 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Sarah Elbaz
Date: 2010-03-07 09:18
In another thread Tony Pay wrote:
"I find myself fortunately free from the constraints laboured under by dogmatic, lay-down-the-law legendary-teache-worshippers."
"Just to get a flavour of why this sort of thing annoys me: imagine a 'legendary teacher' being able to instruct an infant in what they 'should' be doing with their tongue in the first couple of years of their life, in order to speak. (And gaining money and prestige out of doing so, regardless of whether or not it worked in any particular case.)"
How many people here recognize the name Elona Feher? I suppose that most people never heard about her.
How many people recognize the names Pinkas Zukermann, Shlomo Mintz, Shmuel Ashkenazi, Hagai Shahm? All of them are students of Elona Feher- not a bad harvest for one teacher.
Also in the clarinet world there are some legendary teachers. Sabine Meyer, Martin Frost, Wolfgang Meyer and Reiner Wehle are all students of Hans Deinzer.
Elona Feher and Hans Deinzer didn't do it for money and they knew that their students will make much more money than they do and we don't see their pictures in newspapers. But they took new students again and again and worked with them for years until they were ready to be musicians.
Most of the people that I mentioned above are very devoted teachers too. Why? Do they need it to make their living? No. They feel obliged to teach because they know that they have such great careers because someone was very generous with them.
Some people weren't so lucky and had to learn everything alone. It's also possible that there was a great teacher nearby but they wanted to do it alone! Being a student of a great teacher doesn't mean that you are" the constraints laboured under by dogmatic, lay-down-the-law legendary-teacher" it just means that you are humble enough to learn from someone else- who knows- and that you get a good start and then find your own way and go on. You don't have to worship a teacher to be a student- you just need to respect your teacher.
The only thing that "legendary teachers" get is respect.
Sarah
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2010-03-07 12:11
Sarah, I think your point is well-taken, but there's a difference between the fine teachers you describe, who've earned respect from successful students who had the good sense to listen and learn, and the ego-driven "legendary" teachers who enjoy being legends a bit too much. That second type of teacher attracts needy, even masochistic students, hero-worshippers who on some level want to be browbeaten and abused by the Great Genius. If the dictatorial teacher also happens to know what s/he's doing, some of those students may learn a great deal and go on to enhance the teacher's legendary status.
But, that type of teacher also leaves a lot of wreckage behind: musicians without professional skills who despairingly quit their instruments instead of going on as music-loving amateurs; aspiring musicians who reduce their chances of success by slavishly following the dictator's demands for methods not adapted to individual students' needs; in the worst cases, students who become seriously depressed, while the triumphant teacher ignores the warning signs and ridicules them as weaklings -- always knew they were weaklings, hah-hah!
My aunt, the late Mary VanEss, was a career counsellor at Juilliard for a number of years. She complained to me about one such teacher, violinist Ivan Galamian. He was famous, and a first-rate teacher in many ways. I don't think anybody's credibly questioned his technical competence to teach. He deserved respect. Many of his students, the ones who survived him, went on to acclaimed professional careers.
But, my aunt said that a high percentage of his students needed counselling and in many cases were too afraid of showing "weakness" to ask for help. Other faculty members kept an eye on Galamian students and tried to spot the warning signs that called for intervention. He was abusive. His students dropped out at a higher rate than other teachers' students and had much higher rates of attempted suicide. Several succeeded at suicide, when, according to their legendary teacher, they had failed as musicians. Maybe they wouldn't have "failed" if his teaching methods hadn't been quite so rigid and punitive.
Another kind of wreckage is the former student who adopts the legendary teacher's dogmatism to become a legend in his or her own mind, without possessing the legendary teacher's skills. That type of student overcomes the fear and loathing by becoming the thing s/he had feared.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
Post Edited (2010-03-07 12:15)
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2010-03-07 13:52
Lelia -
You raise an important question about teaching and playing at the highest level. Violin, along with piano, is the best instrument for a solo career, with a big repertory and familiarity to audiences. Yet the probability that even an exceptional young violinist will become a soloist is vanishingly small, and even the possibility of making a living as an orchestra section player is tiny. And there are 30 violinists in an orchestra, but only 3 or 4 clarinetists, so the chances for clarinetists are microscopic.
Galamian took only students who had the talent to become professional players. I think he pushed his students as hard as he did for two reasons. First, even a highly talented student reaches the top level of playing only with such intense work. Second, making a living as a musician is fiercely competitive. If a student can't take that level of stress, it's better to find out sooner rather than later. Probably the greatest violin talent of the mid-20th century was Michael Rabin. Yet the stress of a career at the top soon broke him, so much that he had to be institutionalized. Even Valdimir Horowitz had to take long periods off to recover. Leon Fleischer and Garry Graffman practiced so long and hard that each of them lost the use of his right hand.
The legendary violin teacher Otakar Ševčík was (in)famous for making is students practice so long and hard that their fingertips bled on the strings. Marcel Tabuteau was one of the most sadistic, cruel teachers on record. His students filled all the top positions, but only the very best survived his teaching.
This clash of cruelty and talent is common, and the world of music is eager to hear the supreme performers, even when players only slightly less talented are crushed in the process. Think of the thousands of boys with beautiful voices who were castrated on the one in a million chance of becoming a Farinelli.
So long as Juilliard turns out soloists, it needs counselors like your aunt to care for students who have dedicated their lives to that career, but must come to terms with being unable to achieve it.
Certainly Galamian was unnecessarily cruel. But even the most sympathetic great teacher must motivate top students to be overachievers and tell students who don't have the final increment of talent or motivation that it's time to look elsewhere.
I can, fortunately and unfortunately, document this from my own experience. I was a hot clarinetist in high school and seriously thought I would replace Robert McGinnis in the New York Philharmonic. When I got to Interlochen, Oberlin and the West Point Band, I found that I was in a higher league, where I was merely ordinary. Nevertheless, I became friendly with Kalmen Opperman, a truly great teacher and player, and worked with him informally for several years.
Finally, Kal told me, "Look, you have the talent, but it's time to decide what you're going to do. You can dedicate your life to the clarinet 100%, or you can do it as a hobby. If you're willing to put aside everything else, I'll help you. If you can't, you're wasting my time. I've dedicated my life to helping the best students become the best players. Spending time with you is fine, but not when it takes time from my other students who have both the talent and the dedication to spend all their time playing clarinet."
I realized what I had dimly known for a long time -- that I couldn't take the narrowness and stress of becoming a professional clarinetist. I became a lawyer -- a much less stressful and single-minded career.
A career in music, at least at the top, can wreck anyone except the handful of world-class players at the summit. I was lucky to have Kal confirm that I wasn't going to be a full-time player.
The world of "other" players need help from counselors like your aunt to help them find a way to live in the foothills rather than the top of Mount Everest. And there's certainly no excuse for subjecting anyone but the vanishingly rare supreme talent to that level of pressure.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-03-07 13:56
Legendary or not a truly great teacher does not insist that every student play exactly the same way or do everything only the way they do, if it works best for them or not, or insist on them using only what they use. I know I've said it many, many times before but a truly good teacher teaches to the individual not to the book or their dogmatic ways. I can't speak of every "legendary" teacher because I've only studied with a few of them but the "legendary" Leon Russianoff was an opened minded teacher. He taught to the student, approached every student as an individual in both style, equipment and physical needs. That's the reason you never hear of the "Russianoff" sound. It's because all of his students that became known professional players sound like themselves not like Leon Russianoff. He was proof that you can be a "legendary" teacher and not be a "dogmatic" teacher at the same time. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: weberfan
Date: 2010-03-07 14:55
An interesting thread.
The issues under discussion here are sadly unaddressed in the otherwise fascinating article (link below)---though as you'll see, the facts may be long lost to history.
It's an obituary in today's New York Times about Patricia Travers, a violin prodigy who, at age 23, vanished from public performance. She died last month at 82. One can only speculate as to her reasons for abandoning a concert career...or any career in music. Who WERE her teachers? We can't know, but one wonders if hers is a case of prodigy syndrome, as well. Lorin Maazel, who is quoted, was himself a prodigy. But he kept going.
[http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/07/arts/music/07travers.html?ref=obituaries]
Post Edited (2010-03-07 21:49)
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-03-07 15:36
Check out the posting about the Columbus Symphony in Ohio, there are now some interesting statements about the job market related to teaching.
By the way Ken, there are several professional musicians that have multiple degrees in various other majors though I agree it is difficult for many students to do that. One of my best students in the past decade was a double degree major in computer science and clarinet. Of course the clarinet suffered but what a great player he could have been, he was so talented it came very natural to him. He has a great job in computer science now. That's a tough double degree. I always liked having double degree majors because I know they would at least make a living and enjoy playing the clarinet even if they didn't do it full time. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
Post Edited (2010-03-07 15:43)
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2010-03-07 19:32
I suppose, since Sarah started off by quoting me, that I should be clear that it wasn't so much the so-called 'legendary' teachers I was complaining about in my first post, but the tendency for other people -- the dogmatic, lay-down-the-law worshippers of them -- to use those teachers' advices inappropriately, and claim a sort of 'truth' for them that simply doesn't belong in the world of clarinet playing.
I made a post to the Klarinet list:
http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/Klarinet/2005/04/000172.txt
...that explains this.
In the second post, my point was rather to underline the uselessness of direct instruction for acquiring the appropriate tongue movements for effective clarinet playing, as Wheeler is at pains to explain.
Consider: the teacher doesn't know what they do themselves; they have no vocabulary for communicating what they do themselves even if they did know what they did; the student, very probably with a different physical makeup, doesn't understand what the teacher says; and finally, the student doesn't know what they have themselves done in order to see whether or not they have followed the incomprehensible instructions.
And remember, I'm a teacher myself, so I would be unlikely to be dismissing the profession out of hand.
By the way, I am also a performer, and I find exaggerated all this stuff about cut-throat competition, intense pressure, and whatnot. I notice that people who actually do the job with some competence lead quite happy and fulfilled lives, and only rarely characterise what they do in this way.
Some of the people on this list think otherwise; but then, to borrow a phrase from a famous British trial witness, "They would, wouldn't they?"
Tony
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Author: salzo
Date: 2010-03-07 23:32
"Consider: the teacher doesn't know what they do themselves; they have no vocabulary for communicating what they do themselves even if they did know what they did; the student, very probably with a different physical makeup, doesn't understand what the teacher says; and finally, the student doesn't know what they have themselves done in order to see whether or not they have followed the incomprehensible instructions."
Reminds me of a lesson I had in college, with a "legendary" teacher. He was trying to explain double tonguing. Said I had to do it like "DuGUHDUGUH. I kept trying, and was not getting anywhere. Finally, I played the passage using my own rapid technique.
"Thats it!"
"It is?"
"I always suspected that you were double tonguing, because you articulate rapidly."
"But I am not doing what you told me to do?"
"What are you doing?"
"Well, Im kind of placing my tongue on the lower lip and seperating the notes without placing my tongue on the reed."
"You are anchor tonguing! You cant do that!"
So I continued to attempt his method, decided it wasnt going to work, and went back to my way. He remarked how good it sounded, that now I can double tongue-all the while, i am doing exactly what he told me I could not do.
I learned a lot that lesson.
When I am teaching, I dont care what my students are doing, but what it sounds like. I do not have the same physical make up as my students(or anyone else). If they are having issues with something, I will of course explain to them the way I would do it-but if it aint broke, I aint going to fix it.
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2010-03-08 02:27
I'm like many of you. When I was an undergrad, working on my degree in music ed., I thought about going for a masters in performance. I decided against it because I realized that this kind of career just wasn't for me.
Many of you have great stories about legendary clarinet performers and teachers, and perhaps one of you can confirm a story I heard many years ago. According to the story (which I heard from my clarinet professor in college) there was a famous clarinetist who taught (I think) at Juilliard. He was an excellent performer, but he'd always get very nervous. This became such a problem that he gave up performing and devoted all of his energies to teaching.
Could it have been Arthur Christmann? This name is sticking in my mind for some reason, but I might be thinking of the wrong person. If it wasn't Christmann, does anyone know who it was?
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2010-03-08 12:10
>>By the way, I am also a performer, and I find exaggerated all this stuff about cut-throat competition, intense pressure, and whatnot. I notice that people who actually do the job with some competence lead quite happy and fulfilled lives, and only rarely characterise what they do in this way.
>>
I've seen some of what you mean about the exaggeration. Some people who don't become professionals do like to tell what may sound like horror stories when they're really not. My husband, for instance, studied violin intensively with Mischa Mischakoff, who was Toscanini's concertmaster for 17 years and had a reputation as a real meanie. He used to hit my husband with a fly swatter, grab his left-hand fingers and claw and pinch them hard if notes were out of tune, scream at him and so forth. He took Kevin to Chatauqua summer camp with him and sent home a note (which Kevin's mother has preserved in a scrapbook) that says, "Thank you for the salami. Someday I may teach your stupid son to play the violin."
But, in reality, Kevin doesn't remember the years with Mischakoff as damaging. Far from it. Kevin and his parents loved that man and they tell these awful-sounding stories with glee. Kevin had too much stage-fright to consider a career in music. He went to law school instead, and after a long career with the EPA he turned his hobby of restoring antique books into a second career. But he's also an active amateur violinist playing in four different chamber groups, thanks to the dictatorial Mischakoff. So, in Kevin's case, the Mischakoff stories definitely qualify as lurid exaggerations for the entertainment of an audience. However, he's psychologically sturdy, always has been, and had a far different outcome from some other, more vulnerable Mischakoff students who couldn't take that kind of treatment and got pretty seriously screwed-up. When they tell the same kinds of stories about the same man, they're speaking as abuse victims and not exaggerating at all.
Tony, since the people with whom you perform do their jobs at a far higher level than just "some competence," it's not surprising that they feel happy and fulfilled. I should hope so. They're successful and they know they earned their success. You're also dealing with your own students. You have a reputation as a good teacher who's not dogmatic or sadistic. You're probably helping your students find an appropriate balance between imagination, ambition and the real world.
But there's a darker world down below where kids really do get discouraged not just from pursuing professional careers (whence many of them do need to be discouraged for their own good) but from living to do something else. Check out the suicide and attempted suicide statistics from Curtis I. in Philadelphia, for instance. Too many teachers apply the same pressure to the wannabes that they apply to the kids with realistic dreams.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2010-03-08 17:39
>> the uselessness of direct instruction for acquiring the appropriate
>> tongue movements for effective clarinet playing
The student can always show their superior skills by sticking out their tongue towards the teacher... 
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2010-03-08 23:53
MRN, thanks for the information and for the link about Russianoff. I remember ordering Olivieri reeds and other assorted things from his business in New York in the late 70s and 80s. On a visit to New York in the mid-80s, I stopped by his store and met him. I remember having a pleasant chat with him, and he was as nice as could be.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-03-09 00:16
I studied with Russianoff from 59 -62, he had already stopped performing in public by then several years before Fred J. studied with him. I don't know when he no longer performed but it was before I, and certainly Fred J. studied with him.
Leon was a real Mench, respectful and a gentleman and a great teacher because as I said before, he approached every student differently. He never fixed something that wasn't broken just because it was done differently then he would have done it. ESP
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Author: David Niethamer
Date: 2010-03-09 00:38
Stephen Clark wrote an excellent dissertation about Russianoff, which you can get from the current incarnation of University Microfilms. He interviewed Russianoff as well as about a dozen of his most famous students. It creates what seems to me (as a former student) to be a pretty accurate picture of the man and the teacher, and how they intertwined.
David
niethamer@aol.com
http://members.aol.com/dbnclar1/index.html
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2010-03-09 13:00
Sarah, I love that video! Shameless plug: Awhile ago, I wrote a short piano piece called "Minuet: The Little Genius." If you go to my home page link below my signature, the piece is available there as an audio and also as printable sheet music (free of charge).
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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