 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Jerry
Date: 2013-12-24 20:26
Is there a tradeoff between intonation and tone as in "clean mind, clean body, take your pick". In other words, do attempts to improve intonation of spectific notes sometimes cause a degradation in tone quality of those notes?
In the Amati vs. Ridenour C thread, there were some comments that implied or asserted that tweaking to improve intonation created some degradation of sound quality such as making the sound of the adjusted note "stuffier" or a bit less responsive.
I assume this is note-dependent (adverse affect varies depending on the note adjusted) and I also understand that adjusting the pitch of one note may inversely alter the pitch of another note that uses that same tone hole.
Jerry
The Villages, FL
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2013-12-24 20:53
You've hit on the crux of choosing a clarinet.
NO!!!!!!!
You find an instrument that plays IN TUNE from note to note (as much as possible) at the pitch center that you use most (as much as possible), so that any tweaking would be nominal and in no way would sacrifice pitch of other notes or timbre at all.
There are plenty of clarinets that DO NOT meet this criteria and it is up to YOU to pick the one (or ones) that DO.
If you already have a clarinet that has an intonation issue that is so bad that a correction causes an equally disruptive result, then you must decide which problem is easier to live with ............never a healthy choice if you are doing this as a living.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: afmdoclaw
Date: 2013-12-24 21:16
INTERESTING QUESTION
I have always believed that the foundations of a good tone (air flow via the diaphragm and focused airflow (throat and tongue position)) are also the basic requirements for good intonation (still does not guarantee good pitch if you don't listen well) absence a God-given talent such as perfect pitch that allows instantaneous compensation
Who wants to play an instrument with bad intonation anyway-- definitely not a person with perfect pitch.
Agree with Mr. Shaw-- find one instrument that has good intonation and you make it sound good with work on the above fundamentals and good accessories (mouthpiece and barrel).
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2013-12-24 17:49
Not the topic I know but I must just tweak a few notions in the above post. Air flow (and here we assume OUTWARD) is courtesy of the abdominal muscles. One PUSHES air out by engaging the core for a good sound. And the tongue is the only thing that gets positioned. Only giraffes have voluntary throat muscles. :-)
........................Paul Aviles
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2013-12-24 22:51
>Is there a tradeoff between intonation and tone as in "clean mind, clean body, take your pick". In other words, do attempts to improve intonation of spectific notes sometimes cause a degradation in tone quality of those notes?
it could be. For example you can fix very sharp C# by lowering pad, but at the point where lowering starts making good impact it makes it sound dead.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2013-12-24 23:32
I'm going out on a limb here and agree with Pauls first post. A good instrument played but a good player never needs to distort one to improve the other. People improve the intonation on their instrument in several different ways. Different barrels, taping and or undercutting holes, opening or slightly closing a pad key, having work done on a bore, in drastic cases, moving a tone hole if possible. And of course use alternate fingerings when possible to play better in tune. What one does not do is to distort your tone to play in tune. Your tone is your tone, you work to develop it as much as possible. The only time there is an exception is if you have to loosen or tighten your embouchure in a passage to play better in tune with someone else but that's an on the spot time. If you want to call that distortion then so be it but it will still sound better than not being in tune with the other instrument. The best thing to do obvioulsy is to find an instrumet that you can play as close to perfect as possible with only having to make slight adjustments. Try before you buy.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Jerry
Date: 2013-12-25 00:20
Cyclo's comment gets close to the essence of my initially posted question. The question dealt not so much with the player's attempt to improve the intonation between/among notes by lipping up/down, reeds higher/lower, breathing differences, etc. but more with physical adjustments to the instrument.
For example, there are several well respected clarinet tweakers who import "average" clarinets from hither and yon and supposedly perform miracles of intonation accuracy out of them. I was wondering to what extent, if any, such tweaks (not sure what they are: tone hole adjustments/resizing/undercutting, etc.) impact tonal quality (deadness, muted, fuzziness, uncentered vs ringing, lively, clear, centered.)
Jerry
The Villages, FL
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2013-12-25 01:03
Ed- perhaps I should have been a bit more specific. I take issue with Paul's statement "the tongue is the only thing that gets positioned. Only giraffes have voluntary throat muscles". This article, even though it is about something else completely (vibrato), is one of many studies that show how the throat is used in wind playing.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2013-12-25 01:37
Jerry -
Tweakers begin with exceptionally good clarinets and make improvements. That's certainly what Kalmen Opperman told me.
Finding that "great already" clarinet is problematic. I've read that Mark Nuccio goes to the Buffet import site in Florida to pick them out for his students, and Greg Smith, Walter Grabner and Lisa's Clarinet Shop say they test many clarinets to find the best ones to tweak.
I'd welcome Ed Palanker's thoughts on how he made sure his students got good instruments.
Ken Shaw
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2013-12-25 03:35
Jerry;
if you're interested in some of the stuff Tom Ridenour does check youtube. There are literally a hundred Tom's videos on clarinet both technique and working on instrument.
I am fan and watching his videos could be entertaining and educational. For example his spin on why Moennig picked "that" specific taper for barrels (apparently b/c it is Morse #2 taper)..
as a person behind Leblanc poly-cylindrical bore improvements Tom certainly knows what he is doing. I would not dare to bore out joints to correct intonation; have enough trouble to ream barrel bore right.
By adjusting joint bore, barrel, building up or undercutting lowering pads, etc you can get many instruments better. Thing is that not all problems are fixable, and in many cases it is a trade off. For example you could have some tones 20% sharp at soft and they will go flat at loud. And it isn't b/c of pad height it is due to fundamental bore/tonehole sizing. So if you were to set it up it would do fine for 70% but another 30% is maybe what you need it for?
Thing is that what Ken says is very much true: to get a great instrument you have to start with good instrument! (or at least fixable)
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Author: afmdoclaw
Date: 2013-12-25 00:41
PAUL
I assume your kidding about your throat comments-- I HOPE SO. If not, it would make for a great topic. I assume you warm up with your overtone exercises daily-- AGAIN, I HOPE SO. I also correctly assume you never studied with Joe Allard (RIP).
As for the air flow -- yes outward -- the old in and out of sound production.
As for the term diaphragm -- yes, you use your abdominal muscles to push the air from the diaphragm level out --- the old bellows lecture.
But remember the last lung areas to receive the air are the upper lobes and are important for total volume of inspired air. Remember your yoga (raise the arms above the head last with inspiration exercise) breathing exercises should be taught to students before they blow a note. Maximize the air flow potential.
BTW--Once my teacher explained the importance of throat exercises and I did what he said it greatly improved my tone and intonation. The lip is steady and firm and the throat does the rest.
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Author: afmdoclaw
Date: 2013-12-25 00:45
Paul
I forgot one thing.
When you warm up with just your mouthpiece what is your scale range? Remember-- don't cheat with your lip--- throat only.
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2013-12-25 05:58
I have this problem in the extreme. My Custom Yamaha plays so much in tune that I barely have to think about it. The sound is beaming and projects well but is a bit bright. My R-13 plays all over the place but is incredibly mellow, round, warm and full. I'm assuming that eventually I will find a way to play the Buffet in such a way that pitch is not a problem, but that will probably have to come when I get stronger as a musician. I played to a tuner and the Yamaha is just dead on without me having to be any better than I am now. The Buffet also wanders in pitch unless I relax in the altissimo. I take it as part of the adventure of playing different instruments, each with their own special personality.
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2013-12-25 16:24
The 1990 November/December edition of "The Clarinet" has an article by Arthur Benade (published posthumously) that claims that "…stability of pitch has been bought at the expense of tone, articulation, and the ability to play in tune in the midst of an ensemble."
Steve Ocone
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2013-12-25 19:24
To save us from trying to find the original article, what does Benade mean by "stability of pitch...?"
Karl
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Author: afmdoclaw
Date: 2013-12-25 15:46
PAUL
You need to buy and read the now retired (1967-2008) Houston Symphony clarinetist Richard Nunemaker's book "The Effortless Clarinet." Wonderful exercises on tone production and intonation including challenging but rewarding overtone exercises. The price is most reasonable but the information is priceless.
http://www.richardnunemaker.com/publications.php
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2013-12-26 00:03
I won't be doing justice to the article, but here it goes. Benade claims that the clarinet used to be played with a"less tight embouchure". This enabled the clarinetist to more easily adjust the tuning. A tighter embouchure gives more pitch stability.
I wish I could post the article, but I don't want to violate any copyright laws.
Steve Ocone
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2013-12-26 08:15
Steve -
Many of Benade's articles are on-line at https://ccrma.stanford.edu/marl/Benade/, and brief passages from his books can be accessed without copyright violation through <books.google.com/>.
You may also freely post the title and source for the article. It would be a favor to everyone if you could do so.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2013-12-26 19:03
Boy I'm sorry I am late to see some of these responses!
I've looked over the noted article and would like very much to quote from it.
"The only muscles in the throat which are constrictor muscles are in the pharynx, and they are primarily involved in swallowing."
First, I'd like to point out (from basic anatomy) that the ONLY job of ANY muscle is to CONTRACT (opposing reactions are achieved by muscles positioned in oposition). That aside, no where does he claim you can use these muscles voluntarily, and no where does he say they are involved in woodwind playing.
"The visual analysis and the graphs of tracing measurements indicated that there was structural motion in the throat, specifically in the larynx, which occurred when vibrato was used."
The larynx is the "voice box." No surprises here.
"It would appear that pulsing of the air column was accomplished by the vocal folds by action of the arytenoids. This is the only place in the throat where the air stream can be modulated. It should be stressed that the vocal folds are not being used in a sound-producing capacity, but as mechanism to modulate and control the flow of air from the trachea into the oral cavity. A variation primarily of intensity would be the result of this type of air modulation."
Oh, so is he saying that all that is happening is the rapid lessening and increasing of air flow?
"It appears that the air column was modulated by movement of the vocal folds. This caused changes in the speed and amount of air reaching the oboe reed or flute head joint, and resulted in changes in the intensity of the sound. Assuming constant pressure from the abdominal muscles, the volume and intensity of the air would decrease as the vocal folds are approximated. As they are opened, the volume and intensity would increase."
I guess so.
So how does that contravene my previous statements?
......................Paul Aviles
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2013-12-26 20:02
I can't remember the source, but motion-picture x-rays have conclusively showed that "diaphragm vibrato" is a myth and that vibrato is almost universally done in the larynx. Jaw, tongue and lip movements are less common.
This stands to reason. We're used to making fast larynx movements. You can say "who, who, who, who, who, who, who, who, who" in 16ths at 144 (all in the larynx, with no air puffs) -- far faster than any other method. It's a matter of getting it under control. That's a problem on clarinet because of the high air pressure and relatively large amount of air. I learned to do it on the flute and recorder quit easily, but I've never been easy with it on clarinet.
I've read that when Marcel Tabuteau lost the ability to do other forms of vibrato, he shook his oboe.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2013-12-26 23:51
Liquorice, I agree, one can do several different things with ones throat as far as playing the clarinet. People can tighten, relax, open, or close and voice with their throat. Every position will effect ones tone. Perhaps even intonation to a degee.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2013-12-27 01:15
How do well trained singers do vibrato. Diaphragm or larynx ?
I had to say 'well trained' as there are an awful lot of awful 'singers' out there.
It is to be also noted that this is a Clarinet forum not a singers forum.
Good singers apparently always deny that they add vibrato to their singing.
I read somewhere that students had to take singing lessons in the old days before they were allowed to begin wind instrument playing.
Skyfacer
Post Edited (2013-12-26 20:23)
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2013-12-26 20:27
Thank you Ken. I found the article "On the Tuning of Clarinets". Follow the link Ken provided, click on "writings", and then click on a link for the "90's".
Steve Ocone
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2013-12-27 02:28
Paul- you missed the main point of the article:
It is the VOLUNTARY ACTION in the throat that produces the pulsation in the air flow. This contradicts your statements about us not having voluntary control of our throat and the tongue being the only thing that gets positioned.
Ed gets it and Ken describes the action quite well. Another example would be if you said "uh-oh". In saying that you close the throat twice. If you slow down that action you notice that you can modulate the opening in the throat. If you try doing this while playing the clarinet you'll notice that it has an effect on the sound. Most players use this to some extent (many without realising it) to modulate or "voice" their sound.
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2013-12-26 21:48
Found where I read about learning to sing correctly before taking up a wind instrument. It's from an old treatise by Martin Agriclola's "Musica Instrumentalis Deudsch. 1528. Yes, I did say in the old days
Quote (translated into modern English from old German) “If you wish to understand the foundation of playing skilfully on flutes and crumhorms, and of playing with artistry on the cornett, pommer, and shawm, then remember the following at all times. If you desire a true foundation, you will do well to bear singing in mind: if you understand singing, you will certainly learn more about instruments in six weeks (if you are diligent) than someone ignorant of singing will discover in six months.”
Clearly, these early teachers regarded singing as the absolute foundation of wind instrument playing. Modern wind instrument teachers have obviously forgotten this old 'truth' when you read of their complex 'cerebral' explanations concerning breathing techniques, tone projection ect.
Skyfacer
Post Edited (2013-12-26 22:00)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2013-12-27 03:32
I found the Benade article using Ken's link and your direction to its location. Once I found the DJView reader to use with the file, I found it fascinating. Mostly because it explains to a great extent the differences that I've increasingly heard between my teacher's generation of players and many of the younger high end clarinetists and their adherents who seem to play with so much less color in their sound and often barely loud enough to be heard even on solo passages in orchestral lit.
Thanks, Steve and Ken, for pointing to this article.
Karl
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Author: afmdoclaw
Date: 2013-12-27 04:09
Barry I agree "Clearly, these early teachers regarded singing as the absolute foundation of wind instrument playing" (see my comments at the end here) However I respectfully disagree that "[m]odern wind instrument teachers have obviously forgotten this old 'truth' when you read of their complex 'cerebral' explanations concerning breathing techniques, tone projection ect(sic)". In fact
I hope you don’t have family or friends that are singers that could google your name and read your comments about vocalist as somewhat dismissive. Granted they don’t have a visible instrument like a “licorice stick” they too must understand the science of vocal sound production if they aspire to sing professionally -- excluding making a living at local karaoke contests.
According to Opera Mom, Viennese trained vocal professor Kurt Weinsinger had an outline that breaks down the process of singing into an understandable, objective set of fundamentals, that just about anybody can achieve.
Five Basic Elements of Singing
1. Good Posture
A. Feet shoulder width apart
B. Bottom tucked under - back straight
C. Ribcage lifted
D. Chin tucked slightly under (no goose-neck!)
2. Relaxation of the Vocal Mechanism
A. Good posture
B. Throat and neck relaxed
C. Jaw loose (submissive look)
D. Back of throat (soft palate) lifted as in a yawn
3. Proper Breathing
A. Good posture
B. Take small breaths, down low, expanding the lower ribs in a barrel-like fashion. (This is breathing from the diaphragm)
C. Settle the breath before singing
D. Breaths should not be great gasps for air, but controlled intake as well as controlled outflow
4. Proper Focus
A. Tone well in the facial masque, or sinus cavities. This is also known as putting a spin in the voice.
B. On high notes, the focus becomes tighter, as is put right on the bridge of the nose
5. Good Mental Concept--"Hear" the note before it is sung. If you cannot "hear" what you want the note to sound like, it is very difficult for you to make it sound that way
Even “down under” schools teach similar scientific concepts of voice production (http://openacademy.sydney.edu.au/course/AVFU).
Granted musicians that are excellent singers are usually one step ahead of their fellow wind instrument students.
In fact if you have a child that aspires to be a clarinetist you would do him/her a great service by teaching them the fundamentals of music ala Paul Hindemith for a few early formative years followed by piano before ever letting them blow a note on a clarinet
Sure wish my loving parents (RIP) had done that for me.
BTW Hindemith’s entire book ELEMENTARY TRAING FOR MUSICIANS is now available FREE on line
http://www.futuretg.com/FTHumanEvolutionCourse/FTFreeLearningKits/05-AR-Arts,%20Architecture,%20Design,%20Music%20and%20Sports/068-AM06-The%20Art%20of%20Musical%20Composition/Paul%20Hindemith%20-%20Elementary%20Training%20for%20Musicians.pdf
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2013-12-27 08:39
Many thanks to afmdoclaw for giving a current link to the Hindemith. It's still under copyright, so I'm surprised to find it available.
The Hindemith exercises are excellent music and are surprisingly difficult, even for the elementary ones. The advanced ones are impossible.
Elementary Training for Musicians has been discussed several times here, for example http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=228470&t=228105.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Jerry
Date: 2013-12-27 22:16
Wow! If I knew all this about the throat, tongue, larynx, lungs, stomach, liver, etc. before I took up clarinet at age 10 I could have been a singer and saved several thousand in instrument costs and wouldn't have to worry about fingerings, either.
Jerry
The Villages, FL
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Author: afmdoclaw
Date: 2013-12-27 17:25
LOL Jerry
I have the same sentiments now that my old fat semi-arthritc fingers make the clarinet even harder.
I applaud your continuing enthusiasm since you probably have been playing clarinet for over 60 years now. Cool.
I was married to a professional singer for 25 years and it ain't as easy as one would think and when their instrument "be broke" (laryngitis) a leak light and a pad won't work. Makes for one miserable experience for both wife and husband if you know what I mean.
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Author: afmdoclaw
Date: 2013-12-27 17:41
LIVER? (missed that)
OMG-- no wonder I am still struggling. I think all those "open bar" (band drinks free!!!) gigs in the 70's ruined my music career in more way than one. Now you tell me.
BTW-- don't forget the most important organ-- a tight sphincter to withstand the intra-abdominal pressure created by the abdominal muscles forcing the airstream through the small space between the mouthpiece tip and the reed. Can be dangerous under certain circumstances.
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