 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2013-03-21 00:12
I just acquired a Buffet R13 from 1972 that is so superior to the current instrument that I am playing which is a 1955 Leblanc Symphonie. What is it that makes the Buffet R13 so much head and shoulders above other brands and models.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2013-03-21 00:50
Be careful. From your post, all you can really say is that you find it head and shoulders above your Symphonie. "...head and shoulders above other brands and models" can get you into deep trouble in these here parts.
Karl
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2013-03-21 01:10
I agree with your warning so I guess that I just lucked out and got one of the exceptional R13's.
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2013-03-21 01:31
Clarineteer wrote:
> What is it that makes the Buffet R13 so much
> head and shoulders above other brands and models.
Them's fightin' words!
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2013-03-21 01:41
That is why 87 out of every 100 clarinets sold are Buffet.
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2013-03-21 02:37
Agreed. *heads for the hills to wait for the fighting to be over*
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Author: Wes
Date: 2013-03-21 04:16
Those R13s from 1971/72 era have been said to be quite fine. The one I have is a bit low in pitch, working best with a 65 mm barrel, Chadash, by the way. It is the character of the sound and the projection that are liked a lot.
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2013-03-21 07:49
The original owner warned me that the intonation was excellent except for the throat A which was sharp but using my Grabner AWS PER mouthpiece even the throat A was spot on with the original 66MM barrel. And as you mention the character of the sound and projection are incredible.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2013-03-21 10:10
As recently as the 70's, there really were only three horns from which to choose: (top of the line of) Buffet, Selmer and Leblanc. Selmer was known to be the pick for jazz, Buffet had the reputation for classical and Leblanc was just an upstart yet to be taken seriously by the likes of Stanley Hasty, Robert Marcellus and Stanley Drucker.
Since what you sat next to in orchestra was a Buffet, to fit in, you also needed a Buffet.
That's not to say there weren't reasons. When trying out Selmers vs. Buffets back then I was told to listen to how soft I could get on either horn. The Buffet did manage a greater resonance at an incredibly soft dynamic (so naturally I picked a Selmer as my first horn to sound like Benny Goodman). Even back then you had to try quite a few to get one with a really even scale (for YOU that is) so things haven't changed that much.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2013-03-21 12:42
But what is it that gives it that greater resonance.
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Author: MSK
Date: 2013-03-21 13:42
Back when I was a promising teenage student in the late 70s, my teacher arranged for my family to buy a " bargain late model used" R13. Kind of like buying one from 2008 today -- good but not perceived as special. Little did we know it would age gracefully into a classic "golden era" prize. It's still my primary instrument. Then again I play in a community rather than professional orchestra.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2013-03-21 14:59
I would add one thing to Paul's account of what was available at the time. While Selmer was traditionally thought of by many (I'm not sure it was true in the Boston S.O. even then) to be a jazz clarinet, the early '70s also brought the Selmer 10 and 10G into production. I don't remember that the 10 was around for very long or what it was like, but the 10G was explicitly marketed at the "classical" market, in fact the Buffet market. Gigliotti and Selmer took Moennig's modifications of the standard (as shipped) R13, added a few further refinements, and offered the resulting 10G as an improvement over Buffet without the need for someone like Moennig to reconfigure it.
The 10G never really caught on very broadly outside (or even inside) Philadelphia. But for some players - enough to keep the model in production for at least a decade - it was the winner in the match-up with R13.
Karl
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Author: brycon
Date: 2013-03-21 21:07
Quote:
That is why 87 out of every 100 clarinets sold are Buffet.
I agree. Likewise, McDonald's makes the best burgers, Michael Bay directs the best movies, and Kenny G is the greatest saxophonist of all time.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2013-03-21 21:43
Besides, where would a stat like that come from? Who keeps track of every clarinet sold?
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2013-03-21 23:50
Karl,
I found that post quite amusing. The Selmer I got was a 10G and it was nothing like the Buffet. It featured heavily undercut tone holes (giving a more forgiving sound yet less focused) and an overall brighter sound.
This is true of Leblanc as well. They designed clarinets in a vacuum and only after manufacture did they invite top clarinetists to try it in hopes a "celebrity endorsement." Marcellus mercilessly told of taking Leblanc's money to fly him out, put him up at a hotel for several days, wine and dine him, only to have him try out the horns for a few minutes and say, "No, I still don't like them."
Oh, and as for 'sound' the "how" is determined by the various aspects of the bore design mostly. But that isn't even the point. Point is that it is a COMPARISON of the Buffet to the Selmer whatever either of them happened to be. You can't have "ugly" without "beautiful," or "light" without "darkness." The two camps defined each other, rather than any one engineer setting out for a specific result.
Music is still an art not a science - thank God !!!!
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk
Date: 2013-03-22 00:57
Paul Aviles wrote:
> Karl,
>
>
> I found that post quite amusing. The Selmer I got was a 10G
> and it was nothing like the Buffet.
Well, but it wasn't anything like the earlier larger-bored Selmers that gave them the reputation of jazz horns - that was my only point. There was an intention to insert the 10G into the classical arena.
To follow what you've written here, it's true, as you say, there was more undercutting done in the 10Gs than in the R13s as they came off the assembly line. Moennig did a lot of undercutting as part of his modifications, and that, among other design features Moennig had introduced to the R13 post-manufacture was made part of the 10G design, incurring Moennig's intense enmity. One criticism people made of Moennig's modified instruments was, in fact, that they were brighter-sounding and perhaps too free-blowing compared to unaltered R13s. I only meant to point out that they were meant as symphonic instruments and no one mistook them for anything Benny might have once played in front of his band.
Karl
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Author: BobW
Date: 2013-03-22 03:43
I find MSK post, very similar to my experience
I graduated High School in 1975 in New York City
In my circles, at that time, the only professional clarinet you purchased was a Buffet ( now known as the R13 model )
I purchased mine in NYC for $500
Who would have thought, that 35 years later, I would have bought a Buffet R13 A clarinet made in 1975 for $1900
I purchased a new R13 in 2011 and my 1975 R13 plays better in my opinion
I presently play for fun in community bands
interesting observations
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Author: moma4faith
Date: 2013-03-26 22:40
I bought my 1970 R13 in 1988 for $600.00. Love, love , love that horn!! Still play it. Morrie Backun gave a once over and even commented on what a good, solid horn it was.
Just like my case says, it has the sweetest sound ever made! ;-). Or, at least, the sweetest sound I'm able to make!
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2013-03-27 13:37
I have a good (described by others) 1986 Bb R 13. How much "sweeter" would a mid 70's be? When I read things like this, I get jealous.
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: Joe Bloke
Date: 2013-03-27 14:36
I just spent the weekend touring music stores within a 200 mile range, trying out new and used horns of various brands (great way to spend the weekend, by the way). Out of about 20 clarinets, the right horn finally found me (yep, it's boring but, an R13).
I don't know about the 87 out of 100 sold number for R13's but, the new horn inventory in music shops, in my area (Pacific Northwest, USA), is at least 80% Buffet. That factor alone gave me many more R13's to test than any other competing brand. Consequently, it made it much easier to find the horn that worked well for me.
Like it or not, in the marketplace, the R13 is King and the standard to which all other clarinets are measured. It may or may not be the right horn for you but, as one dealer said: "Buffet got to be the biggest because they make a great clarinet."
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2013-03-27 15:08
So what vintage R13 did you decide on, and how did it compare to all the rest?
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: Joe Bloke
Date: 2013-03-27 16:46
I bought a new one (probably 2012 mfg.). What I found within the Buffet line, using the same reed, mouthpiece and ligature, was: slight differences in intonation (per my meter) and blowing resistance. New, used, silver keys, nickel keys; slight differences from horn to horn.
Fact probably is, the horns that didn't work for me will work perfectly for someone else. My conclusion is: It's an organic process. (If at all possible, play any horn before you buy it or, make sure you can return it if you're buying over the Internet).
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2013-03-27 20:33
I just purchased a late 1956 Buffet R13 that was owned and played by the great Jerome Richardson who played with some of the greats such as Charles Mingus, Lionel Hampton, Thad Jones / Mel Lewis big band and Earl Hines small band and only paid $450.00. I am anxious to do a complete overhaul and evaluate the tone and intonation.
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Author: brycon
Date: 2013-03-27 20:50
Quote:
I just purchased a late 1956 Buffet R13 that was owned and played by the great Jerome Richardson who played with some of the greats such as Charles Mingus, Lionel Hampton, Thad Jones / Mel Lewis big band and Earl Hines small band and only paid $450.00.
Jerome Richardson! What a great lead player- killing in those Thad Jones big band recordings.
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Author: RCeres
Date: 2013-03-28 04:00
I loved my circa 1970 R-13 I played all through high school. returning to the clarinet a year ago I started playing on a Leblanc LL. Subsequntly I picked up and restored a lovely pair of "donut hole" Buffet's from the 20's. Lastly (but not least) I finally got another R-13. I love it, but in some ways the other clarinets are better.
For instance the action on the LeBlanc has a lovely precision feel and the key set up is very comfortable. Also, this is the easiest of my horns to play straight in tune. The donut holes have really awesum pitch flexibility and great tone and dynamics at the cost of some precision in intonation and noisy key work (that might be my fault). I do love the R-13, it has a certain something, I'm just not sure what it is. Perhaps it is the confidence it inspires jumping across the register breaks and the ability to play evenly up and down the entire range of the instrument.
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Author: Joe Bloke
Date: 2013-03-28 14:14
@ RCeres: That's a great post encompassing a lot of the mysteries involved in finding the right instrument.
"I'm just not sure what it is." The right horn for you is what I read.
There are some legendary benchmark instruments that have captivated musicians over long periods of time. To list a few:
Selmer - Mark VI
Gibson - Les Paul
Steinway - D-274
Fender - Stratocaster
Buffet - R13
Hammond - B3
The list goes on through the various types of instruments. The mystery is built-in.
Post Edited (2013-03-28 14:16)
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2013-03-28 20:17
Haynes flute is another one.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2013-03-28 21:08
Joseph,
Does your R13 have a flat spring on the upper joint C#/G# key or does it have a needle spring on the post for that key?
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2013-03-28 22:43
I just checked the 1956 R13 and it has the flat spring on the upper joint C#/G# key and the 1972 has the needle spring.
Post Edited (2013-03-28 23:58)
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Author: Buster
Date: 2013-03-28 23:06
my 69 Camaro has leaf springs as well
Post Edited (2013-03-28 23:18)
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Author: Rickwbliss
Date: 2013-03-31 03:37
I think that you probably got an excellent r13, and a no-so-good Symphonie...
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Author: mihalis
Date: 2013-03-31 05:05
>I agree. Likewise, McDonald's makes the best burgers, Michael Bay directs the best >movies, and Kenny G is the greatest saxophonist of all time.
...and everybody is using Microsoft Windows because is the best operating system.
MIke.
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2013-03-31 13:45
I still want to know what people with experience think about my R-13. I have had opposite opinions expressed about it, and although I liked it compared to other horns, that doesn't mean it's in the top 25%. I still haven't gotten around to getting the proper barrel as the one I have is quite a bit flat, even though it is a Buffet barrel. Is there anyone in my neighborhood who knows and is willing to let me come over for your opinion? I live in Miami. Repairmen seem all to willing to say it's good or good to ok.
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2013-03-31 14:42
Garth, I've had similar experiences with my early 70s R-13. I'm currently using a Fobes 65 mm barrel that helps somewhat, although the chalumeau register and throat tones are still often flat. I find, though, that after warming up for a while, the pitch does improve.
I've noticed something else on my R-13 which I never noticed before reading various postings about bores and reamers. When I look very carefully at the bottom end of the upper joint, the opening is very slightly off-center. I wonder if this is or was common, and if it has an effect on tone or intonation.
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2013-03-31 15:45
I checked mine and the bore appears to be centered with the wall thickness of the tenon and the tenon appears to centered with the main body. Theoretically, if the tenon bore does not line up with the tenon it would be a problem. However these clarinets are "align bored" from the factory (assuming serial numbers match). This means that the bore of the upper section has to line up with the lower section regardless of a slight misalignment of the bore to the body or the tenon. In other words, the bore may not be parallel to the outer body but it does have to be a perfectly straight bore from top to bottom. This means that the length of the tone hole chimneys maybe a touch longer or shorter than originally intended. I think this can be the cause of very minor pitch irregularities. Judging by how irregular clarinets in general and Buffets in particular are, a slight irregularity of tone hole chimney may accidentally improve intonation. That's what I like about Yamaha clarinets. If one comes out of the factory with an out of spec dimension, a technician is compelled to commit Harri Kari. This inspires very alert workmanship.
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2013-03-31 16:37
Sometime in the early 1970s, Buffet made some design changes in the R13. Perhaps the most easily visible was the adoption of the needle spring on the C#/G# key. Some old-timers (and I believe Hans Moennig was among them) considered the older design preferable and regarded the change as the end of Buffet's "Golden Era." That's the reason I asked about the spring in the first place. I have a 1971 R13 that still has the flat spring and I was curious about when Buffet actually made the change. Apparently it was either 1971 or 1972.
(BTW, Jason, I sold my '67 Firebird around 1993 and used part of the proceeds to buy a 1967 R13 eefer. I don't remember what kind of springs the Firebird had. The eefer has the flat spring.)
Joseph, by just about every definition of the "Golden Era" I've seen, I think your clarinet falls outside it, but perhaps just outside it. That doesn't mean it wasn't a great clarinet when it was new. Nor does it mean that it isn't a fine clarinet now if it was well cared for all these years. As the owner of a pair of Leblanc "Symphonie Models," I am not in the least surprised that you prefer your R13. It's almost 20 years newer and was probably a better designed clarinet when it was new. If nothing else, the polycylindrical bore would appear to be a difference maker. My take on the whole Buffet/Selmer/Leblanc thing during the 1950s and 60s is just slightly different than Paul describes. At least when and where I was growing up, classical players preferred (small bore) Buffets, jazz players preferred (larger bore) Selmers and the only people who bought Leblancs were those who couldn't afford a Buffet or a Selmer. Also, Selmer's first foray into the small bore market was actually the Series 9*, made when the Series 9 was still in production.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: GBK
Date: 2013-03-31 17:37
The spring for the C#/G# key was universally changed from a flat spring to a needle spring at about serial number (+/-) 115,000 (1970), although some owners still report that models in the early part of 1971 also still had them.
From most accounts the changeover was complete by serial number 125,000 (1971).
...GBK
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2013-03-31 18:44
Almost all rear wheel drive American cars had leaf springs or at the very least coil springs supporting a single solid rear axle up until the 60's. This is true despite the fact that European cars were beginning to get independent rear ends. I believe the first American car with an independent rear end was the rear engine air cooled Corvair. The Corvair design was a copy of the VW bug and the Porsche however the independent rear end was vastly improved by Corvair in 1966 with the introduction of the trailing axle. To this day a properly set up second generation Corvair is capable of very respectable track times at autocross and long courses. The Firebird was typical of solid axle rear drive cars ( dependable on the highway but a handful in the twisties.) Nowadays, only trucks and certain SUV's dare to be sold with anything as primitive as solid rear axles. With the introduction of front wheel drive, the handling advantages and comfort provided by an independent rear end are obvious. We owe this largely to the Corvair which proved itself as a better design despite what Ralph Nader had to say.
I'm suspicious of Buffet's change over to the needle spring in 1971 as this corresponds closely with the adoption of an improved rear suspension for cars.
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2013-04-01 02:30
Front wheel drive cars were simply a ploy by the auto manufacturers to save money on drive shafts, universal joints and rear ends. I purchased a brand new Pontiac Firebird in July of 1968 that was equipped with heavy duty suspension, ride and handling package and it handled the twisties in an exceptional way.
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2013-04-01 02:41
My humble front wheel drive VW Golf is more of a sports car than my rear drive 1971 MGB. The Golf gets better gas mileage, breaks less often (almost never), handles better, is more comfortable, has better acceleration, shifts better and is more practical than the famous and beloved MGB. If a low level Golf would have shown up in 1971, it would be know as an extraordinarily great sports model and they would have sold out all they make. It isn't just the tires that have improved, it's the whole package. We need to get back to talk of clarinets which have hardly improved much in 40 years. Why is that?
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2013-04-01 14:14
Perhaps clarinets have not improved because they are the best they can possibly be.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2013-04-01 20:44
The Tatra 77 of 1934 had swing-axle rear suspension, a V-8 engine and did not use any needle springs. That's why the Buffet R-13 is such a piece of garbage.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2013-04-01 20:51
[ OK kids - the fun is now over - GBK ]
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