but I seem to be in the minority on that.
The Uebels and the Yamaha CSGIII killed everything else I tried, though.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2014-08-07 09:11
>> Though I would imagine that they were set up to optimal levels by the Selmer techs for the festival <<
After going to Musikmesse and clarinet festivals several times, where Selmer had their own stands and sometimes their own repairer (all from the factory in France, not through dealers), I'd guess you have a very vivid imagination
BTW I thought the Presence was made specifically to spook people...
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-08-07 15:39
I don't want to preempt an answer from "Seabreeze," but for me the Germanic sound is "creamy," and outside of a Wurlitzer Reform Boehm (and as a player of Yamaha CSGs) I don't believe it is possible to achieve this sound on anything other than Oehler clarinets. The acoustic model is too 'species specific.'
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2014-08-07 19:16
I doubt that anyone can frame a definition of a Germanic sound in the precise way that one can be given for geometric figures. In fact, Wenzel Fuchs of the Berlin Philharmonic has famously said that the German sound "begins in the mind of the player." But the German sounds (plural is always better) are not mythical beasts like the Yeti or the Loch Ness monster. German sounds have actually been heard and sighted (as well as cited).
Begin with Michelle (Bloch) Zukovsky of the Los Angeles Philharmonic. She plays on a Wurlitzer Oehler system clarinet and a Wurlitzer German mouthpiece, and just about every clarinetist I have ever talked to says she sounds German (as well as uniquely like herself). Her tone is usually quite dark, covered, and, to use Paul's adjective, "creamy."
Years ago, when Zukovsky decided to switch from Buffet Boehm to Wurlitzer Oehler, it was undoubtedtly because she was struggling to produce German sound that Fuchs indicates "begins in the mind," waging a valiant but losing battle to force her Buffets to sound German. It was like trying to make a recalcitrant kid eat broccoli and spinach. She could get the sound she wanted from the German Oehlers without waging a perpetual battle against her clarinet.
Actually, American players have been waging a war against the Buffet R13 ever since it was adopted as the standard orchestral clarinet in the 1950s. It wasn't the R13 out of the box that symphony players liked, it was a rebored and rebarreled version turned out by Hans Moennig in Philadelphia, made to play more like a German clarinet that they were drawn to. Harold Wright used to say that he wanted to combine the French with the German sound. Close facings, hard reeds, and Moennig's alterations helped achieve this goal. Gigliotti said the same thing when he brought his Moennig-altered Buffet to Selmer as inspiration for the 10G, Gigliotti explicitly said that he wanted instruments that combined the French and German sounds. Since the R13 was already French enough, this alteration entailed making the instrument more German.
I would argue that for many (not all) American clarinetists, making the French Buffet sound more Germanic has been like the search for the Holy Grail. They are willing to go on pilgrimages and do penance to accomplish the goal. They do penance by buying an assortment of bubulous barrels made of exotic woods, usually expecting to increase resistance and "darken" (that is, Germanize) the tone. I have never heard a clarinetist say "I bought this cocobolo barrel to brighten my tone and sound more French."
Almost always, the motivation is to sound "darker," "more covered," "woodier," "more like a German clarinet." (Yes, mea culpa, I also enjoy playing around with barrels).
Enthusiasts for a more Germanic sound usually say they have gotten closer to achieving it on a Boehm instrument in the Selmer Recital and Signature models or the Yamaha CSG. It is more than folklore to assume that the "G" in the Yamaha model does stand for "German," just as the"D" in the darker, creamier models of Vandoren mouthpiece does. Backun's Moba clarinets with their tendency to produce a woodier tone draw on this same desire.
Observing all the trouble American clarinetists go to to make their French Boehms sound more like German instruments must be most amusing to the Germans. It would not require a genius level of inventiveness for one of the German manufacturers to say, "well they have tried reboring and rebarreling the French ones, and some French and Japanese companies have moved closer to the German bore; why don't we Germans just mass-produce what WE understand to be a German bore Boehm system clarinet that will sound (for lack of a better word) "Germanic" without any need to torture or accessorize it into that category.
If Uebel has done that, then I take my hat off to them.
My guess is that if you had 20 clarinetists hidden behind a screen play the new Uebels and then the standard R13, most pro clarinetists listening would find the Uebels to be the more Germanic sounding as each clarinetist took his/her turn. So the German sound doesn't ONLY begin in the mind, it also comes out of the clarinet tone holes and bell (maybe with hole and grommet added). Of course it is also possible that my guess is wrong.
In any event, what is being discussed now in another thread, "Buffet R13's Ringing Tone," is crucial. American clarinetists have been attracted for many decades to Buffets for the "ringing tone" they characteristically produce throughout their dynamic range. But the ringing tone alone did not satisfy them. They wanted to add a darkness they heard in the German clarinet. This desire works in the opposite direction as well. IF, for example, the new Uebel Boehms easily deliver the dark. covered German sound, but are lacking the ringing tone provided by Buffets, then players who adopt the Uebel may strive as mightily to alter that clarinet with bore modification, barrel changes, etc. to add the elusive ring to the German darkness.
Can both the ring and the darkness coexist in the same instrument? Perhaps that is the real puzzle to solve.
Post Edited (2017-08-25 06:34)
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2014-08-08 04:25
I wasn't particularly impressed with the Selmer Presence when I blew a few notes on it at clarinetfest. Certainly a few notes isn't something to make or break it, but if it strikes that bad a chord on a few notes, I'd rather play something I get instant enjoyment out of.
THe Buffet Crampon room impressed me the most. Most clarinets I picked up and played there played very well. And the the Buffet Divine was definitely amazing (musta been, as all the Bb's they brought were sold by the third day so I couldn't have fun playing on them anymore!)
Selmer presence? Not for me. I haven't played too many selmers, but if I had to put my own money into one, it'd be an older Selmer 10G.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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