 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-03-03 22:56
I thought I might "weigh-in" on the Lyrique Libertas B-flat clarinet ... with a few other thoughts ...
I am not an employee of Ridenour Clarinet Products, nor am I related to the family, a good friend or compensated for my comments to follow:
My background is a sporadically trained, 61-year old advanced player. I free-lanced for a long period, was a paid core member of an orchestra in southern Arkansas for 9 years and also played in several Community Orchestras and Bands and a semi-professional Wind Ensemble here in Little Rock. My original clarinet was a used Penzel-Mueller Super Brillante (my parents couldn’t afford a new Leblanc LL or Selmer Series 9*). Early training consisted of 4 lessons in the summer of the 6th grade. After High School, College and family consumed all my time and so playing was suspended until I was 27 years old. My next lessons started at age 28 and regretfully, have been intermittent. I did have some great teachers, though! My main instruments, after returning to playing, ran from an Evette E13 to Yamaha YCL62/65 (B-flat and A) and finally a set of Buffet R13s. I’ve also owned many other used, “pawn shop” and new student instruments and those were normally delegated for outdoor concerts or casual playing and later restored and sold to students. I’ve played mostly Vandoren reeds since Jr. High School. MPs have ran the entire range from cheap production to expensive hand-made. Currently, using Vandoren M30-lyre with Legere #3 to #3.25 regular cut.
I have eyed Tom Ridenour’s instruments on the internet for several years. I needed a spare instrument of good quality, so in March 2013 I ordered one of his Lyrique “student line” instruments. It has an amazing sound, even scales, and smooth-blowing resistance from note to note and register to register.
I had an opportunity to sell my 17-year Buffet R13 B-flat for more what I paid for it, and I liked my "student" Lyrique better. So, it was a no-brainer to pass it on to a grateful student. He got my lucky "pick of the litter" instrument ... a nice clarinet.
Since I didn’t have the opportunity to do orchestra work anymore, and needed a spare instrument, and only a B-flat, I pondered ordering a Ridenour Lyrique 576BC. As I was contacting Ted Ridenour to place my order, I became aware of the Lyrique Libertas.
I’ve had mine for a week, and it is great!
Positive features: excellent scale … very uniform blowing resistance … resonance with warmth … POWERFUL, when called upon … fast response … key-work feel and fit very good … perfectly adjusted … tight, no leaks … locked key posts (very unusual on a non-wood instrument) … inline trill keys have less tendency to collect water … machining of body, tone holes and bore very well done … won’t crack or significantly change acoustically with time and temperature… affordable by anyone, using Ridenour’s easy payment plan
…
Negative features: while the keys fit perfectly and the plating is superb, it appears that a few keys needed a little more polishing in the tumbler before they were plated …
It’s worth mentioning that the key cosmetics on my much more expensive wood instruments were microscopically better, but the factory hid many terrible wood defects (open grain, checks) under the more populated key areas. I was shocked when I removed some of the hardware and saw this. In addition, the tone holes and bore exhibited many burrs and chips that surely detracted from the acoustical performance. You could cut/trim/buff some of these out, but at the same time changing the acoustical design from original specifications. I cringe when I see the internet video of one manufacturer, hand-polishing the bore in an unscientific way. I’m sure some bores are buffed out of specification!
In other words, some manufacturers are more concerned with key cosmetics than precision where it really counts. Remember the old saying: “An ounce of image is worth a pound of performance.”
I did make one minor adjustment on my Lyrique Libertas: The LH A-flat/E-flat key … I reduced the open pad height a bit by carefully bending a little shaft that the bumper cork touches. It didn't bend easily, so the keys seem to be very strong. There will be other small personal adjustments as I get accustomed to the instrument.
I love the Lyrique Libertas clarinet because it almost truly plays itself. For me, Ridenour's instruments are a huge upgrade over my previous axes, and have rekindled fresh interest in playing clarinet for enjoyment and practicing to improve my skills. They give an old man like me, a head start over much better trained and more talented players. There may be equivalent playing clarinets made by others somewhere in the world, but I refuse to spend additional money or subject myself to the worries of wood.
I’d like to see Tom Ridenour “thumb his nose” at the mainstream material paradigm and divorce himself from the notion of the “wood look” by not adding black pigment to the hard rubber formulation and not brushing the material to simulate grain.
Since there is so much current interest in expensive “A grade” vintage hard rubber for mouthpieces, what’s good for the MP has to be good for the entire instrument. (Don’t you agree?) You can imagine Buffet making a Festival clarinet entirely in "A grade" hard rubber and touting the advantages. And, they would have a better instrument, in terms of sound and material stability, and practically overnight. To give examples of wood issues: Buffet is using Greenline inserts in some of the tone holes of top models to discourage cracking, and the new intermediate Buffet E12F actually has painted wood to protect it an improve it's appearance. Seems the best logical step would be a better material of which to make clarinet bodies. Is 100% Greenline instruments the answer? Well, I suspect that the composite material using pulverized Blackwood, plastics and epoxy resin is so dissimilar to "real" solid wood that a close match in sound between the two materials is unlikely.
IMHO, Greenline material compared to solid wood is like comparing meatloaf to steak. Would you pay 60 bucks for a slice of meatloaf? Does meatloaf resemble a fine cut of steak? No, but some people may insist that meatloaf tastes as good, and will pay top price. I think that’s a good analogy of “wood lunacy".
In closing, a rose-gold plating option on the Libertas keys would be extra cool!
So, there you have it, my 3 1/2 cents worth. I am sure my comments will draw some fire!
Tom
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-03-04 01:55
Quote: "Seems the best logical step would be a better material of which to make clarinet bodies. Is 100% Greenline instruments the answer? Well, I suspect that the composite material using pulverized Blackwood, plastics and epoxy resin is so dissimilar to "real" solid wood that a close match in sound between the two materials is unlikely."
Totally confused. Why wouldn't that same reasoning apply to a hard rubber clarinet?
bruno>
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-03-03 21:16
Before we walk too far down the material road I would stress that it is the detailing of the dimensions of the bore and tone holes (size, placement, undercutting, lack of undercutting) and all the final hand finishing that makes a more expensive instrument .......expensive.
So yes, if you put $5000 per clarinet work into a clarinet made of hard rubber, you should have a pretty good clarinet. I don't believe that you can 'crank out' a top line clarinet, material not withstanding.
Now, I do find that when you compare R13s side by side of wood vs Greenline (one right after the other) the Greenline seems a bit less resonant or rather capable of as much projection. Is it a difference that would affect performance? Probably not, but if you are after "state-of-the-art," I would still subtly prefer the wood instrument option.
The point of Greenline in the first place is that, like it or not, this WON'T be an option at some point in our futures (perhaps even sooner than later).
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: Tom Ridenour
Date: 2014-03-04 02:44
With all due respect, having been apart of the process of making clarinets by major manufacturers the material cost of producing a clarinet and the price you pay are not even close to one another. Business model has a far far greater affect on the price of any instrument you purchase.
Having worked at a major manufacturer Tom can say with 100% certainty that the majority, in many cases the vast majority, of the price you pay when you buy a clarinet is tied not to material costs but rather the business model the clarinets are produced under. This is not speculation; Tom knows this process from the inside and the fact is players are asked to pay for a litany of things that add only cost to the product without improving quality!
Tom Ridenour
Ridenour Clarinet Products,
rclarinetproducts.com
sales@ridenourclarinetproducts.com
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-03-04 06:27
Not sure I understand your question ... now we are both confused!
I think what you mean is why don't the guys making hard rubber instruments consider an improved something else? A good point.
As far as reducing costs, injection molded plastic bodies are cheaper. As far as improving the very subjective area of tone, I believe wood and many of the then available non-wood materials were evaluated and compared by "blinded" listening panels and players. Hard rubber often won ... even over various woods.
I was talking to Charlie Bay on the phone one day (1999) and he also looked askance at wood being the best manufacturing choice or possessing the best sound. He was gonna take some pieces of Delrin plastic to the Buffet factory and see if they could make a clarinet out of it ... I am sure it would take adjustments in tooling to do such a thing. Charlie also made barrels out of Delrin, I think ...
I believe Greenline material sells because they can advertise that it's mostly wood; albeit wood ground to the consistency of talcum powder and mixed with other ingredients. (meatloaf)
I understand metal clarinets have had considerable success.
I am afraid that we are just about out of quality wood ... I saw a documentary years ago that showed an exploding clarinet bell while turning it down on a lathe. The remarks was that the pollution from the burning of the rain forest was damaging the African Blackwood trees.
So, for now, I suspect that hard rubber may be the best (and most easily available) material for the task at hand.
Of course, I am not a world class clarinetist or a materials scientist, so I welcome more viewpoints on this matter.
.
I'd suggest just trying a Lyrique Libertas instrument and form your own opinion. I'd like to see reviews by more musicians.
Tom
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Author: ruben
Date: 2014-03-04 11:45
I would be interested to know what Tom Ridenour thinks of delrin plastic as opposed to hard rubber. I seem to recall that I heard a Lorée oboe made of this material and it sounded very good.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-03-04 18:55
I don't know the answer ... I think I've seen Delrin options on clarinets from a small, order driven, manufacturer ...
As I understand it, hard rubber is a "low tech" but amazing material. Delrin would probably be more intrinsically expensive, but could be injection molded into semi-finished blanks that could be machined to the desired final precision.
I also think Delrin is used inside the human body for some applications ...?
I do know that for decades, hard rubber was used as the containers for automobile batteries. You can imagine a material that was filled with battery acid, heavy lead plates, and required to withstand the extreme temperatures and vibration under the hood of a car! Later (mostly to reduce weight, I think) battery manufacturers have gone to plastics, of some sort ...
Of course, no material will correct poor acoustical design and manufacturing flaws ... and I think that is about 90% of the challenge. However you'd like to use materials that machine well, are stable over time and temperature and resist the body's saliva trying to digest it.
Oh. one more thing ... there is some empirical data suggesting that if you could leave out the dye in hard rubber, which would result in an ivory color, the "tone" is improved a bit. I know that is down the subjective road and might be "milking a mouse", but it is something to ponder. Would you buy a professional clarinet that is not black?
Tom
Tom
Post Edited (2014-04-15 20:59)
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2014-03-04 21:07
TomS said, "Would you buy a clarinet that is not black?
To answer that, let's look at some people who have (bought and played non-black-colored clarinets):
Charles Neidich and Shirley Brill regularly pose with and perform, live and on recordings, on prestigious Schwenk & Seggelke boxwood clarinets that are decidedly light colored in appearance. Jose Franch Ballester tours the world as a soloist on reddish-colored cocobolo clarnets made by Backun. Eddie Daniels plays cocobolo regularly.
Well-known orchestral players Ricardo Morales (Philadelphia), Carey Bell (San Francisco) and Jessia Phillips (Metropolitan Opera) have been using reddish cocobolos for some time now.
With these precedents (and there are many more such worldwide), the color prejudice in clarinets should be a thing of the past. The remaining prejudice to overcome is the one against non-wood clarinets. Ridenour is a trailblazer in overcoming that.
The real question is, when will Buffet, Selmer, Yamaha, Eaton, Rossi, Backun,
Wurlitzer, Uebel, Hammerschmidt, etc. start offering their own professional clarinets in rubber (and possibly Delrin and other promising materials?)
Post Edited (2014-03-04 20:26)
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-03-04 23:37
Well, you are correct.
I shouldn't have said "black" ... obviously, a lot of pro instruments are not black ...
I really meant to say: Would you play a professional clarinet that is ivory colored?
Just conducting a survey ...
Tom
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Author: muppie
Date: 2014-03-05 02:05
TomS, I'm curious, how's the tuning with your Lyrique Libertas? Have you tried checking it with a tuner and also playing along with other clarinets?
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-03-05 09:37
Yes and no.
I've spent .quite a while in front of an old Korg tuner and the intonation is very good ... much better than a very good Buffet R13 and somewhat better than my Lyrique Speranza. My old Selmer sounds like a million dollars in some spots but the tuning curve looks like a profile of the Rocky Mountains.
Worst notes on instrument is very slightly flat altissimo E-flat (standard and chromatic fingering) and of course the notorious standard fingered F. The "long" F is OK as is the standard G. The E is perfect. Other than those two mentioned notes, the tuning is mostly spot on. The low F is remarkably good for an instrument with no extra vents. The two slightly flat notes can be brought to pitch by more embouchure pressure or throwing an extra key open ... not a serious problem. Might be some tweaks that will help, as well.
My M30-lyre is not the best in the highest register ... I may try an M15. If you are playing in a concert band, reading orchestra transcriptions, you really need a setup that dances well on the top notes ...
I have some ensemble playing coming up in a couple of days ... I'll know more then ... the Speranza was an immediate improvement in ensembles and I expect the Libertas to perform in a similar or better manner.
I'll know more this weekend.
Tom
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Author: muppie
Date: 2014-03-05 09:45
I'm keen to know! I found that my Lyrique's tuning is all over the place, some notes way sharp, some notes way flat. Using the same mouthpiece + reed on E12F, I can get almost perfect tuning across the board without even trying. I'm only testing in the chalumeau and clarion registers. At this point I suspect it's my technique / inexperience that's causing this, although I can't explain why it's effortless to be in tune using my E12F.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2014-03-05 14:09
Dear Tom S
I'm intrigued by delerin. Apparently it can be tooled like wood (as opposed to being moulded), so maybe the company I work for could make an experimental instrument. I seem to recall it is rather dense, heavy material. As I said, Lorée makes-or has made- oboes out of this. I'll have to try to find somebody that has one and see what he or she sounds like. Ornette Coleman plays/played on a white alto saxophone. I imagine it was made of delerin. Many thanks for your information about Tom's new instrument! If there's anybody I trust, it is Tom Ridenour.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2014-03-05 14:23
I've got barrels made from delrin by both Steven Fox and Guy Chadash.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2014-03-05 11:22
"At this point I suspect it's my technique / inexperience that's causing this, although I can't explain why it's effortless to be in tune using my E12F."
Not every mouthpiece works well with every instrument. It may well be that your mouthpiece is better suited to the E12 than to the Lyrique. Try a different mouthpiece and compare results, otherwise your using a sample size of 1, which is notoriously unreliable.:-)
Tony F.
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-03-05 17:48
That is a bit weird ....
Might be your MP ... but more likely your embouchure, wind and/or voicing ... I suspect the E12F and Libertas are very different clarinets ... if you have subconsciously adjusted to the E12s tuning, what you may be experiencing could be normal until you just relax and don't humor or adjust for each pitch on the Libertas.
This was hard for me to do after decades of constantly adjusting for each note on other makes and models. I find that the more I refined my static embouchure, voicing and airstream, the better my Lyrique Speranza performed in regards to pitch. The Libertas is even better.
I had a teacher, Paul Orton (now deceased) that studied with Leon Russianoff, and one of the things Leon insisted on was a setup that had considerable flexibility. When I asked my teacher why, Paul replied "Every note's different". Well, with a good instrument, that's not true so much anymore.
Hopefully someone with more knowledge will post some help on this ... I am not an expert on this matter.
Tom
Post Edited (2014-04-15 21:02)
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-03-05 13:21
I've discovered that the MP has a decided effect on whether my R13 plays in tune with itself. MPs with larger chambers (e.g. Vandoren 11-dot-6, and B45-dot) are much easier to play in tune. Firmer reeds also play a part.
Playing a clarinet in tune is something WE do, and we shouldn't assume that our clarinet will play in tune because of its design or the material it's made from, and that all we have to do is blow.
bruno>
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Author: MartyMagnini
Date: 2014-03-05 20:35
Bruno,
I completely agree with you that playing in tune is up to us (after all - there is no such thing as an "in tune" note - is it the root of the chord, or the third? They would be played differently). BUT I would add that it is a BAD idea to purchase a clarinet that sounds lovely if it is not REALLY in tune with itself. You can never satisfactorily overcome bad tuning, even if you fall in love with the sound of a particular instrument.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2014-03-05 18:12
Greetings everyone,
Tom and Ted Ridenour are obviously taking special interest in the comments about their new clarinet, the Libertas.
After they read the comments above about how it is up to the player to make a clarinet play in tune, I received a PM from Ted asking me to relay their personal comments concerning this issue and I also received written permission to post a personal review of the Libertas (now in public domain on Facebook) from a professional clarinetist named Josh Jonsson who has only had his Libertas for one week.
From Ted & Tom Ridenour: Concerning segments from the above 2 responses: "the player has to play in tune" and "clarinets aren't in tune players play in tune"......"this is of course correct on the face of it but some clarinets require far more work than others."
Now, as to Josh Jonsson's Libertas review...
[ Let us link to it rather than re-quote it ... If people have personal stories they're welcome here, but it gets out of hand when we're getting reprints. No "re-tweeting" ...
https://www.facebook.com/wm.ridenour
Mark C. ]
Disclaimer: As NBeaty stated in a response recently, "I don't get nothing for mentioning anybody's name". Same for me.
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-03-05 18:37
Not to take anything away from the clarinet itself, but I'm sure that there is a lot of "Josh" in that accurate tuning, and given Josh's evident skill (he plays shows), it's probably automatic by now as it is for most of us.
b>
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2014-03-05 23:50
Hi Bruno, would you say the same thing about TomS?
IMHO, I believe "muppie" is having so many problems because he's relatively new to the clarinet and perhaps still needs to learn how to form a correct embouchure. (Just my opinion, muppie, no offense intended.)
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Author: Tom Ridenour
Date: 2014-03-05 23:55
I am quite certain Josh, being a very skilled player, could play many clarinets in tune. The issue is how much work is required by the player to play the clarinet in tune....that's what his statement addresses;
"There is literally nothing I have to do in terms of manipulating my embouchure to get it to speak, and to speak in tune".
Ridenour Clarinet Products,
rclarinetproducts.com
sales@ridenourclarinetproducts.com
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-03-06 00:55
My R13 and and a plain M13 worked very well ... didn't play with a lot of power, but had nice sound and very controlled ...
Tom
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Author: Biology
Date: 2014-03-06 14:09
greetings,
Dan Shusta, I do not have facebook and there for cannot access Josh's review if this is the address:
https://www.facebook.com/wm.ridenour
could you repost it here?
World Peace.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2014-03-06 18:26
Biology, I don't have a facebook account either!
Please send me a PM and I'll do what I can to help you.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2014-03-06 18:29
Dan Shusta wrote:
> Biology, I don't have a facebook account either!
>
> Please send me a PM and I'll do what I can to help you.
Or I'm sure Ted or Tom would be more than happy to supply the gory details ...
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Author: Tom Ridenour
Date: 2014-03-07 01:04
I guess I misunderstood your comment (I had no problem with the review being linked).....assuming nothing was meant, I apologize.
Ted Ridenour
Ridenour Clarinet Products,
rclarinetproducts.com
sales@ridenourclarinetproducts.com
Post Edited (2014-03-07 01:45)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2014-03-07 01:54
Tom - there was no inference in my comment that anyone was paid, and there was no suppression or "attack". I am clueless as to why you would say that.
ALL long quotes on the BBoard that have available links are removed and links to the original source provided - I;'m sure you have seen that in the past. Why you think the policy doesn't apply to you? While one has to be a member of Facebook to see the review, the membership is free and people can use an alternate email address to become a member to see whatever reviews they like. That they choose not to become a member for any reason is not my problem - it doesn't change the fact that the review is easily available, and doesn't need to be repeated here.
As I previously remarked, someone who writes a long post praising or panning a product on this BBoard is fine - and I note that you've been more than happy in the past to mention or link to this BBoard. So much for suppression or attacks.
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-03-07 14:25
@Bruno
>Is 100% Greenline instruments the answer?
no, the answer is diamondwood
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-03-08 02:14
Hurrah! Yes, Diamondwood!
Petrified wood?
What's Diamondwood?
Tom
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-03-08 03:30
TomS wrote:
> Hurrah! Yes, Diamondwood!
>
> Petrified wood?
>
> What's Diamondwood?
>
basically modern PanAm propellerwood
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f153/diamondwood-628678/
It is (usually) birch veneers, laminated together and impregnated via a vacuum process with an epoxy resin. It is VERY hard, very strong, and very stable.
It works like (a very hard) wood, has a lot of the same tonal characteristics, but is stable like a composite.
and unlike "greenline" it is resilient to cracking
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-03-08 02:37
Cool!
Have woodwind instruments been constructed of this?
Sounds like highly enhanced Birch plywood! I've seen antique props hanging as conversation pieces in various places ... the material must last a good while.
I guess the possibilities are endless ...
Tom
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-03-08 18:41
I'm pretty sure that the Buffet green line instruments material is concocted with epoxy resin. It's the only logical choice.
B>
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2014-03-08 13:48
Greenline is epoxy and pulverised wood with some sort of filler, whereas the Diamondwood product is a laminated product, almost certainly with more inherent strength than Greenline. I've never understood why Buffet used pulverised grenadilla, pulverised bamboo would make a stronger product.
Tony F.
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-03-08 20:45
Buffet is in business to keep their doors open and hopefully make profit. They use grenadilla sawdust because that's what is available in their shop. And in plentiful quantity, I surmise.
I don't think it matters what wood they pulverize in terms of strength. Pulverize means to grind something into powder, at which point it is just filler with no inherent strength. Bamboo would behave similarly.
b>
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-03-09 04:08
Buffet has found better use for waste Grenadilla than burning it in ovens, to heat the factory, as Vandoren does with scrap reed material. I guess Vandoren could grind up reject reeds and make some sort of composite? If that's possible, we could recycle old reeds to make new ones! Turn in your old reeds, and help save the planet!
Gosh, that would extend to old clarinets also! Imagine taking your trusty old set of B&H 1010s to the Buffet plant and watch as they were stripped of keys and the wood pulverized and integrated into your personal Greenline mix and your old 1010's are reincarnated as a new pair of Toscas ...!
I wonder if Buffet grades the waste wood and throw some of it out, or burn it?
Backun has truck loads of waste ... I wonder if they have some application planned? You think the patent has ran out on Greenline material?
I believe the future is bright for arguably better, although less romantic, materials for woodwind instruments. IMHO, all things considered, hard rubber is the best choice, and probably sounds better than wood ... but who knows ... we may have a rubber tree killing virus someday or a sulfur shortage.
Tom
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-03-09 00:09
TomS wrote:
>Have woodwind instruments been constructed of this?
>
>Sounds like highly enhanced Birch plywood! I've seen antique props hanging
>as conversation pieces in various places ... the material must last a good
>while.
>
not sure for whole instrument but "new" Martin Freres sells barrels made out of it. They have a clip of it played on R-13 (alone with other ones to compare to), and it doesn't sound bad at all.
if that stuff is good enough for fretless bass fretboards, it should be strong. I'd guess it would be less brittle and more resilient to knock then greenline; after all plywood is stronger then particle board!
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-03-09 01:21
I hope my last post didn't sound sarcastic ... it wasn't meant to be. Maybe a just a little silly ...
I do believe in recycling stuff ... I just thought it might be interesting to grind up complete instruments and re-use the old wood. If the current harvest of Grenadilla is poor quality, old clarinets might come to life again, and as a better Greenline material, due to better/older, really well seasoned wood as the main component.
I understand that the Forestone reeds have cane fibers suspended in the material.
But, the solution has been found and is already in production. Hard rubber is a natural material, as natural as wood but without the drawbacks. It's also less complicated to produce than high-tech plastics.
I've owned several student hard rubber instruments (years ago) and I never felt the tone, as an average, was substandard to wood. Might have other issues, but the sound was fine. I was actually very surprised at my discovery, but swept it under my mental rug, until Tom Ridenour's research came to light.
I do think continuing research is important, much like forms of energy, let's use what works now as we expeditiously explore better alternatives. (Sun-Gas?)
Oh, and I agree that plywood is MUCH stronger than MDF or particle board. OSB can be used, in some cases, interchangeably with plywood (similar strength). As a matter of fact, I think plywood (depending on grade) is 4-7 times stiffer than particle board or MDF. Plywood is lighter too, about 60 lbs versus 80 (or more) lbs for a sheet of 3/4 inch material (4 feet x 8 feet).
Tom
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-03-09 07:07
not all of the ebonite (hard rubber) is natural, some of it made with synthetic latex. And it isn't w/o drawbacks it is brittle and could break into shreds if dropped. (have one with 30% missing bell tenon)
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-03-09 07:39
I think Tom Ridenour's hard rubber is not alloyed with other materials or fillers. As I understand, it's natural latex sap, sulfur (to harden it), and some pigmentation (to make it black).
The sulfur in the hard rubber is why Tom doesn't offer a horn with silver plated keys ... although gold plating would be OK.
There has been some interest is leaving out the black pigment, as it may slightly alter the sound of the material, and maybe not for the good. This might be "picking the fly specks out of the pepper", but we might see some experimental instruments eventually. Who knows, we might be playing ivory colored clarinets someday.
Yeah, hard rubber is probably not good for driving nails ... I'm sure it might break if seriously dropped or over stressed.
I had a friend that dropped her maple wooden bassoon on the stairs, and it broke in half! Oh by the way, I they have to line parts of the bassoon's innards with hard rubber to assure durability (I think this is right ... ??)
Tom
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Author: ruben
Date: 2014-03-09 13:01
With a composite material, you lose the grain and the fibers and I feel this has an effect on sound and harmonics. We make clarinets out of mopane-pretty much thje same density as ebony-but because the fibers and grain are very different, the two materials make for a very different tone. Composite materials make you use a bit of complexity, though I admit that possibly the only person that notices anything is the person playing.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: muppie
Date: 2014-03-09 14:24
TomS,
Have you done a tuning test on your Libertas? I am very curious. I used an app on my Android phone called gStrings.
Post Edited (2014-03-09 15:40)
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2014-03-09 14:17
TomS, I can't believe you mentioned recycling B&H 1010s into Buffets. That would be like crushing Rolls-Royces and using the recovered steel to build Renaults. Blasphemous!
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-03-09 17:00
Yeah, I agree ... maybe an old pair of French Stencil clarinets salvaged from table lamps purchased at a flea market.
Gosh, you know this might not be such a bad idea! I wonder if wood that has been played is unsuitable for this application?
In addition, do you think there will be a Greenline type material out of Cocobolo? Surely.
I'll bet other manufacturers don't discard their scrap wood. I am sure something is in the planning ... maybe waiting on patents to expire ...
Do we really need to make clarinets out of "meatloaf" type compromised, composite materials when we have Delrin, ABS and pure, unalloyed hard rubber?
Tom
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-03-09 18:29
I would think that Buffet considered several materials when they decided to make the Greenline. Frankly, I would much rather have a Greenline than a hard rubber or ABS, etc. clarinet no matter who made it. I'm sure that went into Buffet's decision. They couldn't very well get top-of-the-line Buffet prices for plastic or hard rubber.
I don't think that they are wedded to the materials in the Greenline, and will improve on the "formula" as time passes.
bruno>
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2014-03-10 02:23
"cyclopathic" wrote: "not all of the ebonite (hard rubber) is natural, some of it made with synthetic latex. And it isn't w/o drawbacks it is brittle and could break into shreds if dropped. (have one with 30% missing bell tenon)"
And,
"TomS" wrote: "Yeah, hard rubber is probably not good for driving nails ... I'm sure it might break if seriously dropped or over stressed."
I was curious about Tom Ridenour's rubber and whether they had experienced anything related to the above comments so I emailed Ted directly concerning this and received the following reply with permission to post:
"Ted said that in nine years they've had less than 5 instances of clarinets breaking due to being dropped. However they've had zero cases of clarinets cracking or the dimensions warping due to humidity or temperature changes. Any clarinet can break if dropped on a hard surface and it hits at a bad angle".
Disclaimer: I don't receive nothing for mentioning anybody's name.
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2014-03-10 00:48
Not following the thread, other than the title, but:
I've had a Libertas for about a month now. My other clarinets are Rossi French bore Bb and A and a 1961 R13. I've owned the original Opus Bb, and have played a lot on post-series-10 Selmers.
All play differently. All sound differently. All are great in their own ways.
That said, I think I'll be using the Libertas for chamber music from now on.
I don't care a lick about what it's made from; I just love the sound (my accompanist described it as "silvery") and how it blends so well with strings and piano, but without losing its character.
B.
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-03-10 06:47
I lusted after a Selmer Series 10 back in 1969-70. I thought it played like a dream! Leblanc LL was a little stuffy. Buffets were unknown in the High School setting during that time in central Arkansas. I think the switch to Buffet started in college in the late 1960s. Most were playing Selmer Series 9, 9* and Leblanc LLs. Usually, your college instructor could get you an R13 for $300.00!
I play mostly the Lyrique Speranza and Libertas, now.
It's all what works for you.
The Ridenour clarinets are easier for me to play, and I feel ashamed!
Many of the people that post comments here could play the Nielson Concerto on a 'duck call" and it would sound wonderful. But, if it were a Ridenour Duck Call, it might be easier to perform, and with a nicer sound.
Tom
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Author: xiao yu
Date: 2014-03-20 16:40
Hi tom,
As a same libertas user. I found intonation problem . That I have to pull out the middle 2 mm to make G2 in tune,or the lower joint notes will be too high.And High F3 regular finger is too low. And I don't find any undercutting tone hole in upper joint. What about yours?
=======================
Kenny clarinet studio from China.
Lyrique libertas, ridenour hw mp,legere euro cut reeds.
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-03-21 04:44
Tom Ridenour could best address your tuning concerns, but I will share my experience. Hope this is not too elementary ...
I use a Vandoren M30-lyre with Legere regular cut 3 to 3.25 reeds and I use the long barrel supplied with the instrument.
I often do pull the center joint perhaps a 1 mm or so after the instrument is well warmed up, in a comfortable room.
I set my Korg AT-12 tuner for A=441. Be sure to swab out after you warm up and before you check your tuning. Be certain that no water had collected in the tone holes. Also, check your tuner against a good standard occasionally, they can go out of calibration ...
When I test a note for tuning, I close my eyes and play the note in some musical phrase or context ... sometimes with the open G, I play a slurred D-major scale, stopping on the open G, opening my eyes and observing my tuning on the Korg. (Be sure to finger the note as you would normally ... most people play the throat G with the RH fingers covering the tone holes)
I adjust my open G by pulling (or pushing) the barrel, not by adjusting anything else. I check my other throat tones as well. (The throat A and G# tuning can usually be mechanically adjusted with pad height, if they are not to your liking ...)
Then I check my clarion G (G2) and perhaps pull at the center joint. I test clarion C and it is usually right on the money. I might pull at the bell a little if the long clarion B is sharp and check the low E.
I think leaving the bell pulled slightly has an interesting positive effect, perhaps like the "voicing ring" found on some bells.
Clarion G on the Libertas might be designed very slightly sharp with everything pushed in all the way (and the horn well warmed up) to facilitate this pull with less problems. (tuning is all about compromise, as we are all aware!).
If the horn was perfectly in tune when warmed up, and with everything pushed all the way, what would you do if you hadn't had time to warm up or the ambient temperature was cold? I've played a lot of outdoor (and some indoor) concerts where it was chilly!
I try to keep the static position my fingers low, light and sneaky over the tone holes to improve technique. About 3/8" to 1/2" high. The low static or resting finger position of the RH also lowers the pitch slightly of G2 .
.
The altissimo F is normally slightly flat in respect to it's neighborhood notes (on all horns). Fingering a "long" F or using the RH sliver key will bring the pitch up. You could also use a little more embouchure pressure (no jaw biting!), although I've really gotten away from this ... There may be better fingerings for the high F that I don't know about or use ...
If you have been playing something with a really dissimilar design, you may be well acclimated to it and automatically adjusting your embouchure or voicing to bring some of the pitches in tune. Not necessary now. The Libertas is like a fine car with a good tires and a well aligned front end ... if you let go of the steering wheel on level pavement, the car should go straight down the road. But, it has speed and responsiveness to take you comfortably and safely anywhere at your slightest command.
The ability to pull the center joint is a good feature. If you were playing E-flat or some expensive one-piece B-flat/A instruments, you would miss this
and I think you would find tuning more of a compromise.
Also, check your tuning with a few different MPs ... you may have one that just doesn't play nicely with the Libertas.
As far as tone hole undercutting/overcutting, I don't know if that is something this is necessary for every tone hole. My understanding is that for some clarinet bore specifications, this was done to fix other issues. Maybe Tom Ridenour can share some info without giving away secrets.
Send Ted Ridenour an email and perhaps Tom will relay some advice. He does have a video on how to tune your instrument, I think ... not altering tone holes, just how to pull joints.
I am not an expert on this, just a loving fan of music, particularly the clarinet.
This might be a good new thread: How do you tune your horn?
I have other instruments as well, and they all have nice features. But I've found the Lyrique Libertas with considerably better intonation.
Come one new Libertas owners, check in! Lets hear how you are doing! Any other tuning issues?
Tom
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Author: GaryH
Date: 2014-03-21 05:14
Xiaoyu, are you saying that the intonation on this clarinet is not good? I thought that the perfect intonation was what made these clarinets so desirable. I don't suppose that the tone holes have to be undercut, but I'm surprised that they're not.
If it plays, tunes and sounds at least as well as a R13 at less than half the cost it should be worth having. When things settle down here to where I can actually spend some quality practice time I'll order one to try out. The only thing that concerns me about this instrument is the keywork. Maybe that's been improved.
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Author: Tom Ridenour
Date: 2014-03-21 06:03
In regards to the issue of undercutting
"The technique of undercutting, also called "fraising," is used primarily to fine tune the 12ths on the clarinet. It is only needed if the 12ths are not in tune, and can only be used if the bottom 12th is flat in relation to the clarion corollary.
If the lower 12th is not flat undercutting will deteriorate the tuning and worsen, rather than better it. Tuning can be destroyed in a clarinet if someone doesn't know EXACTLY what he's doing and why.
Undercutting has two other effects: it can make the given tone blow slightly freer, and increase body resonance. All you clarinet scholars should know this as an academic fact, if you're read your Lee Gibson Clarinet Magazine articles.
Changing blowing resistance and creating more volume and flexibility sounds good, but these can be negatives if it causes the fraised tone hole to play and sound differently than the tone around it and respond differently because it doesn't match resistance in the context with the other tones.
The most efficient clarinets, most agile and dependable and even in response are clarinets with the least possible undercutting required to tune the first and second mode 12ths.
In short, undercutting is neither a vice nor a virtue in and of itself. It is simply a technique that renders varying effects when applied to adjust the first and second mode 12ths. Clarinets with different bore designs will require either greater or lesser degrees of undercutting. This MUST be discerned by the designer or someone with a intimate understanding of acoustic, and the meaning of any particular tone's response, tuning, tone color,flexibility, and resistance in relation to its corollary, and in relation to the context of all the other tones.
People who simply pick up under cutters without such knowledge and skill might as well have a license to destroy clarinets".
-Tom Ridenour
Ridenour Clarinet Products,
rclarinetproducts.com
sales@ridenourclarinetproducts.com
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-03-21 06:10
Key plating looks good ... no hinge tubing needs swedging. Tight fit everywhere.
Very quiet key action.
Alloy used for keys seem to be very strong!
These are brand new instruments, so I am sure microscopic details will improve. They are 99.45% there on QC (better than Ivory Soap).
Of course, I take away a lot of QC percentage points for wood that looks like it might split wide open any minute!
I had an intermediate (well known) clarinet shipped into a local music store about 5-6 years ago. I was interested in it because I liked the way this brand's keys fit my hands and I wanted a back up clarinet. The clarinet cost as much as a Lyrique 576, as I discovered later...
When I saw the instrument I didn't even play it. The wood looked like Yellow Pine, cut with a chainsaw and stained with shoe polish. The soldering and plating on the keys were constructed by vision impaired, intoxicated, first day on the job workers! I kid you not! I really felt sorry for the manufacturer... Gee whiz! A disgrace! (brand and model withheld for obvious reasons ...)
Buffet and Selmer Paris does a good job on key fit and finish. Seems to be some issues, according to some service technicians posts ... maybe just minor things, more a design glitch ... don't want anyone to lose their MOJO.
Some are gaining MOJO!
Once again, I don't work for or know anyone at Ridenour Clarinet Products, or paid or compensated to love or hate their stuff.
Tom
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-03-21 18:53
Tom S:
"Since there is so much current interest in expensive “A grade” vintage hard rubber for mouthpieces, what’s good for the MP has to be good for the entire instrument."
While hard rubber is an idea substance to make clarinets out of, and Ridenour does it superbly, people need to understand that a great clarinet, in all ways we consider one to be, can be made lots of different materials. It is the ability for that material to be worked by good craftsman that more makes it a great clarinet. Now, some materials are less suited for clarinet making than others. For example, wood, that’s right wood, as in Grenadilla, Rosewood and Boxwood, which have tendency to change dimensions based on temperature and humidity, but its the craftsman that's key.
===
(Not addressed to Tom S, but the collective)
Understand this people, Grenadilla wasn’t chosen as the lead material to make higher end clarinets out of so much because of its sound, but its ability to be machined at costs that allowed instrument makers to make money. Rosewood is considered to sound better, but it’s much harder to reliably machine (i.e. money).
“But everyone knows a wood clarinet, by in large sounds better than a plastic one.”
That’s a belief of the masses that’s fueled by a misunderstanding as to why that is so.
Wood sounds better because by in large because more craftsmanship went into making the wood clarinet, NOT because wood is necessarily a better material for making clarinets with. The plastic is likely more dimensionally stable, even though using it solves one environmental problem (the destruction of what remains of the African Blackwood population) by introducing another (the use of fossil fuels to make the plastic).
The rubber that creates Ridenour clarinets comes from tree sap. Trees are not destroyed or hurt through this extraction process.
“But all the great stars play wood.”
Do you mean the same ones who are paid for their endorsement? Ridenour doesn’t pay endorsers.
Look, rosewood sounds great. Go out and purchase a MoBa clarinet. Just include in the purchase price routine visits to British Columbia so Morrie Backun can ream the inside of your clarinet when it swells. (How does he plan on putting material back if/when it un-swells? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weGxlC0YI2I
Granted this was a Grenadilla clarinet, but all wood is subject to dimensional change. This is not a stab at Morrie Backun. This is to say that wood isn’t all it’s cracked (yes, that is a pun) up to be. Then again, if Ricardo Morales’ post reamed clarinet in the video shrinks and gets irrevocably out of tune, he just exchanges it for another. Can you do that? Me neither.)
Does anyone really think that Grenadilla is such an acoustically amazing sounding wood that you can pulverize it into a powder, mix fossil fuel derived epoxies with it, and still make wonderful sounding clarinets (i.e. Buffet’s Greenline)? Independent of your feeling about their Greenline products, to the extent that you like the product line, do you think is was the Grenadilla dust that made it special? If so, I have news for you: the earth is round, not flat. Even if Grenadilla was so acoustically special, which it’s not, it would be foolish to assume the when ground up, it necessarily maintained such properties.
Let’s give respect where respect is due. Buffet’s decision to use left over Grenadilla from the making of their classical clarinet product lines, for the creation of the Greenline is marketing (if not product) brilliance. They save money on raw materials for as long as they produce Grenadilla clarinets, the left over Grenadilla from this production process is essential free on the balance sheet of the Greenline's production costs, and they’ve managed to convey to the public, without saying so, that “Grenadilla magic” is still in their clarinets, and that they are conservation environmentalists, when in truth, there was nothing magical about the Grenadilla in the first place.
The green in greeline people may have at least as much to do with money as it does conservation. Buffet is interested in conservation because of the shortage they helped make in Grenadilla, not because they’ve become more environmentally friendly to prevent the irresponsible foresting of this wood in the first place. That's already happened.
Tell me, is the expoying process on their Greenline so expensive that it oversets the “free” grenadilla it receives from classic clarinet production such that that’s why the line is comparably priced to classic clarinets? If Buffet is so concerned with environmental causes, somebody should tell them that their epoxy comes from oil.
Oh—and Delrin was mentioned as a material. I suspect it too has origins in non-renewable natural resources, as likely does veneers and lamination products.
Am I saying Grenadilla is a bad raw material for clarinets (our exploitation of the tree from which it comes notwithstanding)? No. I’m saying it’s okay—even good if you are hell bent on making wood clarinets. But I’m also saying that hard rubber is probably better even if the African Blackwood tree was growing like a weed, when in fact it’s endangered.
How could Buffet switch to hard rubber and save face? It’s cheaper to source, meaning if Buffet is really loyal to its customers it would have to pass along, or at least share this cost savings with its customers, and since it’s been around for longer than use of the Boehm system, Buffet would find itself in a bind to explain why it continued all these years with Grenadilla (answer: it was the cheapest to source). What would people say if a cheaper better material for clarinet product was there all along?
By the way, I love my R13…even though I had to try plenty to find a good one…pre 1970’s, and I still always work a little to keep pitch. I defy you to find the consistency among Buffets that you do with Ridenours. I wonder how many Ridenour supporters would agree with the following:
“I fell I love with my R13. Then I tried a Ridenour and realized what love is.”
Yes, all clarinets require operator involvement on all things, not the least of which pitch. But some clarinets require less (Ridenour) pitch control than others.
By the way, when we’ve destroyed the African Blackwood tree, and Buffet can no longer manufacturer the classic line of Grenadilla clarinets, pray tell, from where will they source the Grenadilla dust to make the Greenline products?
(crickets churp here at the silence)
====
TomS: as it regards your thoughts on pigmenting sir, the people at Ridenour have enough trouble convincing people that the world is round with their hard rubber clarinets. I can’t imagine these clarinets differing in appearance by not making them black would help matters. But you could bet that if science showed it improved sound, that Tom Ridenour would be the first to be willing to try it.
Bruno: I don’t follow your first post—likely my bad. Hard rubber clarinets like Ridenours aren’t made from pulverized hard rubber—so I’m at a little loss regarding what you said or meant sir.
Paul: “I don't believe that you can 'crank out' a top line clarinet, material notwithstanding.”
I couldn’t agree more Paul with the following caveats: One is a heck of a lot more likely to product assembly line consistency working with hard rubber over wood.
Ridenour then takes these clarinets and hand finishes them himself. Talk about the best of both worlds.
=================
People, there’s a second myth in clarinet production: cost is linked to quality. This is only a minor correlation for large organizations like Buffet. That price you pay, at least in large clarinet makers, has far more to do with people at Buffet working in ways that aren’t closely linked to the quality of the clarinet: memo writers and meeting attendees.
Third myth: Stuff that’s made in the orient is bad. Fact: stuff that’s made in the orient is neither good nor bad. Ask an Asian manufacturer to make you a box of 10,000 promotional sunglasses at 20 cents a piece and suspect they won’t last a day. Conversely, throw appropriate sums of money at a Chinese satellite manufacturer and you can expect it will be air and communication worthy, and then some.
Fourth myth: Asian production takes from the jobs of more advanced countries. Okay, lets have the Ridenours produce their clarinets domestically and sell to you at their cost: $6,000.
I love all the people who talk of saving good domestic jobs who also shop in large discount stores to save money, buying foreign made products. Are you prepared to pay $375 for a toaster produced where you live?
The solution to the economic woes of advanced nations lies in advancing their population’s education and skill set. Make no mistake, I want my foreign produced products to be made in factories where workers have decent rights. But considering that hard rubber is sourced from trees in China, where on earth do you expect such clarinets to be made? At least cost savings the Ridenours achieve is shared with you.
Bruno: I would think that Buffet considered several materials when they decided to make the Greenline.
Bruno, if I may be tongue-in-cheek here, yes I do think Buffet considered several materials when they decided to make the Greenline. But those materials likely all fell under the title of “What can we add to the Grenadilla dust to make a clarinet.”
"Frankly, I would much rather have a Greenline than a hard rubber or ABS, etc. clarinet no matter who made it."
And I would also hope you’d want to have a Greenline based upon what you perceive to be Buffet’s skill at craftsmanship, not because the material used for the line is acoustically superior to other materials used for clarinet production. I’d suspect the cost you’d pay, and you’d pay a lot, would go far less into craftsmanship than you might hope.
I’d also suggest you try a Ridenour clarinet if you haven’t.
I have no affiliation whatsoever with anyone here. I do enjoy though the production of environmentally better products, especially when, like Ridenour’s they meet or surpass less environmentally sound solutions, as well as a person or institution that is a maverick for good reasons, again like Ridenour, and shouting at the top of my lungs that “the emperor has no clothes on,” as Tom Ridenour has done in white papers and Youtube videos, when in fact the emperor is nude, and others believe he’s wearing clothes, or are too afraid to say otherwise.
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2014-03-21 23:56
That was a great post, TPR, though like most "myth-busting" posts, it likely won't change anyone's mind. It was right on, though, and I, for one, appreciate it.
To personalize the sentence about "falling in love": I fell I love with my R13, and my Opus, and my Rossis. Then I tried a Ridenour and fell in love with it, too.
Each has its own characteristics; one is not "better" in all ways than the others. Each has it's own sound and feel, and so forth. But the Libertas is every bit as much of a high-end clarinet as the wood ones.
Not that this is apropos of your post, TPR, but I'm at the computer now, so I might as well share an experience regarding the Libertas.
When I first got the instrument, it took me about five minutes to figure out what was so different about playing it. Shortly I realized that the body radiation and vibration were not what I was used to as a player. I got over that quickly.
Soon after, I took the instrument to a rehearsal during which three excellent players (all of Buffets) played the Libertas for two minutes, then rejected it. "Didn't sound like wood." However, after listening to me play it over the course of several rehearsals, all of them recanted.
After trying it again, they realized that it was, indeed, the vibrations of the material they were reacting to, not what was actually coming out of the clarinet.
I think Tom should have a disclaimer on his marketing materials (and maybe on the clarinet?) pointing this out.
B.
Post Edited (2014-03-21 19:59)
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-03-22 00:45
Amazing! In one single post, Thatperfectreed solved myriad social, economic, and musical problems, including America's international balance of payments, Buffet Crampon's motivation for deciding on the materials they did, environmental issues, Chinese product quality issues, the reasons that grenadilla has been used to make clarinets, (. . . . not at all what you've been led to believe - it wasn't based on choosing the best material but on the greed of unprincipled Capitalists and the exploitation of Earth's scarce natural resources and the indigenous people who harvest the wood), and why we daren't paddle a canoe with our inferior wooden clarinets but why it would be fine with a rubber one, not to mention Buffet's Machiavellian utilization of our precious petroleum reserves to advance their nefarious goals.
This omniscient clarinet owner even knows Buffet's specific business model well enough to explain their reluctance to use rubber - seems it has to do with Buffet's unwillingness to sell their clarinets at a lower price and their hell-bent determination to employ paper-pushers and meeting attendees - a shameful renunciation of responsible business management if there ever was one.
I never realized how much of their selling price (and my buying price!!) goes into these wasteful earth-destroying practices. Rest assured that this repentant clarinet owner has seen the light. at the next opportunity I shall destroy my awful, out-of-tune wooden clarinet in an appropriate pyre and thereafter restrict my musical instrument purchases to earth-friendly materials.
Phew! I just got in under the wire! If I hadn't clicked on this thread . . . .
Bruno>
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Author: derek_b
Date: 2014-03-22 02:10
ThatPerfectReed: that was perfect post to read - pun intended. BTW, it may be of interest to the readers that Morrie Backun also makes a hard rubber clarinet: Backun Alpha, very similar to (now partly discontinued) Leblanc LBxxx series.
Bruno: attempts to ridicule other people opinions may work, if you support them by specifics, but if you do not, they make shallow reading.
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-03-21 23:21
Bruno, as always, I respect the right for people to have opinions that differ from mine.
Do note though, interesting enough, that the one point you skipped was helping me understand what you meant by your original post on this thread.
Debate: that's something I welcome, as its end result should be knowledge. Knowledge that I believe will only further my point. But good debate only comes from understanding each side's viewpoint: something I don't on your first post.
I have not solved anywhere near the grand scare problems you've, I presume sarcastically, attributed to me. Nobody thinks I did, or that I even attempted to.
Sir, that Grenadilla was chosen as the material to make good clarinets out of, being based on maching costs, is all but accepted manufacturing fact in the clarinet world. By no means am I claiming that Buffet, or other Grenadilla clarinet manufacturers chose it solely from a cost standpoint (clearly it had to produce a good instrument), but you can bet that was the main reason why, and you can bet that other materials like hard rubber produce sound at least as nice as grenadilla. And was it possible that in addition to profit, cost savings to the consumer, and the need to be competitive in Capitalistic markets (which benefit consumers) also played a role in its choice? Sure. It's even a good thing.
"greed of unprincipled Capitalists and the exploitation of Earth's scarce natural resources and the indigenous people who harvest the wood"
Well, that part of your sarcasm I think you actually got somewhat right sir. ...only not as I think you intended it.
The "unprincipled Capitalists" as you put it were those who continued to oversource Grenadilla knowing clear well it was being used faster than it was being produced, all while other materials to make clarinets, good clarinets, existed.
They helped create the market for these products in what is clearly recognized as underdeveloped countries with limited laws to control, let alone enforce proper forestry of the wood, in a climate where bribes and payoffs were often more then norm than the exception.
The indigeous people? A few made a lot of money conducting "responsible forestry practices" in the way they knew the term to mean: getting the maximum money for their plantation as soon as possible. Most didn't. http://www.clarinetsforconservation.org/
"we daren't paddle a canoe with our inferior wooden clarinets"
Your words not mine. But while on the topic, let me define inferior, and note that if a Greenline is a wooden clarinet, then that $15 faux leopard vest my teenage daughter wears came from a real animal.
Grenadilla can change shape and crack. Hard rubber won't--I mean unless you use it to drive nails. Hard rubber can create manufactured clarinets with greater consistency. Hard rubber is not in shortage, grenadilla is. Hard rubber plays at least as well indoors, and kicks wood's "you know what" in outdoor temperature/humidity sensitive situations.
Do recall, I own one of those, as you put it, "inferior wooden clarinets" as you put it, and have expressly said that. So quite literally, I'm "in the same boat" as you sir, or at least paddling it, as you say, with the same make of oar.
"not to mention Buffet's Machiavellian utilization of our precious petroleum reserves to advance their nefarious goals."
Woa---slow down. There's so $100 words in there a bit out of my league.
Machiavellian: to deceive and be dishonest with someone for the purposes of tricking them.
Nefarious: evil or immoral
Buffet is neither Machiavellian nor nefarious with respect to the use of epoxies in their Greenline products. First, they disclose the fact that they use them, and consumers are free to educate themselves on what goes into making expoxies. Use of petroleum, until better (energy) sources come along is not only inevitable but necessary. Economies would grind to a halt without doing so. But using petroleum based products when other raw materials produce, at the very least, no worse products, (hard rubber) that don't directly consume these resoures, just makes more sense.
Buffet breaks no laws using epoxies it otherwises discloses using.
But while were on Buffet, I find this question curious: Why so much for the Greenlines? How much could expoxy and the Grenadilla surplus that they weren't in the past even using (maybe for heat?) to make instruments cost them? What's that? The R & D costs for the Greenline? Why'd they have to R & D something when hard rubber was there all along?
Oh, right---how could they justify those prices, let along their legacy use of Grenadilla?
Let me rephrase that question:
I happen to think Ridenour products better than Buffet. But just for argument sake, lets assume they weren't. Can someone explain to me how Tom and Ted Ridenour produce the quality they do at 1/3 the price? Is it because Buffet's 3 X as good? Wouldn't you expect Buffet's relative mamouth size compare to Ridenour to have economies of scale? What would Buffet charge for an R13 if they were Ridenour's size: $9,000?
"I never realized how much of their selling price (and my buying price!!) goes into these wasteful earth-destroying practices."
No sir, I already stated that the profits go for Buffet into organizational infrastracture whose direct affect on the quality of their instruments is often negligible at best.
"omniscient": knows it all
I'm not a know it all. Nor does it take one to realize that if you've got all this excess Grenadilla sitting around, but not in large enough pieces to make clarinets out of, and that Grenadilla has been your stock in trade for decades, that making a "plastic" clarinet (now remember, I'm the one who said that there's nothing wrong with plastic as a material to make clarinets out of from a machining or acoustical standpoint, just an environmental one) with grenadilla added is a great way to save money and remain loyal to your base material: the same material that you made money helping to kill off. Heck, Buffet might actually be saving in sanitation costs.
And I don't blame them. Recall, I complemented them on this decision--at least from a marketing perspective. My beef, environment notwithstanding was to get a share of that product savings. Epoxy is not expensive, and now they are using the same amount of grenadilla to make 2 product lines. Could you pass some of that savings on to the consumer thank you very much?
"Paper-pushers and meeting attendees," are necessary parts of large organizations. And some organizations need to be large. I don't think the Boeing's of the world could manage with 100 employees.
But there is no way that Buffet needs to be so large to produce the clarinets they do, anymore than we'd hope such largeness (not largesse) would have brought economies of scale to the consumer.
"I never realized how much of their selling price (and my buying price!!) goes into these wasteful earth-destroying practices. "
Third time sir: the profits go for Buffet into organizational infrastracture whose direct affect on the quality of their instruments is often negligible at best.
Sir: thank you for demonstrating to me why Buffet thrives while Ridenour doesn't have the marketshare it deserves:
people who don't have the facts right, and refuse to believe otherwise.
"Rest assured that this repentant clarinet owner has seen the light. at the next opportunity I shall destroy my awful, out-of-tune wooden clarinet in an appropriate pyre and thereafter restrict my musical instrument purchases to earth-friendly materials."
Why are you repentant? You probably had your grenadilla instrument before Rindeour was in business, or shortages in the African Blackwood tree were ever on the horizon.
I see your sarcasm and reply with seriousness: How will destoying your instrument restore the supply of trees, all while some young child who can't afford an instrument can use it?
Is it your wooden clarinet that's really out of tune sir, or do you play it out of tune, where perhaps some of the blame should fall on your shoulders? Even Tom Ridenour believes tuning is humanly controlled, he just tries to make it easier.
pyre: a heap of combustible material
So--let me get this right. In addition to destroying an instrument whose saving won't bring back the tree from which is was made, all while denying those who need instruments the chance to play it, you want to further greenhouse emissions?
Why burn something if you don't have to. Wouldn't that be like...I don't know...using epoxy resins in the production of a clarinet when you could just source rubber?
"restrict my musical instrument purchases to earth-friendly materials."
Making a clarinet out of grenadilla is very earth-friendly provided you harvest forests in sustainable ways. Sadly, that's not what happened, and your future choice in new instruments may not be one you make by being sarcastically green, but by necessity of the marketplace, and lack of the raw material for making clarinets that you covet.
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-03-22 00:04
I wan't aware that the Alpha was hard rubber ... I understood it was some type of plastic, like the non-wood Bliss instruments.
That would be very interesting ... if it weren't plastic.
As Eddie Daniels says in the Alpha ad: "It's not wood, and I love it!"
Tom
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2014-03-22 05:22
I can tell you how they keep the costs down - they don't have the tons of expenses that the larger companies have. Tom is not trying to gouge anyone either. So instead of costing $2700, they cost $1800, or whatever.
Retirement benefits for one (legacy costs), current employee costs for a large company, that a small company doesn't have.
The Alpha and the Libertas are not made of the same material - I have both.
I also own a Ridenour C Clarinet that I play in Opera.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: muppie
Date: 2014-03-22 06:09
David, How would you compare the Alpha vs Libertas?
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-03-22 06:44
David, I would hope the tarnishing you speak of might be addressed, assuming it even bothers its owner, with an inexpensive product like 3M Tarnish strips to trap the sulfides in the air that might cause said tarnishing.
Agreed?
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Author: Tom Ridenour
Date: 2014-03-22 02:49
David is correct.....silver and hard rubber don't make a good couple. It's like a Hollywood marriage. Gold would work fine.....theirs a few other plating options but I can't speak to them in detail off the top of my head.
Ridenour Clarinet Products,
rclarinetproducts.com
sales@ridenourclarinetproducts.com
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-03-22 03:32
So my Arioso is nickel plated? I never knew...
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: xiao yu
Date: 2014-03-22 10:45
The plating is not effect playing ability but effect looking and cost .Sliver always wear faster than nickel. I love Chrome plating best. But as I know, only selmer USA signet soloist used this for key plating. It always shin and clear and hardly wear off.
Actually ,there are a lot of cheap hard rubber clarinet use silver plating in Chinese market.
And my opinion of Libertas is :
Great sound. My customer （ A pro clarinetist of Hangzhou Philharmonic Orchestra )have used his buffet tosca to Pk it after I rebuilded Libertas( I don't like the cheap skin pads and some key cork ,I change to Valentino pads),but failed!! Libertas have really more dark sound than Tosca.
Uncomfortable register key. It is too high. Mine is triadtion register key.
stranger tuning problem. It is spring now ,temp is not high,but I have to pull out too much at center to bring G2 down (2mm). I don't know what will happen in summer. But after that ,intonation is pro level but maybe still not good as 576bc.
Key work is improved.
=======================
Kenny clarinet studio from China.
Lyrique libertas, ridenour hw mp,legere euro cut reeds.
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Author: Deb-by The Sea
Date: 2014-03-22 11:02
Hello To All:
I have been reading various posts but this one caught my eye and I needed to respond. I have had my Libertas for about a month now. It has been nearly 40 years since I seriously studied the clarinet. Currently I belong to a community band and am having a challenging blast. The Libertas is easy on the fingers and a delight to the ear. At first I felt like it was vibrating somewhat as noted by B. but then I recorded myself. What a beautiful sound. Thank you Tom and Ted Ridenour for letting me find joy in playing again and at a great price.
DebbieCA
Enjoying the Bliss of Retirement
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2014-03-22 15:04
The plating is high quality.
Doubt that you will see copper under the plating for many years.
Can't say that about the biggest company's nickel - not made like they used to.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-03-22 12:41
David Blumberg:
Any observations on the Alpha? How is it compared to the Libertas?
Also, do you have a decent E-flat in mind that doesn't cost a fortune? I asked Ted Ridenour about them designing one ... The low demand and screwy acoustics has probably discouraged development, forever. I owned a 1968 Selmer Series 9 E-flat that I wish I hadn't departed with ...
Tom
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2014-03-22 13:08
Tom - yes. But write me off list, as they don't want sales here on the board.
davidcblumberg at gmail.com
I am still very much of a "materials" guy, but Hard Rubber is a very good material - remember that our tone generators are made of Hard Rubber (Mouthpiece). Not that "wood is good" blindly, but good is good.
Price wise, there are many options out there. Would I recommend the Alpha over a Yamaha or Buffet plastic Clarinet? Absolutely!!
For the price, there isn't anything out there as good as the Libertas. And it can be compared to Clarinets costing over $1500 more.
Ergonomically, the Libertas feels much like my Buffet does, which I like.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-03-22 17:15
xiao yu:
In regards to the register key on the Lyrique Libertas ... Have you ordered the ergonomic key to replace the regular one? It might be lower and thinner and easier to use for your customer. My Lyrique Speranza has the ergonomic key and it is thinner and lower in respect to the LH thumb tube.
I actually like the thicker register key on my Libertas. But it really doesn't make much difference to me ...
On the G2 problem ... if you haven't already done this, adjust (make thicker) the bumper cork under the RH key ring, therefore making the 1st pad on the bottom joint is as low as possible without the G2 sounding fuzzy. You can use the little "stick on" felt pads to experiment, or just layers of electrical tape stuck directly to the body of the clarinet ... This will lower the G2 pitch a little, as I am sure you know. I strive to play with low resting finger position, so I probably flatten some of my pitches very, very slightly, anyway.
I do pull a little at the center joint when warmed up ... but I've done this on ALL clarinets I've owned, including the Buffet R13.
Best of luck to you and your Tosca customer, I hope he can adapt well to the Libertas.
Tom
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Author: xiao yu
Date: 2014-03-23 01:01
Toms,
The register key is too high as regular not because it is not ergonomic.Even after I changed the key cork to very thin.And yes ,I will order ergonomic to change it later.
I know how to bring single G2 down,but all lower joint note both high. After pull out ,the B1 (A=442)still have a little high but less than 10 cents.
I shorted my hand made COCOBOLO barrel to 62mm, and will test again.
=======================
Kenny clarinet studio from China.
Lyrique libertas, ridenour hw mp,legere euro cut reeds.
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Author: muppie
Date: 2014-03-23 07:25
xiaoyu, I have the same gripe about the register key on the Libertas. I think with time you can get used to it though, although why they've decided to make it so different, I don't know.
It's not just the register key, there are other differences in the keys that aren't good. For me it's the D# (left ring finger) it needs to be slightly higher / closer to the tone hole for the middle finger. I don't like the tip shape and curves of the two B/C# keys for the left pinky finger. These two issues often drive me nuts i.e. harder to get used to than the register key thing.
Another thing is the rod that connects the keys between the upper and the lower joint. The angle of the plates don't match properly. It absolutely works fine, but it lacks precision.
I think they key work is the #1 "cons" of the Libertas. It makes it look and feel cheap, even though the keys are strong, solid and reliable - some of the qualities that a professional equipment should have, but it lacks that "awesome feel" to it and I'm not talking about nickel vs silver. It's the shapes / lengths / positions of some of the keys, as well as the curves / corners of the keys. If this can be improved, it would be a top clarinet.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2014-03-23 07:33
Any professional repair tech can make a register key extension that suits your left hand and thumb.
Tom Ridenour is concerned about making his clarinets play comfortably. The change could be as simple as substituting his "ergonomic" register key. If that doesn't work for you, I think he will be open to suggestions.
Ken Shaw
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Author: muppie
Date: 2014-03-23 07:57
How many people complained about buffet's keys being annoying / badly designed?
I don't feel that Ted / Tom cares about my input about this key shape issue. They just told me "bend it yourself or get it bent by a tech". The register key, can probably be easily modified.
I don't see how to bend the D# key without making it look funny. To do it properly the key needs to be de-soldered / detached from the main axis/post, shifted up, re-soldered, so no bending involved.
The B/C# keys - no bending will do in this case. It's the basic shape that's not ideal.
Anyway, it is what it is. I do hope they'll change it but I won't hold my breath over it.
I don't think the Ridenour clarinet is bad. Far from it. But it's not perfect either.
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-03-23 08:08
Xiaoyu:
OK ... sounds like you are working on the problems diligently!
Good luck to you!
Tom
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Author: Tom Ridenour
Date: 2014-03-23 08:13
It's not that we don't care it's that these are really issues of personal preference. We've sold the Libertas to other clarinetists who haven't had any issues with the mechanism or at least haven't bothered to mention them including several top professionals who have very high standards and would be in my ear if they had any significant problems with the mechanism.
I've heard countless stories from clarinetist who after purchasing extremely expensive clarinets proceeded to have multiple hundreds of dollars (or more) worth of customization work put into it. I'm sorry but providing a clarinet that is mechanically perfect out of the case for every player is impossible for any maker. Mechanical customization is something that is always best done on a one to one basis where the player can sit down with the tech and provide feedback to the tech regarding how the adjustments the tech has made feel to the player.
Ted Ridenour
Ridenour Clarinet Products,
rclarinetproducts.com
sales@ridenourclarinetproducts.com
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2014-03-23 08:19
I'm one of them - if the mechanism wasn't great, I would have a real problem with it.
Ergonomically, I like it!
Regular register key, like a buffet is what I have.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-03-23 09:47
Muppie:
I find the Libertas mechanism fine for me.
I have a wonky, damaged right hand and have problems (on all clarinets, except some older Selmers) of my middle finger rocking into the sliver key, and spoiling some notes. If I slowly practice, practice, practice, concentrate, concentrate, concentrate ... taking care and special attention to precision and using just the pads of my fingers, I can overcome this problem ... at least most of the time. It wears off after a few days or during times of stressful playing. I also have mechanical cures: (1) remove the sliver key and whittle it down shorter and skinnier and/or (2) increase the spring tension (making the key stiffer) and replacing the pad with a softer, usually leather pad.
The practice, practice, practice is the best way of defeating my problem ... but I did modify my Buffets to help.
I didn't consider my Buffets keys defective, just needing some personal tweaking.
I've not modified my Libertas because I've ordered a Thumb Saddle 1st, to see if that will help. But, I may require someone to implement my personal changes at some point.
You have played your E12F more than the Libertas? Try using just the Libertas for a few days and you will grow into it.
I know you also have concerns over key cosmetics, placement and geometry ... I've no suggestions other than I'd rather have my money where it really counts, in the correct bore/tone hole placement in an inherently better material.
And again, the Lyrique Libertas mechanism fits the fat little hands on this old man just fine.
I am glad you are interested in the art of clarinet playing! You have interest and instinct well beyond most new players. I've read all the threads you have started and you've launched some interesting topics!
All the best to you and I hope you find your ideal setup!
Tom
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Author: muppie
Date: 2014-03-23 09:59
I have been playing with my Libertas much longer now than the Buffet. I think in a week, I'd be playing on the Libertas for 6-10 hours, vs maybe 1 hour or less on the E12F. Despite my complaints about Libertas's keys, I play it more because it's easier blowing and I don't have to worry about moisture on it. I now have to struggle with my blowing when playing with the E12F because I've been spoilt with the Libertas.
I am sure in time with practice / repetition, I will get used to the keys on the Libertas, but I still think the keys on the Buffet is far superior in quality, finish, design, shape and feel.
So if RCP would like to look at things to improve, that's where I think they should focus on, since the acoustical design is obviously already superb.
But if they are happy with things as it is, then that's fine too, it's their choice. Take this as an input / feedback for what it's worth.
Post Edited (2014-03-23 10:58)
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-03-23 17:26
Muppie:
I am sure RCP wants to please ... if enough people complain, they will make some changes.
However, I think most clarinetists like the keywork.
Yeah, my Buffets and especially my old Selmers fit my hands a bit better, or at least I thought as the time. They now feel "funny" when I pick one up ...
You know, Selmer Paris makes a model called (I think) called the Signature that reportedly shares some of the acoustical properties of the Ridenour designs. You might like the keys on that one ... but it is wood and at least 3-4 times the cost of the Libertas. I might be totally wrong about this ... but it is something that I thought I heard ...
Best regards
Tom
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2014-03-23 13:26
I believe the Lyrique pro model will be phased out shortly. Why not?
richard smith
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-03-23 17:37
Muppie:
You know, RCP did address some people's preferences and came out with a WOODEN clarinet called the G1. So, they are concerned with fixing complaints and introducing new products where there is customer interest.
I think they are well in touch with us.
Keep the faith!
Tom
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2014-03-23 14:32
Muppie, someone who has only played Clarinet for a couple of months, doesn't even begin to have a valid point yet. Play for a year, study - HARD, then get a better Clarinet.
You don't learn to drive in a Ferrari.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
Post Edited (2014-03-23 18:35)
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2014-03-23 18:36
Even at 1 year, experience wise it takes TIME - years even!! Clarinet improvement comes slowly. Voicing takes time.
The E12F is better suited for a beginner than an R-13, Liberte, etc.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
Post Edited (2014-03-23 18:43)
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Author: muppie
Date: 2014-03-23 19:55
What makes E12F better suited for a beginner, and R13 / Libertas less so?
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-03-23 20:39
David: I respect your opinion and knowledge. I am though of the belief that if the student has the money for an E12, then they should take it and spend it on a clarinet that's easier to play, with even blowing across notes, and fantastic intonation:
I guess I'm trying to say that the argument for Ridenour clarinets, while a fabulous one for advanced players, I believe, is an even more stupendous one for beginners...with noted respect to your comments about how playing proficiency first, matters enormously.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2014-03-23 17:10
I can speak on this, as I've owned an E12F and the Liberte.
The E12F was a gorgeous Clarinet (sealed amazingly well), but did NOT play like an R-13. Tone wasn't quite as deep - a beginner wouldn't know that.
The E12F is very free blowing, has a lighter sound than an R13, possibly less dense wood. Wood density IS a difference among models such as the Prestige.
That is according to a 15 minute conversation I had with the President of Buffet last Sunday afternoon.
Great instrument, but not an r-13. Gorgeous looking, very good playing, but is not for an advanced player. The Liberte is.
I am perfectly comfortable on the Liberte.
A beginner wouldn't know a good from a bad R-13.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2014-03-23 17:18
And yes - a Libertas wouldn't be a "bad clarinet" for someone just starting out, but to pick an R-13 would be (without a good teacher doing the picking) an exercise in folly.
I don't consider the Liberte to be a difficult, or hard blowing instrument, but voicing would matter for any Clarinets pitch.
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2014-03-24 02:48
Is Muppie a beginner, experienced, maybe a dealer? He seems very knowledgeable and also inquisitive. Bravo!!
richard smith
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Author: muppie
Date: 2014-03-24 05:18
I am very much a beginner but keen to learn.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2014-03-24 01:28
And Muppie - that is all that is needed to become a Clarinet player. Work at it hard, and it will come.
One big difference with Adult students as opposed to young students, is that Adult students want instant progress. Young students are much more forgiving of themselves.
Make haste slowly
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: gkern
Date: 2014-03-24 06:36
But David, us older guys don't have that much time left...
Seriously, I am a tad disappointed that I haven't progressed more since I started playing 4 years ago after a 53 year hiatus, but the enjoyment hasn't tapered off, still exciting, and I think I am respectable although very rough around the edges. More practice on scales and long tones would be helpful, but I am not that disciplined!
Gary K
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2014-03-27 00:52
any comparisons with the wood G-1 Ridenour? thanks.
richard smith
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Author: dibble
Date: 2014-03-27 15:44
David, what is the difference in tone?
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2014-03-27 17:31
Libertas has more "ping" in the sound. A Pro Flutist prefers my sound on the Libertas than the G1.
I played the Philadelphia Orchestra's playalong of Strauss Chamber work on the Libertas, and blended quite well with the Buffet's around me.
Sounded way better than the amateur players on R-13's (and some College Professors near us). Blended well with Sam Caviezel, whom I showed it to.
My C Clarinet has the ergonomic register key, and it is comfortable - didn't to me take any getting used to.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
Post Edited (2014-04-09 10:52)
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The Clarinet Pages
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