 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Ezekiel W
Date: 2010-08-05 17:20
Hello,
I've been searching, but can't seem to find anything. What's wrong with using a non-heated glue for pads? Does using a rubber cement or slow drying superglue not work for some reason?
Thanks,
Ezekiel
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Author: jasperbay
Date: 2010-08-05 17:30
Rubber/contact cement and superglue don't allow for much in the way of 'leveling, and future pad-height adjustment. Dave Speigelthal has successfully used Dow silicone adhesive for years, you might give it a try.
For the 'do it yourselfer', I personally prefer hot melt glue, reheated for leveling, etc. with a small 75W soldering iron held against the back of the cup.
There are several old threads on this topic, click on 'Search' and type 'pad' or 'DIY', etc.
Clark G. Sherwood
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-08-05 17:50
B&H used to stick pads in with Evo-Stik (even on 1010s) and as previously mentioned, the pad can't be shifted later on if it needs to be.
I find hot glue a pain when it comes to removing pads as it's very sticky, difficult to clean from pad cups and also sticks and burns skin. I dread working on instruments where it's been used excessively - Buffet and Selmer use it, but that doesn't mean it's good.
I use stick shellac as that is easy to clean off with alcohol, sets hard and less risk of getting burns from it than hot glue as shellac won't stick that well to cool surfaces. It can still stick to skin if it's molten to a free flowing liquid, but usually it cools down quick enough to still be pliable but not sticky.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2010-08-05 18:28
Actually I prefer the GE version of clear silicone sealant/caulk/adhesive, but other brands work just as well.
I continue to be amazed at the resistance to using the stuff from other (highly esteemed) members of this BB .
Well, they say that opinions are like _ _ _ _ s, everyone has one.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-08-05 18:59
Can pads be adjusted several months/years down the line with silicone adhesive (if they need to), and is it an instant type of adhesive that means you can play the instrument immediately after a pad has been installed with it?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: jyoung4225
Date: 2010-08-05 19:32
Hi Ezekiel,
Many repair techs use some form of high temperature hot glue or stick shellac when floating in pads. There are of course many different adhesives for pads but that's a whole other discussion. The advantage to glue/shellac is the ability to be re-heated as necessary when making adjustments while leveling pads.
That being said...aside from instrument repair, I've worked with silicone adhesive around the house and once it dries it's pretty much set. Depending on the composition of the silicone you pick up it may have a slight amount of give. If you don't get that pad leveled just right before it dries that give may drive you nuts if it affects the positioning of the pad. As far as drying time...even the fast dry stuff that Dap makes takes 40 minutes or so before you can 'paint' it.
This is not to say it can't be done...just my 2 cents about it.
-Justin-
For all your woodwind repair needs:
http://www.justin-young.net
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2010-08-06 05:01
I found some heat melting glues are very good and prefer one type for clarinet pads over shellac. But I really don't like some other types. Unlike Chris, shellac tends to burn me more and more often than this glue.
I have several types of silicone glues including the one Dave recommends. I didn't like any. The main reason is it takes far too long until it dries to solid condition. Then there's the problem of the pad having to be adjusted correctly exactly during the short time the glue is hardening. If keys are pressed while the glue behind them is soft, they won't simply adjust themselves to align correctly with the tone hole. So how is it even possible to check if the pad is aligned correctly? e.g. leaving a closed key closed with soft glue, no control on seal. It's not always a problem but sometimes it is. I also don't want to create a seat on the pad before it is adjusted to seal.
>> Can pads be adjusted several months/years down the line with silicone adhesive (if they need to) <<
Not by changing the pad's position over the glue, like is possible with heat melting glues and shellac. Only by re-aligning the key.
>> and is it an instant type of adhesive that means you can play the instrument immediately after a pad has been installed with it? <<
No, it takes much longer to dry, at least a few minutes, usually more for more reliablity of the gluing. I wouldn't play the instrument before for reasons I mentioned above.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2010-08-06 13:42
I totally agree with what Clarnibass wrote.
IMO it gives ample response to the statement David Spiegelthal made, "I continue to be amazed at the resistance to using the stuff from other (highly esteemed) members of this BB."
When I install a pad, I want to know within seconds of having it aligned how I want it for good sealing, that it is totally secure in the pad cup, so that I can move on to the next key's pad without worrying about disturbing the previous one.
If I need to re-align a pad that somebody else installed, which is all the more likely if slow-setting adhesive was used, then I need the glue to soften when a little heat is applied.
For these reasons, IMO and that of probably 99.9% of conscientious technicians, silicon adhesive thwarts the efforts of a meticulous technician. Therefore, the promotion of silicon adhesive for pad installation astonishes me. It seems to ignore the parameters required for good padding work.
As for contact adhesive... It performs exceedingly poorly as a filler. As long as a key cup is domed, &/or the back of the pad is not pretty much perfectly flat, &/or the key cup is not aligned to an accuracy of say 0.02 mm with the tone hole, any glue needs to be a successful filler. Therefore contact adhesive is unsuitable 99.5% of the time.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-08-06 14:00
The reason why I prefer contact adhesive, shellac and superglue over other adhesives/fillers is they are instant.
Evo-Stik provides an instant and secure bond between wood and cork when used for tenon corks, metal and cork for key corks (and sax crook corks) and other non-porous materials and they can be trimmed to shape and sanded down as soon as they're bonded.
Shellac has good floating/levelling capabilities and also hardens very quickly so any pads that have been installed and seated will remain as they've been installed so no worry of them moving if a key has to be removed and replaced.
I prefer superglue and wood dust over any other filler (eg. filling in cracks, screw or worm holes in body joints) as it too is instantly workable and the desired finish is achieved within the hour instead of having to wait for other fillers (such as epoxy) to go off which can take anything up to 24 hours before they can be worked on. However, I will use epoxy for replacement tenons, metal socket linings and tenon sleeves, sax bell to body joints and similar places where a permanent or structural joint is needed.
I prefer the immediacy of these adhesives as it means there's no waiting time for them to do their job, so I can get on with mine.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2010-08-06 14:25
"I prefer superglue and wood dust over any other filler (eg. filling in cracks, screw or worm holes in body joints) as it too is instantly workable and the desired finish is achieved within the hour instead of having to wait for other fillers (such as epoxy) to go off which can take anything up to 24 hours before they can be worked on."
As often as not, when using epoxy, I position an incandescent desk lamp close to the item, and that gently heat carries out a complete cure in a fraction of the time.
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Author: jasperbay
Date: 2010-08-07 15:17
Epoxy curing can be speeded up with a lighbulb, etc., but be aware that epoxy (unlike CA glue) has very poor adhesion to oily wood like grenadilla, and always remains somewhat flexible (again unlike CA). This flexibility, (or impact resistance, when used to assemble golf clubs, etc.) can be a good thing, or a bad thing, depending on the job at hand. Over the years, I'm using more CA glue, and less epoxy on clarinets, but both should be in your "toolbox". On non-oily woods, the urethane glues like "Gorilla Glue" can be very strong, and are sandable/stainable, but the foaming-gap filling properties can be messy and disconcerting. Probably best left for furniture, gunstocks, etc.
Clark G. Sherwood
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2010-08-07 20:05
Chris P.,
You mention Evo-Stik, but searching for that name, I'm coming up with a couple dozen adhesives under that brand name.
Which Evo-Stik product are you referring to?
Thanks.
B.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2010-08-08 04:00
bmcgar, any good contact glue would be good, it doesn't have to be Evostik Impact, which AFAIK is hard to find in USA. But don't just get any type, some are really not as good and name or price doesn't necessarily mean much. The most expensive type I tried was one of the worst. I use and prefer contact glue made by Bison (I used to use Evostik).
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2010-08-08 11:15
Note to readers, in case there is any ambiguity:
Use of contact glue for key and tenon corks, as is referred to by Clarnibass, is the usual and good choice. However that must not be confused with the topic of this thread, the use of contact glue for pads, which is very difficult to justify.
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Author: jyoung4225
Date: 2010-08-09 00:04
Hi Gordon,
Thanks for the tip about using an incandescent light bulb to help speed the process of epoxy curing. I'll definitely be giving that a try the next time I need to glue in some tone hole inserts.
-Justin-
For all your woodwind repair needs:
http://www.justin-young.net
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2010-08-09 07:32
According to the maker of one of the slow setting epoxies I'm using, heating the the area to about 40c-50c will not only cure the glue faster but will also make it stronger. I found that with the strongest slow epoxy I've tried, even this hot it can take up to two days to cure. But it definitely helps and is faster and seems stronger. In similar use, in about 25c, even after two days it was still slightly soft.
Chris, after Evostik changed to the new formula I liked it less than before. I ent to some stores and bought a bunch of contact glues to try (also ordered some online to try). Bison, which was average price, was best, and actually better than I liked even the original Evostik (or maybe the same, hard to remember exactly). I use the regular one from tube (I don't like the cans), Bison Kit Universal http://www.bison.net/US/en/view.do?UID=af993e0fc2c7dd2dc07b98
Bison also makes a gel contact glue like what you described. I use this for felt, usually before using the regular glue, so it doesn't soak. I actually get this from UK since our local Bison distributer doesn't import it, Bison Tix Gel http://www.bison.net/US/en/view.do?UID=af993e0fc2c7dd2dc07ba0
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